I am going to speak for myself here, not on behalf of the AOC.
Yes, it is true, every .22 lr can have an out of battery discharge. However, we typically do not see this many reports of out of battery discharge in a year from any other rifle as we have with the S&W M&P 15-22. We also have not had a shooter on the line injured from an out of battery discharge with any other rifle. If you Google it, you will find plenty of reports and video’s of out of battery discharge with the S&W M&P 15-22.
Point is, OOB detonation happens with .22lr semi autos.
So, if the point was to let us know an out of battery discharge could happen with any .22lr semi auto rifle; thank you. Duly noted. We have a lot of gun guys here at Appleseed and they also tell us the same thing.
"Abundance of safety issues"? Really? You have 5 issues listed on the original note banning the rifle.
Five too many! How many out of battery discharges and how many people injured on our shooting lines is acceptable to you?
1. Bowie, MD - OOB discharge, another shooter hit with fragment.... Appleseed should shoulder some of the blame for the injury. Shooters were too close together with no barriers in between shooters to stop brass or other debris.
Yes, yes. . I can understand your comments. Since you were there, you know. And as we both know most outdoor ranges have barriers in between shooters to stop brass or other debris. It must be Appleseed's fault. Unless ... the rifle should not be firing out of battery and splaying brass and other debris. Now there's a novel idea.
2. Casper, WY - Hammer pins moving, causing double fires... Appleseed instructor "hammered pins back in place" and firearm worked properly for 3 more sets. Did anybody actually confirm that the fire control group was installed properly with the legs of the hammer spring over the top of the pin?
So now you're telling us it is the shoot bosses responsibility to confirm that the fire control group is installed properly in every M&P 15-22 with the legs of the hammer spring over the top of the pin? I thought that was S&W's job. Also, is there any actual evidence that improperly installed hammer springs would cause the rifle to have double fires, or would it cause the rifle not to fire at all? What were the results of your testing on this rifle?
Was this rifle updated with the blue springs from S&W, or did it have the yellow springs?
Did I miss the notice of product recall for the M&P 15-22 where S&W was going to update with the blue springs? Can you point me to that recall notice?
4.Michigan - Another Appleseed instructor, replaced extractor and after that had "runaway". Sent to S&W, S&W replaced yellow springs with blue springs... Known issue and fix.
So this is a known issue and fix? You concede there is a known problem and a known fix. Again, did I miss the notice of product recall for the S&W M&P 15-22? Where is that recall notice?
5. Montpelier, VA: Instructor comments "I’ve witnessed out-of-battery firing and squib from M&P 15/22’s twice but never from a 10/22." - Seeing how squibs are ammunition related, not the fault of a rifle, this instructor does not seem too credible.
The issue is not that he witnessed a squib, it is that he witnessed an out-of-battery firing. He didn't state they were at the same time. As far as credibility of the instructor, when you were investigating the claims and you spoke to that instructor, he didn't seem credible? Is that what your stating? I can assure you the AOC spoke with him. He seemed very credible to us.
I would hate to think you have not personally investigated each claim and spoke with the folks involved, and are just sitting there as the arm-chair expert pontificating about what you 'think' happened and who is or is not credible.
This isn't very scientific, but Google Ruger 10/22 out of battery, and you will get 1,070,000 hits on that term. Do the same with M&P 15-22 out of battery, you get 143,000 hits. Filter out the word Appleseed, and that drops to 138,000 ...
No, it is not scientific. It has no bearing on the number of safety reports we have received and incidents we have seen on our lines. It does not remedy the injury that occurred on our line, and it does nothing to ensure future safety on the line.
I asked S&W about this back on May 16 via Facebook, and here is the response I received.
Chat Conversation Start
MAY 16TH, 9:06AM
Good Morning. Is there any new information regarding the M&P 15-22 being banned at Appleseed shoots? It has been 8 months since the "temporary" ban has been in place, and I have not heard of any findings from S&W.
