Ramseur, NC June 10-11, 2017 KD

[Polonius]

It was a great weekend at Ramseur for a KD Appleseed. We had a full line with 19 shooters (with instructors) on Sunday which meant we did relays. The shooters were a great bunch, and their attitudes were terrific. With the range truck and the van that Fred donated, we were able to hustle up and down to the target line in record time.

We had 5 new riflemen, and 2 re-qualifies. This was a hits-count event, and SpecialKay had a perfect 40!

One new orange hat joined our ranks - Jyorb. Welcome aboard!

This weekend stood out as particularly super for a number of other reasons:

• The weather was outstanding - mid 80's, clear, with a gentle breeze that kept us comfortable, but had little effect on the shooting.
• An amazing turnout of instructors, with some we hadn't seen in a while. It's great to have our old friends back.
• Many of the instructors and shooters stayed at the range. The camaraderie in the evening and around meals made the weekend especially fun.
• Pelon took charge of community breakfasts and dinner on Saturday. Thank you Michael.
• Thaddeus did an outstanding KD lecture.

The event couldn't have gone nearly as well without the hard work of the professional and experienced instructors who showed up. There are literally too many for me to thank them all individually here. However, special thanks go out to Cousin Hart and Thaddeus who ramrodded many parts of the event. Also, I owe a thank you to Don for making sure the range was in good shape in time for the event.

[Thaddeus]

I just doesn't get much better than the KD range at Ramseur!

[Ramblin' Wreck]

I agree it's a nice range. But you need to come to CMP Talladega. 


Wreck

I just doesn't get much better than the KD range at Ramseur!

[PatriotDoc]

Great people.  Good event.  I did learn a lot.  I had greatly anticipated this event because I heard so much about this range and the course, as this is the RWVA Home Range.  It was my first Appleseed KD, and I had high hopes.

But I must say that overall I was very disappointed.  There were simply too many shooters and not enough shooting lanes.  Running "relays" meant we shot only two AQTs on Sunday, and only three overall for the whole weekend.  On Sunday, given the two AQTs and two short 5-string sighters, I sent only 100 rounds down range for the whole day.  On Saturday, we shot four 5-string sighters on the 25 yard range, four 5-shot sighters on the 400 yard range, and one 40-shot AQT.  That's only 80 rounds for Saturday.  So I got to send only 180 rounds down range the whole weekend, and only 140 of these were on the 400 yard range.

Plus, the event was combined on Saturday morning with a one-day Marksmanship Clinic, so we received no new instruction that morning.  I thought that the KD events were for a slightly more advanced shooter.  Maybe I was mistaken to have assumed this.

I have read on these forums, that many, if not most, of the KD events get in 5-6 AQTs.  And that's what we could have done if not for the "relays".  That's one of the reasons I registered for this event.

I know that the registration fee is not large, and that this is a volunteer organization.  But that doesn't mean that the shooters also don't make some sacrifices.  I drove 5.5 hours each way to get there, paid for a hotel room for three nights, and took two precious vacation days off from work. 

If I lived within driving distance, it wouldn't have been so bad.  But this cost me a lot, and the return for what it cost me was disappointing.
It was not what I expected, and I thought it was below the standard that I had experienced at other Appleseed events.

I am still hurting about this, and wondering whether to ever invest so much in an Appleseed event again, or just keep to local events. 

[Maximum Ordinate]

<snip>

I have read on these forums, that many, if not most, of the KD events get in 5-6 AQTs.  And that's what we could have done if not for the "relays".  That's one of the reasons I registered for this event.

<snip>

Thank you for your candid feedback.  Without it, it's impossible for our program to grow and get better.

I won't (can't) speak for your shoot boss, but I've had the privilege of both shooting and leading event events at Ramseur, among other places.  (Full disclosure - I know & respect your shoot boss.  He's a sterling instructor.)

Allocating sufficient classroom time to cover the Three Challenges of a Rifleman... four, mayyyyyyyyybe five, AQTs is normal.  Six is a massive stretch, if all the stars align well and every shooter is well-sorted.  Three is about right shooting in flights.  There are a handful of ranges with electronic targets, and at most we get in six for the weekend (no walking to targets).  For comparison, CMP clinics get ONE qualifying round.  Learn all day and get one chance to earn your pin.

