Author Topic: Talladega CMP KD May 28-29 Observations  (Read 3603 times)

Offline Aim Small Hit Small

  • AppleCore
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 66
Talladega CMP KD May 28-29 Observations
« on: June 04, 2016, 01:30:01 AM »
First, let me say that the CMP Marksmanship Park at Talladega is a place every serious shooter should try to visit at least once. Do like I did and put it on your bucket list!

I had hoped to attend the first AS KD back in January, but had to postpone until the one last week. It was nearly a 600 mile drive from eastern NC. My wife and I made it sort of a mini vacation. She shopped with a friend until she dropped and I shot until I almost dropped LOL!

Sit back and drink your coffee as this may get a bit long. A little background may be in order, so let me say that I am not a novice shooter. I am 69 yrs. old and wish I had a nickel for every round I have sent downrange since I was a kid. I would be able to build my own CMP Park! I have attended three Appleseeds and easily earned my Rifleman’s Patch at each of them and re-qualified numerous times. I have also attended Field Shoots at the home range in Ramseur. I currently shoot the CMP John C. Garand matches with my M1 Garand on a regular basis.

I thought that with my experience with the M1, I might be able to conquer the KD at Talladega. Nothing could have been further from the truth.  More on that later.

On Friday, the day before the KD, my wife and I made a visit to the Park. We met a number of the employees, including Leon. Leon is a character. If you have not met Leon, you missed out on a real treat at the park.  Leon just had to take us on a personal tour of the 500 acre park. If you have not done that you can’t really appreciate what the park includes. It is quite impressive. All the staff was absolutely wonderful and that includes the AS staff too.

Upon arriving at the park on Saturday morning, my buddy and I were met by a very pleasant AS instructor who directed us where to go. I saw a line of golf carts and asked if they were available to take our gear to the firing lines. We were told they were. Well, I was looking forward to that, as it was a long walk to haul your gear. We were able to drive our vehicles to Range 2 on Saturday, so the carts were not needed.

After an orientation and safety briefing, all 14 shooters and three AS instructors were off to Range 2 to prepare for Stage 1 of the KD. Here is where this AS begins to get a bit murky.  Only about half of the 14 managed to qualify according to AS standards. That is when AS resorted to some funny math…or maybe it was Common Core. I am not sure, but the result was everyone passed Stage 1 (standing). I had passed with no problem without the funny math. I am glad because it was to one of few that  I passed!

The history lessons were quite interesting as usual and I personally enjoyed them. All our instructors were very knowledgeable and presented the information clearly and concisely. I must admit that I did get a bit lost when they started on the milrad system. I need to do more homework on that one. That wasn’t the instructor’s fault.  Hey, math was always my weak subject.

Sunday morning arrived and as we parked, I immediately noticed there were not any golf carts lined up to haul us and our gear to the firing line. We were told that they were not available as they were being charged. Oh well, that was not a good start. I was about to drop by the time I hauled all that gear down all those flights of stairs. 400 rounds of 30-06 in a 50 cal. Ammo can is not light, plus a 10 lb rifle plus case, liquids, range bag, shooting mat. It was either one trip with it all or another trip back up the steps and another trip down. I was beginning to think that CMP Talladega was a young man’s game. If you have trouble climbing stairs…stay home.

By now, everyone has heard about the infamous KNS Electronic Scoring System. It is different. Feedback is instant and accurate. In fact, it is so accurate you may not get credit for a hit if your bullet strikes a scoring circle. It is the only time in my life time of shooting that a shot on a scoring ring did not count to the higher value. The only fair thing about that is that it applied to all the shooters.

Having had almost a week to think about it, it is quite obvious that this class was the new kid on the block…errr shooting line. None of the instructors mentioned it, but there is no way they used the same scoring system they used in January when 23 out of 25 passed the KD.  Only three out of 14 managed to pass this KD. One of the three was a very experienced competition shooter and really knew his AR15 like the back of his hand. Many in the class were instructors or orange hats.

Looking back, I think if I had been using the AR platform with a scope, I may have increased my chances of passing the KD considerably.  I would love to meet the shooter who can pass this KD using a M1 Garand, with the scoring used. Trying to hit the correct scoring rings on a six MOA target with a 7 MOA front sight is very challenging indeed.

Another problem that is not conducive to using the M1 Garand is the 60 second stage (standing to prone) and the 55 second stage (standing to sitting/kneeling). AS, unlike CMP M1 Garand stages, does not allow a bolt over ride with the 2 round clip in the M1. Therefore, I had to move from standing to prone or sitting/kneeling, insert the 2 round clip, and manipulate to bolt to close over the top of the first round, then rack the bolt to chamber the first round. By the time NPOA is obtained, most shooters had already fired 2 to 4 rounds. I never did complete those stages successfully. I always ran out of time before firing all ten rounds. With the AR platform, it would have been much easier.

I also find it interesting that the course of fire used in AS is based on the 8 round clip capacity of the M1 Garand.  AS should allow use of the bolt over ride when using the 2 round clip in the M1.  CMP for many years has allowed the bolt over ride in their M1 Garand matches. It is time for AS to take a look at this. There is absolutely nothing unsafe when using this method.

There are other problems this shooter had that are not experienced at other ranges. That is failing to reset the electronic monitors after each string of fire. Failure to do so will result in a big fat 0 on that string of fire. ASK ME HOW I KNOW! It’s about impossible to pass when you have lost 10 points on a single position.

Finally, I would have thought that with the electronic scoring and no down range pasting and changing targets, we would have completed more than 4 attempts at the KD. I don’t believe the instructors completed one of the KD’s before moving on to something else. I am not sure where all the time went but I feel much more time should have been spent on the range.

