Author Topic: S&W M&P15-22 Allowed yet?  (Read 1344 times)

Offline m1agsr

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S&W M&P15-22 Allowed yet?
« on: January 23, 2017, 10:28:19 AM »
Once upon a time the Smith & Wesson M&P 15-22 was allowed at appleseed then it wasn't because of some safty concerns. I haven't found anything saying it's back on the okay list.. does anyone KNOW if it's on the ok or bad list at THIS time?
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Offline NJrefugee

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Re: S&W M&P15-22 Allowed yet?
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2017, 12:22:44 PM »
It is currently not permitted at AS events.  If/when that changes, I'm sure there will be an announcement.

Offline Mrs. Smith

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Re: S&W M&P15-22 Allowed yet?
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2017, 12:46:08 PM »
The new website doesn't mention this restriction, nor does the EventBrite signup page, as far as I can find.
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Offline little buddy

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Re: S&W M&P15-22 Allowed yet?
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2017, 11:23:12 PM »
It is on the new website

Offline Mrs. Smith

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Re: S&W M&P15-22 Allowed yet?
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2017, 05:26:11 PM »
Where, Little Buddy? I looked in several places and didn't find it,   :'(  Perhaps it should be in more than one spot? For instance, on the section about "how to prepare" there's a list of rifle-specific things. It mentions the 17hmr ban, but bupkus on the 15-22.  I would think that's a logical place to mention it.  I already spoke with Scuzzy and he's going to look into it.  Thanks!!
"An armed society is a polite society." - Robert A. Heinlein

"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."  - Jeff Cooper

"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do." - Robert A. Heinlein

"I can kill you with my brain." - River Tam

Offline scuzzy

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Re: S&W M&P15-22 Allowed yet?
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2017, 05:50:39 PM »
Added to 'how to prepare'

http://appleseedinfo.org/how-to-prepare/

Also added to the order confirmation page which is displayed after registering on eventbrite:

http://appleseedinfo.org/confirmation/
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Offline ARFRog

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Re: S&W M&P15-22 Allowed yet?
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2017, 12:46:56 AM »
So what is the update on the S&W M&P 15-22?

Was this traced to a specific type or sub-model or manufacturing date for this type of rifle? Is there a manufacturer's acknowledgement or repair recommendation? Or has this rifle been banned and forgotten?

Offline DrRichP

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Re: S&W M&P15-22 Allowed yet?
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2017, 03:37:54 AM »
As you know due to an abundance of reported safety issues with the Smith and Wesson M&P 15-22 culminating in the injury of a shooter on our lines, we have temporarily banned the use of the Smith and Wesson M&P 15-22 at Appleseed. Please see the safety reports in the advisory at https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=49549.msg337146#msg337146, additional reports here https://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=49549.msg337302#msg337302, and refer to these videos on YouTube:

We have requested Smith and Wesson (S&W) fully investigate the potential problem and respond to us appropriately. Malabar and I were in conference calls with the president and CEO of S&W, their Director of Sales & Marketing Operations and the President of the Firearms Division. They literally called Malabar and I twice a day for about 2 weeks.

We (Appleseed) assisted S&W in getting in touch with the owners of each rifle that we received safety reports on. Once that was done we heard nothing from S&W. At SHOT Show in January 2017 we spoke with their VP of global marketing and operations and inquired about their investigation. He could not make any official comments. We know from our cadre one rifle was sent back from S&W with a letter stating the malfunction was a result of fouling (i.e., operators fault). The other was sent back from S&W with a letter stating the malfunction was a result of using ammo not recommended for use in the M&P 15-22, (i.e., operators fault).

We as an organization cannot make each shoot boss become the ammo police and ensure each shooter is using the recommended ammo for every type of rifle. We also cannot make shoot bosses to ensure each rifle that comes to the line has been properly cleaned or maintained. At Appleseed it is “using a rack grade rifle with rack grade ammo”. However, we as shoot bosses are responsible for the safety of our shooters and the safety of the instructors that get down in the dirt with shooters.

