1" Groups at 25 yards

[AZRedhawk44]

I need some help getting to this standard.

I can do it in my sleep from a benchrest... but I don't think that will be particularly useful either hunting or on "the day."  In other words, when I actually have to USE my rifle rather than play games over 0.05" group size variances.

I went to Ben Avery this morning and I had several photocopies of Fred's 1" squares.

My rifle is set up as follows:
Springfield M1A Scout 18" barrel
ARMS #18 mount
Leupold high QRW rings (to have the scope eyepiece clear the rear aperture sight)
Leupold FX-2 4x33 scope
Leather M1907 sling

If the squares were 2" on a side, I'd be golden.

But they're not.  They're one inch.

I don't have co-witnessing set up with the scope and the irons... I have to use the scope unless I remove it.  Shooting at these little boxes, I have to aim about 1.25" above the square to tag it.  Where my scope is set up right now, I am dead-on at 100 yards from a bench, and hitting pie plate accuracy off-hand with the M1907 sling technique either standing or kneeling.

I really like this scope, and I don't have any plans on removing it.  It's low magnification (giving me a very large field of view), and the fine reticle keeps the target crisp in my sights.  I don't have perfect vision and this scope was very carefully chosen to set up this scout rifle for hunting and "homeland defense" use, not to be a NRA HighPower competition rifle or a traditionalist's M14.

Would I have better success if I had a faster means by which to adjust the scope's elevation, and raised the thing 4-5MOA for shooting at 25 yards, then lowered it back down for "real" shooting?  Right now, I have to unscrew the caps over the elevation adjuster and use a screwdriver or coin to adjust.  Not exactly "field-friendly."

What about these?
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/productview?saleitemid=899510&t=11082005


The Stoney Point target knobs say they are not for "newer" leupold scopes that do not have the "coin slots in the adjustment turrets."  Is the flathead screwdriver slot the same as the coin slot on leupold scopes?  Is this a worthwhile investment if I intend to continue using this particular scope on my rifle?

And what can I do to shrink my 1.5-2" off-hand groups at 25 yards down to sub-1" groups (besides shooting more often)?  My current plans are increased weight lifting to reduce the "wobble" I am giving the rifle, along with weekly practice at the range, along with daily dry-fire practice.

[Bravo]

I've never used the Stoney Point stuff, so you're on your own there. Likewise, I don't know the FX2 specifically.

Kenton Industries does some good knobs, and they'll mark them to your spec. For contrast, the Stoney Point uses numbers 1,2,3,4 and they're just numbers. If you're going to shoot at 600, what do you dial? Well, you dial whatever number you've figured out corresponds with your dope at 600 - let's say half-way between 8 and 9 for instance. You've just got to know that half way between 8 and 9 is always 600 yards.

The Kenton will let you state where you want the numbers and marks. So you say '4 MOA from the "5" mark I want the "6" mark' and they do that. But you've got to let 'em know how many clicks between each mark. Oh, and once you do that, changing your load is a no-no.

Or you can go the route I did with my M25 (M14 on steroids) - use the Mark4 M3 dials, and load your ammo to follow the trajectories on the dials. I use the 30-06 dial on mine, but I've got 4" more barrel than you do. With those dials, once you get the ammo sorted out, it's a matter of 'target at 700 yards, dial "7" and send'. It's literally that simple.

Massive changes in AO will change things though, but you'll be close. For instance, I'm well above 1 mile in elevation. When I go to 1500 feet elevation, my dope isn't right on. Well, it is out to 400, but then I had to start cutting back a half MOA. You get the idea.

If you have a load you love, 'cause it shoots well, etc, and you've got an M3 scope, even Leupold will carve you a custom dial.

And lastly, this is IN NO WAY supposed to be a substitution for memorizing your dope! I used the dials as crutches for too long, and hosed myself that way. OK, so you've got your stick setting at the 100 yard zero, no wind. It's late at night, and you're shooting by moonlight, etc. You've got your target nailed dead-on at 400 yards....... how many clicks are you going to go up to get on target? Yeah, too dark to see those little marks, better be good at counting clicks with your fingers as you're dialing.

Hope that helps somewhat.