Lastly, the target and ranging estimation was very interesting. It was more of a test than a learning process.  Basically, you can’t range what you can’t see. Rifle/scope combinations had the advantage due to the magnification and being able to spot the camouflaged targets out to nearly 500 yards. If you are shooting iron sights, leave your binoculars at home, they won’t allow you to use them. ASK ME HOW I KNOW!

The weather was great. I met some great people. The instructors were knowledgeable and helpful. The CMP personnel were also super. All in all, I had a great time.  Will I be back? Probably not. If and when the KNS targeting system ever develops software to mimic the AS redcoats, I would re-consider. But I am not going to hold my breath on that one.

I strongly suspect that the scoring system used by AS at the KD will again be changed. It is obvious that different scoring systems are being used at other AS ranges. Some use a “all hits in the black” while AS at CMP uses much tighter scoring. You may hit the black but that does not mean you will earn any points.

Appleseed is a good program, but I feel changes are needed to make it more successful. In the mean time, buy ammo and shoot more. If your rifle is always clean, you aren’t shooting enough. :---
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 08:48:45 AM by Rusty »
June 15/16 2013 Rifleman (Charlotte, NC)
Feb. 7/8 2015 Rifleman (Boone, NC) (Winterseed)
April 18/19 2015 Rifleman (Ramseur, NC)
March, 2017 RBC Rifleman and KD Qualified
(Ramseur, NC) Took a Blue Hat.
April 22/23, 2017 Rifleman Requal (243)
Ramseur, NC
January 20/21, 2018 Rifleman Requal (244) Ramseur, NC
May 4/5, 2019 Rifleman Requal (249)
Ramseur, NC
May 24/25, 2019 KD Requal
Ramseur, NC
May 14, 2020 RBC Ramseur, NC Pistoleer Patch (220)

Offline Ramblin' Wreck

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 955
  • The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.
Re: Talladega CMP KD May 28-29 Observations
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2016, 11:36:42 AM »
Rusty is on the road through Sunday and will post a reply when he can after returning.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 08:48:53 AM by Rusty »
KD Requal 2/22/19 at 600 yards AR15 Service Rifle 50/50
25m Requal 2/1/2020 with AR15 scored 247

Without a heritage every generation starts over.

Beware an old man who still shoots iron sights.

Offline TORIN

  • Instructor in Training
  • Newbie
  • ***
  • Posts: 6
Re: Talladega CMP KD May 28-29 Observations
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2016, 03:18:33 PM »
I agree with the OP on the many challenges of shooting at this particular KD, I can’t imagine how hard it would be with a Garand  - and the golf carts would’ve been nice to have on day 2!

The best comparison I have is a KD shoot I participated in at Ramseur, NC in July 2015.

At Ramseur we used standard KD D-model targets at 100-400 yards actual distance. At the CMP we used circular NRA targets at 100-300 and 600 yards.  We shot a re-sized target (smaller ring count) at 300 to simulate 400 – and in one string we shot at 600 as a stage 4 target.

An AS D-model target measures about 18x18x24.5 inches (220.5 Sq Inches). 

At the CMP we used the following NRA targets: 
1)   100 Yard Target:  Hit=5 to X-Ring = 9.2 inches to center = 18.4 inches diameter (265.9 Sq Inches).
2)   200 Yard Target: Hit=8.2 to X-Ring = 9.7 inches to center = 19.4 inches diameter (295.59 Sq Inches).
3)   300 Yard Target: Hit=8.2 to X-Ring = 9.7 inches to center = 19.4 inches diameter (295.59 Sq Inches).
4)   300 Yard/Stage 4: Hit=9.1 to X-Ring = 7.8 inches to center = 15.6 inches diameter (191.13 Sq Inches).
5)   600 Yard/Stage 4: Hit=8 to X-Ring = 12 inches to center = 24 inches diameter (452.38 Sq Inches).

All of the CMP targets, except the for 300 yd/stage 4, are actually larger in surface area than the D-model target, however the total diameter of the circular NRA targets (except at 600 yards) was closer to the short side of a D-model target. 

I’m not blaming the target for me not hitting it, however I do think the difference in the shape of the targets  - circular versus the triangular D-model  - makes the CMP targets a bit more challenging for unsupported firing positions. Additionally, the target you “see” is either larger than what you’re actually trying to hit (outside the black in stages 1 and 2) or it is smaller (inside the black in stages 3 and 4).     

Otherwise, Talladega was very nice in a number of ways. We had great weather that never was very hot, no rain, and no walking (nor riding the old M880 like the one in Ramseur!).

I really enjoyed the shoot at Ramseur, it was incredibly well organized and executed and there’s something to be said for the comradery of a long, hot day at the range. 

There were fewer AQTs rounds at Talladega - 5 at 100 yards, 4 at 200-300/600, but one 200-400 AQT was incomplete because we switched to 600 yards before stage 4 was executed, and 600 became the first stage for the next AQT.   I think we had 7 or 8 rounds at Ramseur.  To Talladega’s credit, the 100 yard range is separate from the 200-600 and the target detection and ranging exercise had to be conducted at a separate location – all of which added to the time required.     

All in all it was an incredible weekend with great people, great instruction, and amazing history.  I really enjoyed meeting folks and having 2 beautiful days on the range, well worth the 460 mile drive for me and I’d recommend it to anyone. 
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 08:49:01 AM by Rusty »

Offline ChileRelleno

  • Retired IIT
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
  • 3 Seeds/3 Patches/KD and an Orange Hat
Re: Talladega CMP KD May 28-29 Observations
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2016, 01:00:44 AM »
I can just about completely concur with the OP on just about every point he makes.