We explained to S&W if they would respond to us, stating there were no safety flaws in the design of the rifle and the M&P 15-22 was safe, we would lift the ban. We were told they would have to run it up the flagpole, and past the lawyers. Since then we have heard nothing.

I followed up with an e-mail on February 21, 2017 again asking for the results of their investigation. The email went unanswered. I again followed up in March 2017 and again the e-mail went unanswered. The silence is deafening.

At NRAAM in April 2017 I stopped by their booth, and they told me they could not comment further. I asked how many M&P 15-22’s had they had returned with damage consistent with an out-of-battery discharge? I was told they could not answer that. In my mind, who should be better able to answer that than S&W? Again, the silence is deafening.

Therefore, until such time as we can be assured these rifles are safe when they come to the line, they will remain banned.

As soon as S&W responds to our request for follow-up, and can assure the safety of the M&P 15-22 we can determine whether or not the ban will be lifted. We assure the cadre, and the public alike, that as soon as this matter has been settled we will let everyone know. If you do not receive notice that the ban has been lifted that is because it has not been lifted, remains in effect, and S&W has not responded to us.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2017, 03:45:10 AM by DrRichP »
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Offline Monkey

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Re: S&W M&P15-22 Allowed yet?
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2017, 11:43:38 AM »
An observation, based on data points in Rich's post:

- There have been multiple, documented material failures, including some at AS events.
- S&W is aware of these failures - they have smart people that collect this data.  As an organization, we have told them of these.
- The public knows that S&W knows of these problems.  S&W can't "unknow" this.
- S&W has an interest to not comment on these failures.  Most likely legally driven.  Coming out and saying they are safe, and then having another material failure, could open the door for litigation.  As such, I don't see them responding.

FWIW, I don't see the 15-22 being marketed nearly as heavily as it was a year ago.  This leads me to believe that they don't feel they really have anything to lose if AS continues the suspension (I dislike the word "banned") of the 15-22.

I'm not a lawyer, nor have I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express, but just some musings from an Appleseed guy on a 4 day weekend.
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Offline ARFRog

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Re: S&W M&P15-22 Allowed yet?
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2017, 03:09:42 PM »
Thank you for the timely responses.

While I am disappointed at the update, I can understand AS's position here.

I have not had any issues with my 10 month old 15-22 but will check the forum links and elsewhere to more fully understand what to look out for.

Offline ARFRog

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Re: S&W M&P15-22 Allowed yet?
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2017, 04:49:47 PM »
Please note that the 15-22 safety advisory links do not seem to work. They both show the following notice:

Project Appleseed
An Error Has Occurred!
The topic or board you are looking for appears to be either missing or off limits to you.
Back

Offline scuzzy

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Re: S&W M&P15-22 Allowed yet?
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2017, 05:28:41 PM »
Please note that the 15-22 safety advisory links do not seem to work. They both show the following notice:

Project Appleseed
An Error Has Occurred!
The topic or board you are looking for appears to be either missing or off limits to you.
Back

The links are to an instructor area. However the links provide the same info as you have available on this thread.
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Offline cyphertext

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Re: S&W M&P15-22 Allowed yet?
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2017, 10:11:16 PM »
Just curious, has Ruger accounted for every OOB detonation to the liking of Appleseed?  Happens with the 10/22 also.  I've personally had an OOB detonation with a CMMG dedicated .22lr upper... are those banned as well?

Point is, OOB detonation happens with .22lr semi autos.  If someone other than the shooter was injured on the line, such as the case at the Appleseed event, the shooters are too close together and/or not wearing appropriate clothing...  extra space, cardboard dividers, or simply a long sleeve shirt could have mitigated the chance for injury.  Every time you pull the trigger, you are setting off an explosion... there is risk involved with shooting sports, hence why we wear eye protection.

Offline scuzzy

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Re: S&W M&P15-22 Allowed yet?
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2017, 10:44:59 PM »
Just curious, has Ruger accounted for every OOB detonation to the liking of Appleseed?