The expectation is shooters at a KD have attended one or more 25M events and have their Rifleman patch (or are close to it).  Because we assume your fundamentals are solid, the focus is applying come-ups and battlesight zero.  Assuming your fundamentals are solid, three AQTs should be plenty to qualify. 

So, Doc... all this said, I hope you stick with us.  We have a KD at CMP's Talladega Marksmanship Park in October.  Consider yourself invited to come down as my personal guest - I'll cover your ticket cost.  Drop me a note if you're interested. 

-MO

[PatriotDoc]

If someone pays for a shooting lane, I think that they should get a shooting lane.  That's my opinion.  If Appleseed is going to overbook the lanes, you should state that plainly in advertising the event.  Unless I missed it, I have not seen such a disclaimer at any Appleseed event.  And it was the first Appleseed event I attended that was overbooked.

This must be what it feels like to get kicked off an overbooked flight by the airlines.

I came to this event to learn and to shoot, not spending half my afternoon watching others shoot.  I also didn't know beforehand that there was to be no live-fire on the range before noon on Sunday.  I was expecting to be shooting all that day.  Had I known that, I probably would not made this trip, especially after also learning that there would be no shooting at the 400 yard range until noon on Saturday.  So really, we got only one day on the 400 yard range, and a good part of that was spent watching others shoot in "relays".

By the way, I have achieved a Rifleman score several times, and I don't give a hang about earning a patch or pin.  I just want to learn and practice.  I had never fired a rifle beyond 100 yards before this event, so I had high expectations and was excited about what I was going to learn and practice.  So this was disappointing.

This criticism is not meant to impugn any of the instructors there, let alone the shoot boss.  But seriously, if you are going to overbook these events, you need to make this information public on your event page.  I made a big sacrifice in time and money to attend this event, and others may do so in the future.  People deserve that foreknowledge before making the investment.

[Nashville Stage]

PatriotDoc,

I can certainly understand your frustration and feeling short-changed. I would be upset if that happened to me. Perhaps this will be an impetus for those in leadership to reconsider the scheduling & booking policies.

I hope the poor weekend you experienced hasn't soured your taste for Appleseed. Please consider Maximum Ordinate's offer for Talladega. I'm not sure what part of the south that you're in, but if you're looking for "time in the saddle", Talladega is one of the best places to do it (the electronic targets eliminate the time spent walking). Plus, it's a very large, first-rate facility from what I've seen & heard.

Again, apologies for the rough weekend that you experienced. I hope we can make it right for you.

[Specialkay]

PatriotDoc - I certainly understand your frustration, and I'm sure everyone here appreciates your feedback. Appleseed is full of volunteers, and just as you took time off your busy schedule to attend this event, there were over a dozen volunteers that took time out of their busy schedule to show up and further the Appleseed mission. None of the volunteers took time off to work in the heat for free with the mindset of not achieving someone's expectations. I think that should be mentioned. But, limiting events are often outside of their control. All things considered, I think the instruction was FANTASTIC!!!! The shooters were amazing as well.

That having been said, I don't think the event was "overbooked." Everyone wants more range time. No doubt. But I don't believe it was advertised or mentioned anywhere that purchasing a ticket meant you "bought a shooting lane." If that was advertised anywhere, please let me know. Instead, I believe it was advertised that you'd attend the event. If you believed that meant you'd get your own individualized lane, I'm sorry. But I didn't view it that way. I've heard of many 25m AS events where shooters had to go in heats. It isn't limited to KD.

I've attended KD events where there weren't enough targets for the 100, 200, 300 and 400 yd distances. What did that mean? Shoot a 100 and a 200, go down range and move your targets back, then shoot a 300 and a 400. If you have more than 10 shooters (common) looks like you're actually going in 4 heats instead of 2. I've also heard of events where the range truck wasn't working, so you had to huff it up and down the hill to retrieve every target. I think what was worked out was actually very good overall.