Especially about targets/scoring here compared to regular AS shoots/targets and the Target Spotting/Ranging course.
The instructors acknowledged the issues between traditional scoring at AS shoots and the targets here at CMP, hopefully they can iron out the kinks.
Ideally an AS AQT target in CMP's scoring system would be the fix, but I doubt that'll ever happen.

I'll tell ya right now, for the Target Spotting I borrowed the binoculars from the guy next to me. If a person with a magnified scope can spot with it, then why not let us use other glass?
What I learned here about ranging targets with sights/reticle gave me enough basics to take it home and work more on it.

I shot the course with my M1A and was challenged much the same as the OP.
And in a few other ways that I can fix, e.g. by modifying my sling mount so as not to have to re-sling every time, that eats up a tremendous amount of prep time.
I don't remember being as rushed for time at the two regular AS shoots I've done, pretty easily scored Rifleman on day one at each of those.
Used a Marlin Model 60 with a Spee-D-Loader at those and it was a breeze.
Of course it's been a few years, some added inches of waistline and a grouchy lower disc in my back.

For those who might have to haul gear to Range #1 at CMP if golf carts aren't available, there is a relatively short golf cart trail with a gradual slope that negates having to take the stairs.
I used it to haul my gear cart back to the car and it was a breeze, much easier than stairs.

Overall I had a great time, despite personal difficulties.
My goal was to learn to be able to confidently get on target at 600 yards with my M1A and it's iron sights, mission accomplished.

I hope to come back and try again in October, perhaps with an AR this time.
Though that is a question, does CMP have an issue with standard 62gr SS109/M855 penetrator rounds being used on their range?
AS got a pass this time, or something?  Having to use more expensive match ammo would be expensive and perhaps drive away participants?
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 08:49:08 AM by Rusty »
Ragnar Benson:
"Never, under any circumstances, ever become a refugee... Die if you must, but die on your home turf with your face to the wind, not in some stinking hellhole 2,000 kilometers away, among people you neither know nor care about."

Offline jmdavis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1955
  • Ramseur IBC 1108
Re: Talladega CMP KD May 28-29 Observations
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2016, 02:04:06 AM »
One could shoot standing and sitting at 200, then rapid prone at 300 and slow prone at 600. Each of the standard targets is a 6 MOA bull. With the E targets, let them total the score and call 80% a Riflemans score.

There are tricks to shooting an M1 under time constraints. But the major issue that I have seen is line bosses who want to move to fast. An AQT is not a race. Prep time needs to be long enough for the non magazine shooters to get clips ready and for most of the line to dryfire at least once without leaving everyone baking in the sun.

But the shooter can also help himself greatly by practicing loading the M1 from crossed or dropped rounds for the 2, and a full clip for the 8. I certainly agree on the over-ride or alternately mags inserted on a closed bolt in the style of CMP National a Match and Games Competition. It is safe and would be an improvement.

But the main purpose of a KD is to teach the skills of Known Distance shooting. The AQT is the exam of that instruction. But drills and dryfire are important methods to improve outcomes. There is nothing wrong and much right about dry firing each stage before it is shot while instructors actively work with students to correct issues and increase performance.

One final point. A 7 MOA sight is a great too for accurate shooting. I personally prefer a sight that us 12 MOA, which is not coincidentally the width of a High Power a Target? You can use the 7 MOA sight to make sure that you are centered left to right on the 6 MOA bull.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 08:49:15 AM by Rusty »
"If a man does his best, what else is there?"  - General George S. Patton Jr

  ...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
  For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
  Shall be my brother...-Shakespeare, Henry V
 

"There's a great deal of talk about loyalty from the bottom to the top. Loyalty from the top down is even more necessary and is much less prevalent. One of the most frequently noted characteristics of great men who have remained great is loyalty to their subordinates."
- General George S. Patton, Jr

"Your body can't go where your mind hasn't been."
- Alex Arrieta 1995 NTI Winner

Offline Maximum Ordinate

  • National Coordinator & AOC Member
  • Master Instructor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1912
  • Liberty, yo!
Re: Talladega CMP KD May 28-29 Observations
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2016, 12:55:15 PM »
Good morning, Chris.
 
Thank you for posting.  It's obvious we share a passion for Appleseed and an expectation of excellence from the events we attend.  I apologize that your experience with us wasn't what you expected. 
 
You are absolutely right - the golf carts to travel to Range 1 were at the maintenance building getting charged.  Having them available would have made Sunday a little nicer.  The CMP park was closed on Sunday for Memorial Day Weekend.  CMP accidentally booked us for this weekend, but kept their commitment.  One CMP staff member sacrificed his holiday weekend with his family to stay with us.  With only one person to open the range, help us get set up, and the other tasks required - there was no one available to bring the golf carts to us.  Thankfully, we only had 300 yards on a gently paved path to the firing line instead of walking 6-7 miles during a traditional KD event.  If we'd realized you were struggling to carry your gear, an instructor would have happily volunteered to assist.
 
We spent some time in the classroom Saturday morning explaining the difference between the traditional paper AQT targets and what we've improvised for shooting at Talladega.  The sizes and shapes are different, but the electronics allow us to score accurately to areas we define.  Appleseed's standard is 4MOA - hitting a man sized target out to 500 yards but the paper target is a little bigger - so we adapt the rings to as close as we can.  The good news is on Friday before our event we met with the CMP staff about putting our silhouettes on their backers and adjusting the computers to score our "hits count" AQT.  Their target expert is working with the system manufacturer right now.  It's exciting and I'm looking forward to see where that goes. 
 