[AZRedhawk44]

And lastly, this is IN NO WAY supposed to be a substitution for memorizing your dope! I used the dials as crutches for too long, and hosed myself that way. OK, so you've got your stick setting at the 100 yard zero, no wind. It's late at night, and you're shooting by moonlight, etc. You've got your target nailed dead-on at 400 yards....... how many clicks are you going to go up to get on target? Yeah, too dark to see those little marks, better be good at counting clicks with your fingers as you're dialing.

Roger and copy on that.  I had no intention of "reading" the stoney knobs... more "feeling" them for how many MOA I am moving.  I shoot 150-ish FMJ (practice), 165 BTSP (hunting) and 168 BTHP (fun and pride), which all have different velocities and trajectories.  I don't plan to cheat my dope.

I do want the Stoney's to read "0" at 100 yards though for one of my loads at least.

Anything else I can do to reduce my wobble on target besides what I listed?

[Bravo]

I'm the wrong one to ask for advice on offhand. Back in the DCM days, I called it my 'awfulhand'. My points came from prone slowfire and to a lesser extent the rapidfire stages. Combined with the awfulhand, I was about average.

The thing that works for me (to the modicum it does) is breath control and keeping my left hand more in a Palma position than a highpower position.

On feeling the clicks, I find it easier to get where I'm going by feel (dope by braille?) with 1 MOA clicks than 1/4 MOA clicks. That said, I'm saving my pennies for a S&B PMII with 1/2 MOA clicks. Heck, it's just 230,000 pennies or so, eh?

[Old Dog]

You're unhappy with 1.5 to 2 inch groups offhand?  Off hand means standing up and shooting ten shots (for an QDAQT) in 2 minutes for the purposes of Appleseed.  When I was 20 I'd have looked at a 1.5" group and figured I could do better but not these days.  Congratulations.

[AZRedhawk44]

You're unhappy with 1.5 to 2 inch groups offhand?  Off hand means standing up and shooting ten shots (for an QDAQT) in 2 minutes for the purposes of Appleseed.  When I was 20 I'd have looked at a 1.5" group and figured I could do better but not these days.  Congratulations.

Thanks, but it doesn't feel like I did well.

I shot about 30 rounds in maybe 10 minutes, standing and kneeling.  I had 3 rounds that I could tell right away they were "flinchers" that didn't go where I called them... the rest would be touching black I think, if I had the scope sighted in for 25 yards rather than 100.  First time I've shot at Fred's target here, and I was under the impression that I should be shooting the black off the target before moving on to "funner" targets like the AQT or the Redcoat targets.

[Old Dog]

At the risk of Fred getting after me for "dampening" your efforts at improvement let me say that everytime I've seen the 1" squares used folks were firing in the prone position.  Keep working at it and you ought to "clean" the QDAQT.  Get a set of targets and the guide from Fred and you'll see how big the standing/offhand target is.

[funfaler]

The reason for the 1" group is that is equal to 4 moa, and 4 moa is the minimum accuracy required for nearly 100% hits on a 20" target, at 500 yards.  So, if you think that a reasonable goal is off hand shots at 500 yards, then, indeed, you will need to strive toward that goal.

Reality dictates that off hand shots beyond 200 yards start to get tough, so the 1" groups are really intended for the position that you will be using, if engaging a 500 yard target, that would be prone for most everyone.

I have found that I can get a better group with iron sights than I can with a scope, I just don't have the confidence to squeeze the trigger, when I can see how much the muzzle is moving.  That said, you should be able to get the 1" groups, at 25 meters, that is your overall goal.

The 1917 sling, for my money, is just a bit more difficult to get set correctly than it needs to be.  The USGI web sling is tough, easily adjustable, and field friendly, not leather.  You might get some better results by making the change.

The Stoney Point knobs are nice, had them on a Tasco, though the Tasco was not up for having the extra weight on the turrets, as it broke the turret off.   

For "field" use, you will want your scope/sights set to BSZ "Battle Sight Zero" which is 250 meters/275 yards, for the 308.  This will enable you "Point and shoot" out to @325 yards, you would make sight adjustments at ranges beyond 300 yards.  A 100 yard zero is fine for hunting, but not field use, as you will be 21" low at 300 yards, likely resulting in a miss, but at BSZ, you would only be @6" high at 100 yards, still a hit.

Get Fred's Riflemans Guide, and get to the Appleseed shoot at Ben Avery, this fall.  You will learn a ton, get help with any issues that you are having and you will achieve the 1" groups.