I'd also like to say that there was just as much for you to learn when you were "watching others shoot" as there was when you were shooting. A spotting scope was set up behind a .308 shooter to watch the bullet arc as it went down range. It was suggested for shooters to come watch. I saw two shooters of 19 take advantage of the opportunity. There were people on the line with all kinds of different scopes and equipment. Watching what works for them would help you shoot. But most shooters didn't walk around and compare notes (or DOPE information). Some did, but not all. They just sat back and waited. Maybe that was you, maybe not PatriotDoc. But some food for thought.

I shot the event, and stepped out after the first AQT on the second day. I offered my spot in the heat to anyone who wanted to shoot another string, anyone that was close to being KD qualified but needed that little extra range time. No one took me up on the offer and my lane remained cold for the first heat the rest of the day.

In the end, if you expected more or wanted more, I wish you would have mentioned it to someone at the event. I suspect we could have attempted to accomodate more.  Within reason of course, as the 100 yd line only holds 10 targets, there's only so much you can do.

But I would SERIOUSLY consider taking Maximum Ordinate's offer for Talledega. I've never shot at Talladega, but I have shot when Maximum Ordinate is instructing. FANTASTIC WORK he pulls off. And a personal invite with the expectation of making things right for you simply can not be beat.

[baddarryl]

I will agree with Patriot Doc only in that running the Private Regular Appleseed event concurrently with the KD led to far less KD instruction that I had experienced in my previous KD. I had my own frustrations and am grateful to Thaddeous, Pelonios, Pelon, Jonas and all the others for their help. They really take the time that goes above and beyond.

[PatriotDoc]

Thanks to SpecialKay and Maximum Ordinate for the comments, and for Maximum Ordinate's generous offer. 

I believe in the Appleseed mission, and I appreciate that it is a volunteer organization.  I appreciate the passion that these instructors have for shooting and for the mission of training Riflemen.  I am proud to call everyone associated with this organization my countryman.

I did take the opportunity while not shooting to observe how others shot, particularly those who shot well.  I also worked thru come up calculations.  Every time I looked over at the spotting scope, there was someone on it.  So I made the best of it.  It's just that this was my first opportunity to shoot a rifle beyond 100 yards.  It was my first opportunity to learn to shoot a Battle Sight Zero.  I wanted a whole lot more practice.

I don't live in the South.  I drove down there from Washington DC.  So Talladega is a long way off for me.  I also work for an HMO.  In order to schedule a vacation day, I have to ask my employer for it four months in advance.  That is the corporate policy with this HMO.  I hope that you understand that this cost me quite a bit, and I felt there was a lost opportunity cost.

[PatriotDoc]

As an example of what I expected from this event at Ramseur, take a look at a posting from the Shoot Boss at an Appleseed KD event held in New Philadelphia, Ohio, on the same weekend, June 10-11:

"We started the day with a zero confirmation at 100 yds and moved into the full distance AQTs.  The first AQT was shot and we had our first two shooters qualify at full distance in the very first AQT.
Saturday moved forward and by lunch, we had two more shooters qualifed (sic) at full distance.  At lunch on Saturday we shared a presentation on Paul Revere and his accomplishments beyond carring (sic) the word of the British march on Lexington and Concord.
Two more AQTs were shot on Saturday afternoon and the day came to a succesful (sic) close. 
We had some folks that could not join us on Sunday and we were reduced to thirteen shooters.
However, everyone came to work hard on their skills.  After a number of Sunday AQTs, we had made several more full distance riflemen. 
Sunday ended with a challenge to hit steel at 600 yds. "

So, it looks like three AQTs on Saturday, and "a number" of several more AQTs on Sunday.  So it looks like there were at least six AQTs for the weekend, with a fun finish to attempt to ring steel at 600 yards.
Wow.  Now that would have been worth 12 hours of driving, 3 nights in a hotel, 2 tanks of gas and 2 vacation days.

[Specialkay]

I drove down there from Washington DC.  So Talladega is a long way off for me.  I also work for an HMO.  In order to schedule a vacation day, I have to ask my employer for it four months in advance.  That is the corporate policy with this HMO.  I hope that you understand that this cost me quite a bit, and I felt there was a lost opportunity cost.