You did very well in Standing and should be rightfully proud.  I can understand your confusion about scoring on Stage 1, as I addressed the issue privately with each student who didn't do as well.  With the 100 yard range separate from the main range, it is impractical to walk back and forth between them for each AQT.  It's why we do all standing work on Day 1. 
 
We push students to get 8/10 hits on Standing before graduating to the long range so they are not mathematically eliminated from earning the KD rocker on Sunday.  If they do not achieve 8/10, we average their final two or three scores and carry it forward.  The math is not "murky".  I'm just unwilling end a student's weekend on Saturday afternoon because they are struggling with one stage of the AQT.  If you had a bad day shooting standing, I suspect you'd be very upset if I said you couldn't continue on to Sunday.  As long as student is safe and staying on the backer, we move them forward.
 
After teaching the tasks of target detection and range estimation, we did a practical exercise on those tasks.  It was an opportunity to put into practice the skills from the lecture - a Rifleman detecting and estimating range with only his rifle.  It's an individual exercise, but not a test.  While it is a valuable skill, it is not required to earn the KD rocker.
 
Your question about "bolt override" is a good one and comes up from time to time.  Project Appleseed safety procedures are clear: we do not transition with a loaded rifle.  I know other shooting disciplines do, but this is part of our risk management process.  There shouldn't be any difference shooting your M1 at a 25m event or a KD.
 
We planned and shot 4 AQTs with plenty of time for prep, hydration, and target resetting.  As jmdavis alludes to, short prep times that are "get tough drills" are not constructive.  The four AQTs were planned as: two with reduced size target 300 & two with an increased size target stage 600 for stage 4.  With the sighter groups that some shooters needed, we exceeded the recommended 350 rounds for the weekend.  I know at least one shooter was nearing the end of the ammunition he brought.
 
You are right there were differences between the January and April KD events.  The KD in January was our beta test and we hosted a very different group of shooters than normal.  It was predominately seasoned instructors & shoot bosses, with a sprinkling of accomplished high power shooters.  Since then, we've tweaked the scoring a bit and validated it at our recent Rifleman Boot Camp.  At the April RBC, shooters (including new shooters) who were consistently maintaining 4MOA at 25m were able to qualify KD using the same standards we used on May 29/30.
 
I regret that the event did not meet your expectations and would be happy to refund your ticket cost and range fees.  Please send me a PM with your address and I will get a personal check out to you this week.

As a seasoned Appleseeder, I'm sure you realize that if we had more instructors we could do more.  Not just more events to tell history, but have more personalized instruction, more one-on-one during range estimation, etc.  We are always in need of individuals who are passionate, detail oriented, and hardworking.  You, with multiple events and qualifications, would bring a lot to the organization. Would you consider joining us as an Orange Hat?
 
in Liberty,
Rusty
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 08:49:21 AM by Rusty »
We're in the Liberty business.

Have questions?  Check our Volunteer FAQ.

KD requal 50/50, December 2020.

Offline Maximum Ordinate

  • National Coordinator & AOC Member
  • Master Instructor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1912
  • Liberty, yo!
Re: Talladega CMP KD May 28-29 Observations
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2016, 01:05:51 PM »
Quote
Though that is a question, does CMP have an issue with standard 62gr SS109/M855 penetrator rounds being used on their range?
AS got a pass this time, or something?  Having to use more expensive match ammo would be expensive and perhaps drive away participants?

Great question.

We had not heard of a restriction on steel core / armor piercing ammo until Saturday afternoon.  When we spoke to their range officer, we got a pass this time.  It wasn't something that was previously discussed with us and I'm following up as the policy doesn't seem to be written down anywhere I can find.  If so, I'm going to ensure our event pages are updated with the info & future shooters are told in advance.

There is no requirement for match ammo, nor do I believe that is their intent.  I see milsurp on the line all the time.  The sensors embedded in the target frames are armored, but that armor doesn't stand up to the M855 or M1AP ammo.  In my mind, it a reasonable position to protect their very expensive equipment. 

As Appleseed is a guest on the CMP range, we'll do everything we can to accommodate their policies.

-Rusty
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 08:49:29 AM by Rusty »
We're in the Liberty business.

Have questions?  Check our Volunteer FAQ.

KD requal 50/50, December 2020.

Offline ChileRelleno

  • Retired IIT
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
  • 3 Seeds/3 Patches/KD and an Orange Hat
Re: Talladega CMP KD May 28-29 Observations
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2016, 02:10:51 PM »
Most definitely see the need to protect equipment.
It's my understanding and limited experience that getting decent accuracy at ranges beyond 400 yards is best gained with heavier bullets.
So if the ubiquitous and relatively inexpensive SS109/M855 is not allowed then we are pretty much looking to use various match/ hunting ammo.

Is this pretty much correct?
Or will a quality 55gr do the job without issues?

Would be good to know cause I need to budget a case of 64-75gr ammo if I plan on attending again in October.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 08:49:36 AM by Rusty »
Ragnar Benson:
"Never, under any circumstances, ever become a refugee... Die if you must, but die on your home turf with your face to the wind, not in some stinking hellhole 2,000 kilometers away, among people you neither know nor care about."

Offline Google

  • Budget Officer & Special Projects
  • Senior Instructor-RBC/IBC
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Pistol Instructor

  • Posts: 294
  • Senior Staff
Re: Talladega CMP KD May 28-29 Observations
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2016, 02:25:01 PM »
I've qualified at both 'paper' KDs and at Talladega using 55gr, so it can be done.  I'll concede that the wind wasn't much of a factor during those events though.  Just my two cents.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 08:49:43 AM by Rusty »

Offline ChileRelleno

  • Retired IIT
  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 23
  • 3 Seeds/3 Patches/KD and an Orange Hat
Re: Talladega CMP KD May 28-29 Observations
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2016, 02:40:26 PM »
Thanks for the input Theta... Error... Diana.

« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 08:49:50 AM by Rusty »
Ragnar Benson:
"Never, under any circumstances, ever become a refugee... Die if you must, but die on your home turf with your face to the wind, not in some stinking hellhole 2,000 kilometers away, among people you neither know nor care about."

Offline Google

  • Budget Officer & Special Projects
  • Senior Instructor-RBC/IBC
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Pistol Instructor

  • Posts: 294
  • Senior Staff
Re: Talladega CMP KD May 28-29 Observations
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2016, 02:56:23 PM »
 ;D
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 08:49:57 AM by Rusty »

Offline jmdavis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1955
  • Ramseur IBC 1108
Re: Talladega CMP KD May 28-29 Observations
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2016, 03:13:50 PM »
It seems to me that with 14 shooters and 3 instructors you have one line boss and two instructors that can check the line at ceasefire and coach the shooters. More could be better, but three is pretty good with an instructor to student ration of 1:7.  A few minutes spent with every shooter shows real dividends.

VAShooter told me once about teaching pistol at Annapolis in the Summers as part of the Navy Shooting Team. He had 30 minutes per shooter for 5 days to teach and coach. On the 5th day they shot a National Match Course with the 1911. He had over 70% shooting Expert scores at the end of the week. Along with dryfiring stages, this is something to consider to improve outcomes.

Secondly, Appleseed considers a loaded rifle to be one that has the magazine inserted and a round chambered. Or at least it used to. It seems to me that bolt overide or mag inserted on a closed bolt meets the requirements for safety and efficiency, for transitions. Especially since the line commands also call for "Safeties On, Stand."




« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 08:50:04 AM by Rusty »
"If a man does his best, what else is there?"  - General George S. Patton Jr

  ...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
  For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
  Shall be my brother...-Shakespeare, Henry V
 

"There's a great deal of talk about loyalty from the bottom to the top. Loyalty from the top down is even more necessary and is much less prevalent. One of the most frequently noted characteristics of great men who have remained great is loyalty to their subordinates."
- General George S. Patton, Jr

"Your body can't go where your mind hasn't been."
- Alex Arrieta 1995 NTI Winner

Offline cadman

  • Retired Shoot Boss
  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 54
Re: Talladega CMP KD May 28-29 Observations
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2016, 04:53:32 PM »
jmdavis,

I do not believe the AS Manual states anything about a loaded rifle as having a round chambered.  Instead, I believe it clearly states that "LOAD" means inserting a prepped magazine into the rifle.  If we follow that logically, then to not transition with a loaded rifle would clearly mean to not transition with a rifle having any ammunition in it.

I am not sure of the why for this part of the discussion, unless it is to "game" the AQT  by making the 210 easier to achieve.  I would suggest that we focus on the intended spirit of shooting 210 or better on the AQT in that the time limit places some stress on the shooter which he/she must overcome.  Many have done so and we should work to help others do so without changing the system.

. . . or, have I missed something?
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 08:50:10 AM by Rusty »

Offline jmdavis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1955
  • Ramseur IBC 1108
Re: Talladega CMP KD May 28-29 Observations
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2016, 05:10:25 PM »
Until 2009 we transitioned with loaded rifles, safeties on and no one considered it "Gaming." That's how Appleseed was founded. I am not suggesting a return to that. But I do know that the reason that CMP, NRA, and Appleseed switched to unloaded  transitions was safety. CMP has a mag inserted or bolt overiding the first round and an empty chamber for semi autos, NRA did away with transitions completely, and Appleseed decided to leave the mags on the ground and transition with an open bolt.

Read what the load commands means. It means to insert a magazine and chamber a round.  In offhand and slow prone, shooters insert the magazine AND chamber a round.

There is a differences between loaded, unloaded and "safe." A safe rifle is also "grounded" but no one would suggest leaving the rifle on the ground for the transition.

A rifle without a round chambered is not loaded. It won't shoot.

I've shot Appleseed KD's both ways. And I've used all three ways when I shoot CMP, NRA, or AS. I do not think that there is a difference in Safety. All are safe as long as the rules are followed. And all could be unsafe if people ignore the rules.


« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 08:50:18 AM by Rusty »
"If a man does his best, what else is there?"  - General George S. Patton Jr

  ...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
  For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
  Shall be my brother...-Shakespeare, Henry V
 

"There's a great deal of talk about loyalty from the bottom to the top. Loyalty from the top down is even more necessary and is much less prevalent. One of the most frequently noted characteristics of great men who have remained great is loyalty to their subordinates."
- General George S. Patton, Jr

"Your body can't go where your mind hasn't been."
- Alex Arrieta 1995 NTI Winner

Offline Ramblin' Wreck

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 955
  • The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.
Re: Talladega CMP KD May 28-29 Observations
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2016, 05:24:19 PM »
How can the Shoot Boss, Line Boss and RSO's know that the shooter has not chambered a round and is not in fact transitioning with a loaded rifle?


Wreck

Until 2009 we transitioned with loaded rifles, safeties on and no one considered it "Gaming." That's how Appleseed was founded. I am not suggesting a return to that. But I do know that the reason that CMP, NRA, and Appleseed switched to unloaded  transitions was safety. CMP has a mag inserted or bolt overiding the first round and an empty chamber for semi autos, NRA did away with transitions completely, and Appleseed decided to leave the mags on the ground and transition with an open bolt.

Read what the load commands means. It means to insert a magazine and chamber a round.  In offhand and slow prone, shooters insert the magazine AND chamber a round.