Good luck and happy shooting

[1911Ron]

AZRedhawk44 I found a nylon web sling for the M-14 at Allied surplus on 43rd ave. and Northern on the North East corner, Ron and company are good people( they liked the appleseed idea) he should still have some if not Pm me and we can work out getting together and i'll get you one (i've been buying them a few at a time)

[Bravo]

For "field" use, you will want your scope/sights set to BSZ "Battle Sight Zero" which is 250 meters/275 yards, for the 308.  This will enable you "Point and shoot" out to @325 yards, you would make sight adjustments at ranges beyond 300 yards.  A 100 yard zero is fine for hunting, but not field use, as you will be 21" low at 300 yards, likely resulting in a miss, but at BSZ, you would only be @6" high at 100 yards, still a hit.

The reason I advocate a 100 yard zero is because on a long-range rig that's the way it should be done. With a 100 yard zero (and an understanding of your drop dope) using mil holdovers (that mildot reticle is good for more than just ranging!) you can go to 600 -some loads 700- without touching the knobs. And you're doing it precisely. My dope, which of course is dope that came from shooting it, says that I put the 5 mil stadia on the target at 700 and get POA/POI.

There are folks that say you should set it at 500, and do the same thing with the mil holdovers out to 1K, but I don't see that. Here's why.....

If you've got a target popping his pretty little blue-bonneted head up at 500 or so, you've got time to raise that reticle up and wait for the shot. So far, so good, eh? But if you get jumped and need to 'point and click' the reticle is still set at 100 and you're right on. Where speed is required (up close) you've still got it - with the scope zeroed at 500, you've lost the 'point and click' capability.

And 21" low at 300 with a 100 yard zero? My load drops 2.5 MOA from 100 to 300, which is 7.5 inches - a long ways from 21". 21" at 300 would be 7 MOA, about 450 yards or so with a 100 yard zero. But it's easier to use a 0.7 mil holdover at 300 and drop 'em.

Now to show you that I'm a complete hypocrite (HA! DOUBLE HA!) when it comes to iron sights I agree with your statement completely.

[Grin Reaper]

AZRedHawk, if I could consistently shoot 2" offhand groups, I'd be more than happy with that. 
The AQT stage that seems to give most Appleseeders fits is Stage 2 -- you load 2 rds, then at the "fire" command you drop to a seated or kneeling position, put both rounds into one target, reload with 8 rds, re-aquire your NPOA on the first target, fire another 3 rds into it, then shift to the 2nd target, re-aquire NPOA, and fire the remaining 5rds into the 2nd target -- all in only 50 seconds!
Sounds like you're ready for a new challenge -- I'd recommend this one.

[AZRedhawk44]

So I'm not really supposed to be able to hit Fred's 1" squares reliably unless I'm prone?  Okay.

I'm going to order the Stoney Point knobs I think... and mark the turret myself for 25/250-ish (whatever it turns out to zero at), and 100.  Those should be "close enough" with any of the loads I may use to be accurate, and I can write down or memorize any variations and adjust accordingly.

I really favor a 100yd zero, so I think I'll stay there unless shooting at "paper" that is supposed to be farther away than it really is.

Reaper:  I'm shooting those 2" groups considerably slower than I'm supposed to, it sounds like.  And I still had 3 fliers that I couldn't call as true shots. 

Funfaler:  I've got Fred's guide, and a package of AQT targets from him.  Also got a shooting jacket.  That's where I got the 1" squares I was using the other day.  I'll have me a try at stage two like Reaper suggests.

[Grin Reaper]

Reaper:  I'm shooting those 2" groups considerably slower than I'm supposed to, it sounds like.  And I still had 3 fliers that I couldn't call as true shots. 

Gotcha.  Well, your next move can be to work on your cadence.  Hint -- If you can make 1 shot per 3 seconds ('Rifleman's rapid-fire'), you should have NO PROBLEM with the time-limits for any stage of the AQT.

[GunRights4US]

I'm glad someone asked for clarification on that 1" thing.  I have no problem getting a 1" group from the prone.  Offhand's a different story!

[Fred]

   Sorry, guys. Your goal is to fire every shot into 4 MOA - standing, sitting, prone, or any other position.

   Sure, it's easy in prone, and much harder in standing.

   But did anyone say anything about 'shooting should be easy?'

   A goal is a standard you work to meet. It does not diminish the goal if you do not always attain the goal.