There is a KD at Sudlersville, MD on October 14th. One day event, but there should be fewer shooters than you saw at Ramseur. Only about an hour and a half for you. No need for a hotel or vacation days (assuming you don't work Saturdays) as you can make it there and back same day. Why not give that one a shot (no pun intended) and compare experiences?

Or there is the KD at Talledaga on October 21-22. Maximum Ordinate is working that one (along with the EXTREMELY qualified Ramblin'Wreck, among others). That should give you enough time to request time off, if you'd like. Plus, you get the added value (no charge) of listening to Maximum Ordinate and Ramblin'Wreck bust each other's chops over who's the better shooter

In the meantime, that gives you four months to work out equipment issues you may, or may not, have had and do some dry fire practice, plus work out your own ballistics calculations for your rifle/ammo combo.

It's just that this was my first opportunity to shoot a rifle beyond 100 yards.  It was my first opportunity to learn to shoot a Battle Sight Zero.  I wanted a whole lot more practice.

So if this was your first time shooting past 100 yds, your first time learning comeups, and your first time with a BSZ, how'd you do? What instruction stuck easily? What instruction was difficult to understand? What were your groups looking like? Did you keep records of all of your targets shot?

[misawa]

Or hold on a bit longer and let's see what comes of our pairing with the Marine Scout Sniper Association... because Quantico is just down the road from you.  And me.

[jemac]

PatriotDoc,  I understand your frustration.  I too traveled just as far as you to attend this KD Appleseed.  I also expected to shoot more AQTs than we did.  However, I came away from the shoot satisfied with the weekend's activities.  I thought the instruction was very useful.  I have never shot using "come ups."  I'm usually the one fiddling incessantly with the knobs on my scope.  I decided to just suspend my usual practices and follow the directions of Thaddeus and cousin hart.  It worked! And I was amazed at how effective this method is.  I chose to camp at the range for the weekend and that experience was just as fulfilling as the AS itself!  As far as your personal sacrifices go, in the spirit of Project Appleseed, try to imagine the sacrifices our forefathers made to make it possible for you to even have the opportunity to attend an event like this.

If at all possible, take MO up on his offer.  The range at TMP is an amazing facility.  There are more than enough lanes to accommodate everyone and the electronic target system there provides instant feedback on your shot placement.  You will not be disappointed!

[Pelon]

PatriotDoc,
I apologize for the way the weekend flowed.  It was partly my fault as I asked the Shoot Boss to share the range with another private group that had scheduling issues and this was the only weekend they could come.  Had I realized that it would cause any issues I would not have asked.  I thank you for your honest feedback so that the same problem is not repeated again.  I have learned a lot reading thru the comments here and hope that the next event I can do my part to make it better.

I would like to offer you another weekend in Ramsuer (for free).  We can pick a weekend when there is nothing planned there and we will have the range to our self for the most part.  You can stay in one of the huts and i'll cook for us both.  If we plan a Friday/Saturday we can shoot all day!  Let me know what I can do to make this work.

Pelon

[Thaddeus]

Thanks to all the participants, instructors, Pelon and Polonius as shoot bosses, and especially to our new KD Riflemen and new Orange Hat.


SpecialKay requalified with a perfect score!
jemac stepped up and took and orange hat!
Plus great shooting by our other new KD riflemen Jeff, Victoria and Yen, Corey, and Adam.

[PatriotDoc]

Such wonderful people in this organization.  I appreciate all these comments. 

SpecialKay: You were one of the shooters I kept my eye on while I was not shooting, so I could watch and learn.  On my AQTs I shot a 27, 30 and 31.  If you took composite scores from the last two AQTs, I would have a 35.  And on the last AQT I hit 6 of 10 shots on the 400 yard target.  I felt I was just getting the hang of this when we were pulling in the targets.  I kept an open mind, learned the BSZ on Saturday and used it, and then on Sunday I reverted to a 100 yard zero and started calculating the come ups, dialing them into my scope and trying it that way. 