No -Ruger has not had to account for OOB. If we'd seen this problem with the Ruger we'd have gone the same route. I have seen one Ruger with a split case due to OOB. I believe it was from badly stored ammo though. This is after 7 years of doing Appleseeds. Speaking from personal experience I seen more problems with the 15/22 as described as per the youtube links above. I've see extractors being blown away at least 3 times personally.

The legal aspects make things the way  they currently are.

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Offline RaggedHole

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Re: S&W M&P15-22 Allowed yet?
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2017, 10:47:05 PM »
I have seen OOB detonations on 10/22s as well but the difference is they are very few and far between. The 15-22 has had problems running from the inception with multiple types of ammo and I have heard of numerous problems mentioned on the S&W forum and other places. Overall they just don't run well dirty, also S&W deafening silence on this is telling...

Just curious, has Ruger accounted for every OOB detonation to the liking of Appleseed?  Happens with the 10/22 also.  I've personally had an OOB detonation with a CMMG dedicated .22lr upper... are those banned as well?

Point is, OOB detonation happens with .22lr semi autos.  If someone other than the shooter was injured on the line, such as the case at the Appleseed event, the shooters are too close together and/or not wearing appropriate clothing...  extra space, cardboard dividers, or simply a long sleeve shirt could have mitigated the chance for injury.  Every time you pull the trigger, you are setting off an explosion... there is risk involved with shooting sports, hence why we wear eye protection.
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Offline Maximum Ordinate

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Re: S&W M&P15-22 Allowed yet?
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2017, 09:43:20 AM »
As you know due to an abundance of reported safety issues with the Smith and Wesson M&P 15-22 culminating in the injury of a shooter on our lines...

<snip>

Excellent summary. 

This would be useful when explaining to shooters why they can't bring their beloved S&W 15/22.  If this could be placed as a public-facing, stand-alone post... we could point to it as needed.

Thoughts?
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Re: S&W M&P15-22 Allowed yet?
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2017, 09:56:15 AM »
Sounds like a plan to me.
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Offline cyphertext

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Re: S&W M&P15-22 Allowed yet?
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2017, 11:33:36 AM »
As you know due to an abundance of reported safety issues with the Smith and Wesson M&P 15-22 culminating in the injury of a shooter on our lines...

<snip>

Excellent summary. 

This would be useful when explaining to shooters why they can't bring their beloved S&W 15/22.  If this could be placed as a public-facing, stand-alone post... we could point to it as needed.

Thoughts?

"Abundance of safety issues"?  Really? You have 5 issues listed on the original note banning the rifle.

1. Bowie, MD - OOB discharge, another shooter hit with fragment....  Appleseed should shoulder some of the blame for the injury.  Shooters were too close together with no barriers in between shooters to stop brass or other debris. 

2.  Casper, WY - Hammer pins moving, causing double fires...  Appleseed instructor "hammered pins back in place" and firearm worked properly for 3 more sets.  Did anybody actually confirm that the fire control group was installed properly with the legs of the hammer spring over the top of the pin?  Was this rifle updated with the blue springs from S&W, or did it have the yellow springs?

3.  Michigan - Instructor OOB lost extractor and spring...  S&W repaired, stated rifle was dirty, causing OOB, instructor sold the rifle. 

4.Michigan - Another Appleseed instructor, replaced extractor and after that had "runaway".  Sent to S&W, S&W replaced yellow springs with blue springs...  Known issue and fix.

5.  Montpelier, VA:  Instructor comments "I’ve witnessed out-of-battery firing and squib from M&P 15/22’s twice but never from a 10/22."  - Seeing how squibs are ammunition related, not the fault of a rifle, this instructor does not seem too credible.

This isn't very scientific, but Google Ruger 10/22 out of battery, and you will get 1,070,000 hits on that term.  Do the same with M&P 15-22 out of battery, you get 143,000 hits.  Filter out the word Appleseed, and that drops to 138,000...