There is a differences between loaded, unloaded and "safe." A safe rifle is also "grounded" but no one would suggest leaving the rifle on the ground for the transition.

A rifle without a round chambered is not loaded. It won't shoot.

I've shot Appleseed KD's both ways. And I've used all three ways when I shoot CMP, NRA, or AS. I do not think that there is a difference in Safety. All are safe as long as the rules are followed. And all could be unsafe if people ignore the rules.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 08:50:25 AM by Rusty »
KD Requal 2/22/19 at 600 yards AR15 Service Rifle 50/50
25m Requal 2/1/2020 with AR15 scored 247

Without a heritage every generation starts over.

Beware an old man who still shoots iron sights.

Offline jmdavis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1955
  • Ramseur IBC 1108
Re: Talladega CMP KD May 28-29 Observations
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2016, 05:33:11 PM »
The same way that you know that the safety is on... You don't for sure.

But you teach people to follow the instruction. Do you feel unsafe when you fire a CMP match? Do you feel unsafe when you have a tube shooter prep the tube on a closed bolt?  M1 shooters may be taught easily how to make the bolt override the top round. It has worked safely at 1000's of CMP matches over the past 6 years. If the decision was made to use such a method you would treat it the exact same way that you treat tube guns. Individual or small group instruction on the procedure before the teaching of transitions.

The key is to make sure that no one cycles the bolt until their butt or elbow is on the ground. As long as that happens it is safe.

« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 08:50:31 AM by Rusty »
"If a man does his best, what else is there?"  - General George S. Patton Jr

  ...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
  For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
  Shall be my brother...-Shakespeare, Henry V
 

"There's a great deal of talk about loyalty from the bottom to the top. Loyalty from the top down is even more necessary and is much less prevalent. One of the most frequently noted characteristics of great men who have remained great is loyalty to their subordinates."
- General George S. Patton, Jr

"Your body can't go where your mind hasn't been."
- Alex Arrieta 1995 NTI Winner

Offline Ramblin' Wreck

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 955
  • The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.
Re: Talladega CMP KD May 28-29 Observations
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2016, 06:05:43 PM »
But, if there is ZERO ammo in the rifle you ARE sure if you don't allow any ammo to be put in it before you're on the mat.


We don't allow anyone to push in the plunger on a tube gun until they're on the ground after the fire command is given.


You still don't know if the Garand shooter has actually not loaded when he did a bolt over. It's a safety thing. The extra 3 seconds to put in the TWO clip is secondary. There's still plenty of time if you know how to operate your Garand. Based on your argument why shouldn't everyone be allowed to insert the mag on a closed bolt? Answer: Because that's not how Appleseed does it. We aren't the NRA or CMP.
[/size]

The same way that you know that the safety is on... You don't for sure.

But you teach people to follow the instruction. Do you feel unsafe when you fire a CMP match? Do you feel unsafe when you have a tube shooter prep the tube on a closed bolt?  M1 shooters may be taught easily how to make the bolt override the top round. It has worked safely at 1000's of CMP matches over the past 6 years. If the decision was made to use such a method you would treat it the exact same way that you treat tube guns. Individual or small group instruction on the procedure before the teaching of transitions.

The key is to make sure that no one cycles the bolt until their butt or elbow is on the ground. As long as that happens it is safe.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 08:54:15 AM by Rusty »
KD Requal 2/22/19 at 600 yards AR15 Service Rifle 50/50
25m Requal 2/1/2020 with AR15 scored 247

Without a heritage every generation starts over.

Beware an old man who still shoots iron sights.

Offline Maximum Ordinate

  • National Coordinator & AOC Member
  • Master Instructor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1912
  • Liberty, yo!
Re: Talladega CMP KD May 28-29 Observations
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2016, 06:11:09 PM »
I'm feeling a little "what is the meaning of is" coming on.   ;D

On page 21, the 2016 CMP Competition Rules for Service Rifle and Pistol, 20th Ed defines load as:

Quote
5.6.7 Safety During Loading
Loading is defined as placing a cartridge in a rifle or pistol chamber, inserting
a cartridge in an internal magazine of a rifle or inserting a loaded magazine in
a rifle or pistol.

So, according to CMP rules, a rifle with rounds in the internal magazine, an empty chamber, and closed bolt is loaded

Regarding transition stages, the current AS instructor manual states on page 23:

Quote
In addition, please notice that the LOAD command is NOT given during the Transition Stages. The proper time for them to LOAD is after they have been given the command to FIRE and have completed the transition to their final position.

We don't transition with loaded rifles.  Maybe someday that will change - I failed precognition in college.   :))

Qualifying with an M1 is difficult and requires skill & perseverance.  I have great respect for Rifleman who qualify with John Garand's masterpiece.   :~
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 08:50:45 AM by Rusty »
We're in the Liberty business.

Have questions?  Check our Volunteer FAQ.

KD requal 50/50, December 2020.

Offline jmdavis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1955
  • Ramseur IBC 1108
Re: Talladega CMP KD May 28-29 Observations
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2016, 06:16:48 PM »
I'm not arguing the time. As I said I have done it both ways and shot above the Rifleman score each way in 50 seconds with a loaded rifle and safety on transition and 55 with an unloaded transition. But I don't think that there is anything unsafe about a transition on an empty chamber.

The fact is that you NEVER know if someone has inserted a round before the load command. You teach them to follow instructions and then you DEPEND on them following those instructions while spot checking them.



« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 08:50:50 AM by Rusty »
"If a man does his best, what else is there?"  - General George S. Patton Jr

  ...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
  For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
  Shall be my brother...-Shakespeare, Henry V
 

"There's a great deal of talk about loyalty from the bottom to the top. Loyalty from the top down is even more necessary and is much less prevalent. One of the most frequently noted characteristics of great men who have remained great is loyalty to their subordinates."
- General George S. Patton, Jr

"Your body can't go where your mind hasn't been."
- Alex Arrieta 1995 NTI Winner

Offline Ramblin' Wreck

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 955
  • The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.
Re: Talladega CMP KD May 28-29 Observations
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2016, 06:19:53 PM »
How long ago was it that you attended a shoot and were allowed to transition with a rifle that had rounds in it. I've been here since 2011 and we never have. Are you an instructor?


Wreck

I'm not arguing the time. As I said I have done it both ways and shot above the Rifleman score each way in 50 seconds with a loaded rifle and safety on transition and 55 with an unloaded transition. But I don't think that there is anything unsafe about a transition on an empty chamber.

The fact is that you NEVER know if someone has inserted a round before the load command. You teach them to follow instructions and then you DEPEND on them following those instructions while spot checking them.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 08:50:57 AM by Rusty »
KD Requal 2/22/19 at 600 yards AR15 Service Rifle 50/50
25m Requal 2/1/2020 with AR15 scored 247

Without a heritage every generation starts over.

Beware an old man who still shoots iron sights.

Offline jmdavis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1955
  • Ramseur IBC 1108
Re: Talladega CMP KD May 28-29 Observations
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2016, 06:24:25 PM »
Rusty,

If the bolt is closed on an empty chamber, can the rifle fire?

What does the load command mean when given for non-transition stages of Appleseed? It means inserting a magazine AND chambering a round. If a round is not chambered. The rifle cannot fire.

The CMP

« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 08:51:03 AM by Rusty »
"If a man does his best, what else is there?"  - General George S. Patton Jr

  ...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
  For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
  Shall be my brother...-Shakespeare, Henry V
 

"There's a great deal of talk about loyalty from the bottom to the top. Loyalty from the top down is even more necessary and is much less prevalent. One of the most frequently noted characteristics of great men who have remained great is loyalty to their subordinates."
- General George S. Patton, Jr

"Your body can't go where your mind hasn't been."
- Alex Arrieta 1995 NTI Winner

Offline jmdavis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1955
  • Ramseur IBC 1108
Re: Talladega CMP KD May 28-29 Observations
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2016, 06:33:06 PM »

How long ago was it that you attended a shoot and were allowed to transition with a rifle that had rounds in it. I've been here since 2011 and we never have. Are you an instructor?


Wreck

I'm not arguing the time. As I said I have done it both ways and shot above the Rifleman score each way in 50 seconds with a loaded rifle and safety on transition and 55 with an unloaded transition. But I don't think that there is anything unsafe about a transition on an empty chamber.

The fact is that you NEVER know if someone has inserted a round before the load command. You teach them to follow instructions and then you DEPEND on them following those instructions while spot checking them.

Former Senior Instructor, Former State Coordinator, Shootbossed or worked RBC's at Ramseur in 2009, 2010, 2011. Helped teach the first IBC in AL. Ran the first Steel City Event in AL. Taught KD's in IN, MO, NC and VA. Worked Appleseeds in AL, OH, WV, NC, GA, MO, IN, MD, NJ and VA.

We did loaded transitions before 2009. Actually I think it was before 2010 but I can't find my 2009 instructor manual. By Feb 2010 we were doing unloaded transitions with 55 seconds.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 08:51:10 AM by Rusty »
"If a man does his best, what else is there?"  - General George S. Patton Jr

  ...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
  For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
  Shall be my brother...-Shakespeare, Henry V
 

"There's a great deal of talk about loyalty from the bottom to the top. Loyalty from the top down is even more necessary and is much less prevalent. One of the most frequently noted characteristics of great men who have remained great is loyalty to their subordinates."
- General George S. Patton, Jr

"Your body can't go where your mind hasn't been."
- Alex Arrieta 1995 NTI Winner

Offline Ramblin' Wreck

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 955
  • The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.
Re: Talladega CMP KD May 28-29 Observations
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2016, 06:35:20 PM »
No, it can't. And it surely can't if there has not been anything loaded into the rifle. Would you like to guess how many early fires we had just in the nearly 100 events I've worked in the last 5 years when NOBODY was supposed to have had a loaded rifle yet? We aren't the NRA or CMP.


If the rules have changes since you were an instructor you must assume they changed for a reason.


Wreck

Rusty,

If the bolt is closed on an empty chamber, can the rifle fire?

What does the load command mean when given for non-transition stages of Appleseed? It means inserting a magazine AND chambering a round. If a round is not chambered. The rifle cannot fire.

The CMP
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 08:51:16 AM by Rusty »
KD Requal 2/22/19 at 600 yards AR15 Service Rifle 50/50
25m Requal 2/1/2020 with AR15 scored 247

Without a heritage every generation starts over.

Beware an old man who still shoots iron sights.

Offline Ramblin' Wreck

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 955
  • The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.
Re: Talladega CMP KD May 28-29 Observations
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2016, 06:39:11 PM »
So when was the last event you attended?




How long ago was it that you attended a shoot and were allowed to transition with a rifle that had rounds in it. I've been here since 2011 and we never have. Are you an instructor?


Wreck

I'm not arguing the time. As I said I have done it both ways and shot above the Rifleman score each way in 50 seconds with a loaded rifle and safety on transition and 55 with an unloaded transition. But I don't think that there is anything unsafe about a transition on an empty chamber.

The fact is that you NEVER know if someone has inserted a round before the load command. You teach them to follow instructions and then you DEPEND on them following those instructions while spot checking them.