One of the other shooters who shot a very good score was using his BDC reticle on his scope along with ballistic calculations on the reticle holdovers obtained from an app.  I have a BDC reticle scope, so Iwanted to try that, too, but didn't get the chance.  He was going to show me the app, but there was no time.
The spread on my groups was also a little wider than what I had achieved while using the reduced targets at my home range in the 25-100 yard range.  So I wanted to work on that, too.

So I did learn, and I was not that disappointed given that I had never fired a rifle beyond 100 yards.  And now I know that this stuff works!  But 400 yard ranges are not around the corner.  I have already signed up for the Sudlerville one-day event.  That will be about a two hour drive.  On 21-22 October I will be in San Diego at the American College of Surgeons meeting, so I wouldn't be able to attend Talladega.  But I will keep that in mind for future events.

Pelon:  You are awesome for such a generous offer.  I will definitely keep that in mind and perhaps take you up one it one day.  I will just have to deal with the challenge of getting the time off four months in advance.  I would absolutely love to come back and shoot at that range and learn from you!!!  What a great offer.

There is one silver lining in all this.  Given my less-than-satisfactory experience, I began looking hard for longer ranges I might be able to travel to reasonably.  It turns out that as a retired military member in the DC area, I am eligible to join the Quantico Shooting Club at Marine Corps Base Quantico.  That would give me access on the weekends to all the Marine Corps ranges there, including the 1,000 yard range.  Plus I bet there are some very knowledgeable people there to learn from.  Marine Corps Base Quantico is only 43 miles from where I live.  So I am very excited.

I will still be attending Appleseed events and have already signed up for more.  When I feel I have achieved enough qualification and experience, I would like to become an Instructor.  My current high Rifleman score is 223, and I now consistently score in the 210-223 range.  I would like to get that consistently higher, and I would like to qualify at Known Distance.  I also want to learn a little more about ballistics, technique and other aspects of Rifleman skills before attempting to teach others.  I have high standards for myself.

Thank you again to all you wonderful people.  I hope to have future contact with you.

[Specialkay]

On my AQTs I shot a 27, 30 and 31.  If you took composite scores from the last two AQTs, I would have a 35.  And on the last AQT I hit 6 of 10 shots on the 400 yard target.  I felt I was just getting the hang of this when we were pulling in the targets.  I kept an open mind, learned the BSZ on Saturday and used it, and then on Sunday I reverted to a 100 yard zero and started calculating the come ups, dialing them into my scope and trying it that way. 

It sounds like you are right on track with your progress.

Did you get a chance to ask an Instructor or IIT to watch you while you were shooting to give you pointers? I only ask because if you're able to get consistent AQT 25m scores of 210-223, you're right where you needed to be to start with. But the KD range has a tendency of pointing out some of the errors we had that we weren't noticing at the 25m range, namely NPOA. In stage 4 of the AQT at 25m, if you mess up your first NPOA, you only fouled up two shots. At the KD range, if you mess up your NPOA on the first target, you messed up your whole score (once you find NPOA, keep it and trust it). Just some thoughts.

I also noticed you mention you were switching between holdovers on a 25m zero (BSZ), comeups on a 100 yd zero, and using reticle holdovers with a ballistics calculator (or you wanted to). If you had several days to work on all of these, this may work. But in a two day KD event, you'll likely get overwhelmed OR not really get a full value on any one particular element. Generally its better to pick one and stick with it. If you shoot a good enough of a score and then want to mess around with another one (provided there is time) you can. But there usually isn't. That may have been a seed to part of your frustration. Maybe not though. Just some more food for thought.

[PatriotDoc]

Thanks again SpecialKay.

I didn't get any one-on-one instruction, and perhaps at future events I will ask for some.  With the "relays", Sunday seemed like a continuous fire drill, and the instructors were more focused on safely conducting the shooting, on lane assignments, group assignments, and target assignments.  I agree with that, particularly the focus on safety.  So I think they were task saturated.

Your points about NPOA are noted.  Late in the event I did observe one shooter in particular who seemed experienced and shot well.  I noticed on the 400 yard course of fire that he took over 30 seconds to get his first shot off.  I think he was really focused on getting that NPOA.  I never got to try this myself, but I will.