Offline DrRichP

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Re: S&W M&P15-22 Allowed yet?
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2017, 04:03:39 PM »
I am going to speak for myself here, not on behalf of the AOC.

Yes, it is true, every .22 lr can have an out of battery discharge. However, we typically do not see this many reports of out of battery discharge in a year from any other rifle as we have with the S&W M&P 15-22. We also have not had a shooter on the line injured from an out of battery discharge with any other rifle. If you Google it, you will find plenty of reports and video’s of out of battery discharge with the S&W M&P 15-22.

Point is, OOB detonation happens with .22lr semi autos.

So, if the point was to let us know an out of battery discharge could happen with any .22lr semi auto rifle; thank you. Duly noted. We have a lot of gun guys here at Appleseed and they also tell us the same thing.

"Abundance of safety issues"?  Really? You have 5 issues listed on the original note banning the rifle.

Five too many! How many out of battery discharges and how many people injured on our shooting lines is acceptable to you?

1. Bowie, MD - OOB discharge, another shooter hit with fragment.... Appleseed should shoulder some of the blame for the injury. Shooters were too close together with no barriers in between shooters to stop brass or other debris.

Yes, yes. . I can understand your comments. Since you were there, you know. And as we both know most outdoor ranges have barriers in between shooters to stop brass or other debris. It must be Appleseed's fault. Unless ... the rifle should not be firing out of battery and splaying brass and other debris. Now there's a novel idea.

2. Casper, WY - Hammer pins moving, causing double fires... Appleseed instructor "hammered pins back in place" and firearm worked properly for 3 more sets. Did anybody actually confirm that the fire control group was installed properly with the legs of the hammer spring over the top of the pin?

So now you're telling us it is the shoot bosses responsibility to confirm that the fire control group is installed properly in every M&P 15-22 with the legs of the hammer spring over the top of the pin? I thought that was S&W's job. Also, is there any actual evidence that improperly installed hammer springs would cause the rifle to have double fires, or would it cause the rifle not to fire at all? What were the results of your testing on this rifle?

Was this rifle updated with the blue springs from S&W, or did it have the yellow springs?

Did I miss the notice of product recall for the M&P 15-22 where S&W was going to update with the blue springs? Can you point me to that recall notice?

4.Michigan - Another Appleseed instructor, replaced extractor and after that had "runaway". Sent to S&W, S&W replaced yellow springs with blue springs... Known issue and fix.

So this is a known issue and fix? You concede there is a known problem and a known fix. Again, did I miss the notice of product recall for the S&W M&P 15-22? Where is that recall notice?

5. Montpelier, VA:  Instructor comments "I’ve witnessed out-of-battery firing and squib from M&P 15/22’s twice but never from a 10/22."  - Seeing how squibs are ammunition related, not the fault of a rifle, this instructor does not seem too credible.

The issue is not that he witnessed a squib, it is that he witnessed an out-of-battery firing. He didn't state they were at the same time. As far as credibility of the instructor, when you were investigating the claims and you spoke to that instructor, he didn't seem credible? Is that what your stating? I can assure you the AOC spoke with him. He seemed very credible to us.

I would hate to think you have not personally investigated each claim and spoke with the folks involved, and are just sitting there as the arm-chair expert pontificating about what you 'think' happened and who is or is not credible.

This isn't very scientific, but Google Ruger 10/22 out of battery, and you will get 1,070,000 hits on that term. Do the same with M&P 15-22 out of battery, you get 143,000 hits. Filter out the word Appleseed, and that drops to 138,000 ...

No, it is not scientific. It has no bearing on the number of safety reports we have received and incidents we have seen on our lines. It does not remedy the injury that occurred on our line, and it does nothing to ensure future safety on the line.

I asked S&W about this back on May 16 via Facebook, and here is the response I received.

Chat Conversation Start

MAY 16TH, 9:06AM
Good Morning. Is there any new information regarding the M&P 15-22 being banned at Appleseed shoots?  It has been 8 months since the "temporary" ban has been in place, and I have not heard of any findings from S&W.
MAY 16TH, 2:03PM

Hi John, thanks for contacting S&W today and your interest in our products.