MAY 16TH, 2:03PM
Hi John, thanks for contacting S&W today and your interest in our products.
The safety, function and performance of our firearms is an issue of paramount importance to Smith & Wesson. For that reason, we are constantly evaluating the quality of our firearms to ensure that they meet our exacting standards and the M & P 15-22 is no exception. This firearm is reliable, accurate and safe when used in accordance with safe gun handling practices and our instructions for use. We have been made aware of the concerns reported by Appleseed. We are working cooperatively with those involved to investigate the report but at this point, we have no information to suggest that the incidents reported were related to the quality of the design of the M & P 15-22. Thank you! SWCS
Looks like S&W has said there are no safety flaws....
No John, they may have replied to a message from some guy who contacted them on Facebook, but they most certainly have not officially responded to Appleseed as an organization and told us the rifles are safe. They have not responded at all.
Now I'll make a point or two if I may.
We on the AOC were given a sacred trust and asked to guard it well. That trust is the future of Appleseed. Each of us on the AOC take that charge very seriously. It is our job to make sure Appleseed is around in 10, 20, and 50 years and to see it grow.
What if a woman comes to one of our shoots. The shooter next to her shooting a S&W M&P 15 22 has an out of battery discharge and she is injured. Injured so bad that she requires surgery to remove shrapnel (it happened). We investigate (initial and subsequent) and find there are about a dozen reports of similar safety issues with this rifle within our own organization. We find plenty of other such reports on various sources on the internet including YouTube and the S&W forums. Armed with this knowledge, we as an organization do nothing. Sometime later another person gets injured when another S&W M&P 15-22 has an out of battery discharge. After they see their doctor, they go to visit their lawyer. The lawyer finds out we knew there was a potential safety issue with this rifle and we did nothing. How long do you think Appleseed exists after that?
Let's forget about the legal risk we open the organization to. Let's look at it the way I look at it; as a shoot boss. Knowing all we know, we have a S&W M&P 15-22 on the line and next to that shooter is a 10 year old girl coming to her first Appleseed. The S&W M&P 15-22 has an out of battery discharge and shrapnel goes into the little girls face or eyes from the side of here safety glasses. As a man, and as a grandfather with my own adorable granddaughter; do you think I want to live life with that kind of guilt on my soul (
that I knew there was a potential problem with this particular model rifle and did nothing)? I think I'd rather die than live with that guilt.
Maybe, it wasn't a little girl. Maybe it was one of our instructor staff was down in the dirt carding the sights when the S&W M&P 15-22 has an out of battery discharge. Again, we knew there was a potential safety issue with this particular model rifle and did nothing.
You seem very concerned about this S&W M&P 15-22 ban. I must ask why? Why is it such a problem for you that we choose to err on the side of caution and safety? Are you a S&W stock holder?
To every means there must be an end. Do you just want to argue for the sake of arguing? Is it more important to be right in your argument than to be safe on the firing line? Do you want to get the ban lifted? What is the end point here for you? If it is to get the ban lifted, let me relieve you of your burden. Only S&W can do that, not you. Save your arguments.
And why would we risk it all? For the grand honor of saying we have S&W M&P 15-22's on the line?
To help out S&W stock holders?
I don't think so.
I am sorry if this reply seems curt. The AOC, and this organization, have been second guessed and criticized for our stance on this matter for far too long. Criticized by those who have not spoken to one shoot boss, one instructor, one shooter, or S&W. Criticized by people who think they are arm-chair experts and without talking to one person related to the issues, think they know what happened, who is or isn't credible, whose fault the problem is, and can conclude these rifles are safe, there is no problem. Judging from the type of reaction we've received, you'd think we told people their babies were ugly.
I don't care if you haven't personally seen a S&W M&P 15-22 have an out of battery discharge, more than enough people have seen it. It would just be nice to not be second guessed by the people within our own organization that we are acting in the best interest of the shooters that come to the line, our instructor staff, and the organization.