And I will probably focus on just one target adjustment technique, as you mentioned.  I would like to do 2-3 AQTs with that one technique before trying another.  If I had my choice, I would start first with a 100 yard zero and work on dialing in the come up adjustments.  Part of why I want to do this is because I have not had this rifle and scope for very long, and I would like to know them better.  Then I would try practicing some more with the BSZ once I knew the capability of the rifle and scope.  I remain curious about the BCD reticle capability, as well.

[jemac]

PatriotDoc,  I used the "come-up" method that was taught this weekend.  Using that, the aiming point for the 400 yard target was about 16" above the center V.  The problem is that 16" above the center V is completely off the target.  When we were in prep before the 4th stage, I noticed that the first bubble on my BDC reticle indexed nicely with the "head" of the target when the crosshairs was about 16" above the center.  I have no idea how many MOA that equated to at the magnification I was using (7x I think) but it didn't really matter.  What it did do was provided me with a repeatable aiming point for each shot.  I haven't used the BDC before, I'm not sure how useful it is for targets less than 400 yards away, but I did find it useful the way I employed it.  It would be fun to try using it on a 1000 yard range like the one at Quantico.  If you get the chance to do that, please let everyone know how that works for you.

jemac

[Specialkay]

I didn't get any one-on-one instruction, and perhaps at future events I will ask for some.  With the "relays", Sunday seemed like a continuous fire drill, and the instructors were more focused on safely conducting the shooting, on lane assignments, group assignments, and target assignments.  I agree with that, particularly the focus on safety.  So I think they were task saturated.

When AQTs get going, Instructors often lean back a little on the "prodding." Nothing worse than having 65 seconds to get out 10 shots and just when you find your NPOA someone kicks your foot and starts lecturing you about the importance of getting your diaphragm off the ground. Some still do, but most let you do your AQT and figure it out for yourself.

Despite all that was going on last weekend, we still had instructors available to shadow you if you wanted. We just didn't know you wanted

[Polonius]

PatriotDoc's comments are accurate, especially when it comes to mixing the two groups. I appreciate your criticism and I apologize that you didn't have the experience you were hoping for. I fully understand that you went to great lengths to join us.

I will explain why I decided to handle the event the way I did, so it can be out in the open and hopefully others may learn from my mistake. When I was approached about allowing the private group to join us Saturday, and that they may not be able to reschedule to another day, I decided that it fit the Appleseed Mission of reaching the maximum number of Americans possible with their rifleman heritage to combine the groups. I thought by keeping the history and instruction especially tight that I could pull it off. This thinking was prideful on my part and ultimately resulted in both groups having a diminished Appleseed experience. The decision to combine the groups lands on my shoulders alone, and I take responsibility for it. For the KD shooters this cost at least one KD AQT on Saturday.

Concerning the issue of running relays, in my experience it is standard Appleseed practice. This is not the first time I have used the technique, nor is it the first time I've seen it used at a KD. If I look at it through the lens of WWFD (what would Fred do), I participated in a KD Appleseed where Fred was SB and we did relays. This weekend we did try to to lessen the impact of running relays by having a full target line at all distances. We had 10 targets at 100 yards and 12 targets each at 200, 300, and 400 yards. No more than 10 targets can physically be posted at 100 yards, and 12 targets at each of the other distances allows enough space between targets to keep cross firing from becoming rampant. Also, we were fortunate enough to have two range vehicles so we could hustle shooters to the target line as quickly as possible.

If PatriotDoc felt he wasn't getting enough individual attention, I wish had just come to me and asked. I would have been glad to help him in any way I could.

I echo what Pelon said regarding PatriotDoc coming back on another weekend if he'd like individual instruction. I'm happy to join you both and help to the best of my ability.

[Former11B]

Good Evening

I'd like to share my experiences from the Ramseur KD event, as it was my first Appleseed event.  I was invited by a Rifleman from previous Appleseed events, so the program DOES work in that regard.