The safety, function and performance of our firearms is an issue of paramount importance to Smith & Wesson. For that reason, we are constantly evaluating the quality of our firearms to ensure that they meet our exacting standards and the M & P 15-22  is no exception. This firearm is reliable, accurate and safe when used in accordance with safe gun handling practices and our instructions for use. We have been made aware of the concerns reported by Appleseed. We are working cooperatively with those involved to investigate the report but at this point, we have no information to suggest that the incidents reported were related to the quality of the design of the M & P 15-22. Thank you! SWCS

Looks like S&W has said there are no safety flaws....

No John, they may have replied to a message from some guy who contacted them on Facebook, but they most certainly have not officially responded to Appleseed as an organization and told us the rifles are safe. They have not responded at all.

Now I'll make a point or two if I may.

We on the AOC were given a sacred trust and asked to guard it well. That trust is the future of Appleseed. Each of us on the AOC take that charge very seriously. It is our job to make sure Appleseed is around in 10, 20, and 50 years and to see it grow.

What if a woman comes to one of our shoots. The shooter next to her shooting a S&W M&P 15 22 has an out of battery discharge and she is injured. Injured so bad that she requires surgery to remove shrapnel (it happened). We investigate (initial and subsequent) and find there are about a dozen reports of similar safety issues with this rifle within our own organization. We find plenty of other such reports on various sources on the internet including YouTube and the S&W forums. Armed with this knowledge, we as an organization do nothing. Sometime later another person gets injured when another S&W M&P 15-22 has an out of battery discharge. After they see their doctor, they go to visit their lawyer. The lawyer finds out we knew there was a potential safety issue with this rifle and we did nothing. How long do you think Appleseed exists after that?

Let's forget about the legal risk we open the organization to. Let's look at it the way I look at it; as a shoot boss. Knowing all we know, we have a S&W M&P 15-22 on the line and next to that shooter is a 10 year old girl coming to her first Appleseed. The S&W M&P 15-22 has an out of battery discharge and shrapnel goes into the little girls face or eyes from the side of here safety glasses. As a man, and as a grandfather with my own adorable granddaughter; do you think I want to live life with that kind of guilt on my soul (that I knew there was a potential problem with this particular model rifle and did nothing)? I think I'd rather die than live with that guilt.

Maybe, it wasn't a little girl. Maybe it was one of our instructor staff was down in the dirt carding the sights when the S&W M&P 15-22 has an out of battery discharge. Again, we knew there was a potential safety issue with this particular model rifle and did nothing.

You seem very concerned about this S&W M&P 15-22 ban. I must ask why? Why is it such a problem for you that we choose to err on the side of caution and safety? Are you a S&W stock holder?

To every means there must be an end. Do you just want to argue for the sake of arguing? Is it more important to be right in your argument than to be safe on the firing line? Do you want to get the ban lifted? What is the end point here for you? If it is to get the ban lifted, let me relieve you of your burden. Only S&W can do that, not you. Save your arguments.

And why would we risk it all? For the grand honor of saying we have S&W M&P 15-22's on the line?  :bow:
To help out S&W stock holders? ??? I don't think so.

I am sorry if this reply seems curt. The AOC, and this organization, have been second guessed and criticized for our stance on this matter for far too long. Criticized by those who have not spoken to one shoot boss, one instructor, one shooter, or S&W. Criticized by people who think they are arm-chair experts and without talking to one person related to the issues, think they know what happened, who is or isn't credible, whose fault the problem is, and can conclude these rifles are safe, there is no problem. Judging from the type of reaction we've received, you'd think we told people their babies were ugly.

I don't care if you haven't personally seen a S&W M&P 15-22 have an out of battery discharge, more than enough people have seen it. It would just be nice to not be second guessed by the people within our own organization that we are acting in the best interest of the shooters that come to the line, our instructor staff, and the organization.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 09:23:15 PM by DrRichP »
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