   But I have seen many an offhand shot at the RWVA knock the 500-yard popup down. So, yes, it can be done.

   And, if it can be done, you should be doing it...

   In field shooting, there will be no guarantee you will have a clear shot from prone or sitting. Sometimes you may have to take your 500-yd shot standing.

   Might as well be ready, willing - and able - to do it...

[Fred]

     In fact, check out http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=536.0 on this very board, for more info...

[AZRedhawk44]

Sorry, guys. Your goal is to fire every shot into 4 MOA - standing, sitting, prone, or any other position.

Roger that.

I ordered the stoney point knobs, so I don't have to correct at 25yds with a guestimate.  Should take a week to get to me.  I'll give it another "go" once they arrive.

[raf]

Sorry, guys. Your goal is to fire every shot into 4 MOA - standing, sitting, prone, or any other position.

Roger that.

I ordered the stoney point knobs, so I don't have to correct at 25yds with a guestimate.  Should take a week to get to me.  I'll give it another "go" once they arrive.

Sorry, but the SP knobs do not come with calibrations sufficiently fine to allow "dialing-in".  You will have to count/feel clicks (not easy on some scopes) in order to change aimpoint.  You can make bands which go around the SP knob and on which you can mark different ranges.

TANSTAAFL.

[ken grant]

 I agree that a 4MOA group is a goal to shoot for.
What I wonder is how many can do it on demand from standing not using optics.
Heck, I even wonder who can do it using optics.

[AZRedhawk44]

Sorry, but the SP knobs do not come with calibrations sufficiently fine to allow "dialing-in".  You will have to count/feel clicks (not easy on some scopes) in order to change aimpoint.  You can make bands which go around the SP knob and on which you can mark different ranges.

I was planning on using some reflective sight paint to mark a couple of reference points on the knob, if the pre-existing markings don't work out right.  I also don't have any problem "feeling" the clicks if need be.  I'm just trying to avoid using a screwdriver all the time to adjust the elevation for the shot.

[Old Dog]

My reply was that for the purposes of the AQT a 1" group on the standing stage is well above what is required to score 50 points.  No doubt being able to put 10 shots into a 1" square at 25 meters is great, its a goal that would take most of us a lot of practice to attain.  It would probably be easier to do with a scoped .22 than an iron sighted M1 or M1A.  Anybody got any pictures of their target (with 10 shots into 1" at 25 meters) to share with us?  I've got 5 shots tearing 1 hole (in and at the bottom of the V) from the Feb. RBC, but the other 5 are a little more spread out than that.  Is this one of those "postal match" things?

[Grin Reaper]

Sorry, guys. Your goal is to fire every shot into 4 MOA - standing, sitting, prone, or any other position.

Fred, Shhhhhhh! I'm trying to set the hook, here! 

My reply was that for the purposes of the AQT a 1" group on the standing stage is well above what is required to score 50 points.  No doubt being able to put 10 shots into a 1" square at 25 meters is great, its a goal that would take most of us a lot of practice to attain.

And that's a very good point.  If you can consistantly pull off a 1" group offhand, you should be able to shoot a Rifleman's score with little difficulty.

[Scout]

I have been working on moving through the target (bottom of the bull to the top) from the standing, and firing when the sights cross the intended impact point. (everythig slows down for one millisecond at the cross) That keeps my movement to a minimum. I am sure I will learn the correct method at BC.

[Fred]

     Let's distinguish between a Rifleman and a person firing 210 or better on the AQT.

     It's a little-known fact that if the Rifleman can put all shots in 4 MOA or strives to, he will score in the 240s on the AQT.

     The AQT score requirement is FAR SHORT of the Rifleman's 4 MOA.

     But it is convenient, and gives a way of tracking progress, and is a fairly easily attainable intermediate goal on the way to becoming rifleman.

     In other words, 210 is not a destination. It is a marker. A place you merely tip your hat as you blast past...

     Remember a Rifleman is more than a score on the AQT.

     He has to be skilled in target detection and range estimation, in addition to 'firing the shot' (which is what the AQT is about).

     He also has to be aware of the heritage, and engaged in the Soft War.

     Heck, the AQT is just a bump on the dog's back!

[GunRights4US]

Yeah but what a FUN bump it is!

[Oohrah]

For the off hand, use a sling.   Hasty or loop, never stand without one!
Some claim useless, but it is one more quiver reducer