Since I was new to the program, the 4 hour Saturday morning "crash course" with the 25 yard group was actually very helpful as I'd never shot with a web sling, so I was able to shoot some sighters (and IMMEDIATELY felt comfortable moving to the KD range) because I did have some previous experience I was able to fall back on, and in that regard, I did not feel left behind at all.  I did require some hand-holding from the instructors/safeties on the first AQT ensuring I knew the course of fire. The last two AQTs I felt fine.

I also feel that shooters who don't camp are REALLY missing out on the full experience.  I understand some folks may not have a tent or might need a bed due to a medical condition, for example, but otherwise....camping was great and I liked the atmosphere of being at the range the entire weekend

As far as the Appleseed went, I really enjoyed the historical connection between past and present, and you really can't ask for a better group of people. 

A couple observations I might make for future KD events:  Target ID was an issue that seemed to come up, so to eliminate that, since only 10 targets are available at the 100, limit the remaining distances to ten targets so the heats go quicker and counting from left or right is simplified.  I understand you can do every bit of target ID and someone will still shoot the wrong one, but reducing the delay due to target confusion is the goal.

Since there is a preexisting relationship with the nearby church to suspend Sunday shooting until 12, I did see the instructors prepping the range with targets but I felt we could have been clicking safeties off the minute the clock struck 12.  That is partially to do with a slow moving group of participants, so just get Cindy yelling at 'em...I could tell she had some practice 

One thing I'd like to point out, since a large portion of the instruction had to do with basic fundamentals as they pertain to target acquisition and reacquisition, is that certain muzzle devices eliminate almost entirely ANY muzzle rise/shift from the target, so POA is not affected, while simultaneously making for a really miserable time for nearby shooters.  One nearby brake/comp blew my hat off and another was showering the line with paint chips from one of the columns.  I realize I was shooting with a silencer/suppressor, but they do not mitigate recoil/muzzle rise, just reduce auditory and visual signatures.  Maybe shooters could be encouraged to use flash hiders or something so as not to hammer their neighbors on the firing line?  Just a thought

All in all, I had a great time.  The range was fantastic I got to meet a lot of new, like minded individuals in an environment that was completely welcoming. Thanks again to all the instructors and Appleseeders.  I was disappointed with my Saturday AQT (31) but shot really well all day Sunday and qualified during both heats. 

I just need to find another event near me!

-adam

[Nashville Stage]

PatriotDoc,

I can certainly understand your frustration and feeling short-changed. I would be upset if that happened to me. Perhaps this will be an impetus for those in leadership to reconsider the scheduling & booking policies.

I hope the poor weekend you experienced hasn't soured your taste for Appleseed. Please consider Maximum Ordinate's offer for Talladega. I'm not sure what part of the south that you're in, but if you're looking for "time in the saddle", Talladega is one of the best places to do it (the electronic targets eliminate the time spent walking). Plus, it's a very large, first-rate facility from what I've seen & heard.

Again, apologies for the rough weekend that you experienced. I hope we can make it right for you.

A few friends have touched base with me privately and expressed concerns that I came across too critical & harsh with my above comments. I was taken aback, considering that I never intended to come across as critical or to attack the personal or professional actions of either Pelon or Pelonius.

I re-read my comments, and you know what? They're right. My words could easily be heard in a snarky, back-biting tone, and that's not ok. We all work too hard at this to be nipping at each other, especially over something that was probably a perfect storm of miscommunication & honest mistakes.

If I had a time machine to re-write my response in a better manner, it would be this: "PatriotDoc, I'm sure the leaders of the KD event will take your words to heart & look at what happened. They care a lot about the students who come through the program, and I'm sure they'll make whatever adjustments are necessary to make this right for you. Please feel free to touch base with them directly to discuss this as well."

I've privately reached out to Pelon & Pelonius, and they've both encouraged me, saying that they received it with the spirit that was intended, and there were no hard feelings about it.

I've often said that making mistakes is not a condemnation; to err is human, and we're all human. How we *respond* to our mistakes is what really matters in the end, and is what separates the pros from the amateurs. Seeing how Pelon & Pelonius have responded to this, they're pros in my book.