Former Senior Instructor, Former State Coordinator, Shootbossed or worked RBC's at Ramseur in 2009, 2010, 2011. Helped teach the first IBC in AL. Ran the first Steel City Event in AL. Taught KD's in IN, MO, NC and VA. Worked Appleseeds in AL, OH, WV, NC, GA, MO, IN, MD, NJ and VA.

We did loaded transitions before 2009. Actually I think it was before 2010 but I can't find my 2009 instructor manual. By Feb 2010 we were doing unloaded transitions with 55 seconds.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 08:51:22 AM by Rusty »
KD Requal 2/22/19 at 600 yards AR15 Service Rifle 50/50
25m Requal 2/1/2020 with AR15 scored 247

Without a heritage every generation starts over.

Beware an old man who still shoots iron sights.

Offline jmdavis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1955
  • Ramseur IBC 1108
Re: Talladega CMP KD May 28-29 Observations
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2016, 06:45:48 PM »
They changed while I was am instructor. We knew about the event that precipitated the change for all three organizations. There was discussion on the change here online. I don't care because I can do it either way. But more standardization rather than less is a good thing. It used to be that CMP, NRA and Appleseed did the same thing. Now they do three different things.

And the prep time fires are the EXACT reason that I say that you can't know anyone has not loaded a rifle. People can and will do stupid things, but the training is to stop those stupid things.

Since I am the reason that Appleseed can hold events at Cavalier Rifle and Pistol club in Virginia, the last event I attended was March 2016. I am there from before the first person arrives on Friday until after the last person leaves on Sunday.

« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 08:51:28 AM by Rusty »
"If a man does his best, what else is there?"  - General George S. Patton Jr

  ...We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
  For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
  Shall be my brother...-Shakespeare, Henry V
 

"There's a great deal of talk about loyalty from the bottom to the top. Loyalty from the top down is even more necessary and is much less prevalent. One of the most frequently noted characteristics of great men who have remained great is loyalty to their subordinates."
- General George S. Patton, Jr

"Your body can't go where your mind hasn't been."
- Alex Arrieta 1995 NTI Winner

Offline Ramblin' Wreck

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 955
  • The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.
Re: Talladega CMP KD May 28-29 Observations
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2016, 06:49:24 PM »
Thank you for your service. As you know, we're not the CMP or NRA. Our pockets are not deep and we're very conscientious about safety as you have no doubt noticed from attending events in the last few years.


We would welcome you back in a hat if you have time.


Wreck

Since I am the reason that Appleseed can hold events at Cavalier Rifle and Pistol club in Virginia, the last event I attended was March 2016. I am there from before the first person arrives on Friday until after the last person leaves on Sunday.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 08:51:35 AM by Rusty »
KD Requal 2/22/19 at 600 yards AR15 Service Rifle 50/50
25m Requal 2/1/2020 with AR15 scored 247

Without a heritage every generation starts over.

Beware an old man who still shoots iron sights.

Offline Aim Small Hit Small

  • AppleCore
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 66
Re: Talladega CMP KD May 28-29 Observations
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2016, 11:09:58 PM »
"I am not sure of the why for this part of the discussion, unless it is to "game" the AQT  by making the 210 easier to achieve. "


Cadman

No one was nor are they suggesting anything about gaming the system. However, if you want to talk about "gaming" the AQT, it is done all the time. Shooters frequently fire the first round and then execute the mag change in order to keep from having to rack the bolt. It saves a second or two for them. Instructors don't know if they have fired two rounds or not.

Rusty, I apologize if I gave the impression that I did not get my money's worth. I DID! The experience of shooting paper at 600 yards cannot be obtained at very many locations. My local range allows shooting out to a 1000 yards but it is steel and they are SMALL. Mostly, oriented towards the sniper classes held there.

I am not ready to give up on the M1. There will be another chance at a KD sooner or later. Maybe next time...
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 08:51:41 AM by Rusty »
June 15/16 2013 Rifleman (Charlotte, NC)
Feb. 7/8 2015 Rifleman (Boone, NC) (Winterseed)
April 18/19 2015 Rifleman (Ramseur, NC)
March, 2017 RBC Rifleman and KD Qualified
(Ramseur, NC) Took a Blue Hat.
April 22/23, 2017 Rifleman Requal (243)
Ramseur, NC
January 20/21, 2018 Rifleman Requal (244) Ramseur, NC
May 4/5, 2019 Rifleman Requal (249)
Ramseur, NC
May 24/25, 2019 KD Requal
Ramseur, NC
May 14, 2020 RBC Ramseur, NC Pistoleer Patch (220)

Offline Maximum Ordinate

  • National Coordinator & AOC Member
  • Master Instructor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1912
  • Liberty, yo!
Re: Talladega CMP KD May 28-29 Observations
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2016, 08:53:51 AM »
Gents,

I've updated the title of this thread so it's not confused with the actual AAR which is forthcoming.   :)

Chris,

No apology necessary.  We appreciate candid feedback and I'm glad you posted your opinions.

See ya on the line,
Rusty
We're in the Liberty business.

Have questions?  Check our Volunteer FAQ.

KD requal 50/50, December 2020.

Offline dond

  • AOC Member
  • Master Instructor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1422
Re: Talladega CMP KD May 28-29 Observations
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2016, 07:07:30 PM »
When we were still allowing transitions with loaded rifles I had a man on the line transition with the rifle in his trigger hand and the rifle fired on his way to prone. It's a good thing that the berm was close and that it was a mountain. It's also a good thing that we do not transition that way any more. And to try and make it even safer, I don't allow anyone to transition with their trigger hand on the rifle because Murphy is still alive and well.

Offline Two Mikes

  • Instructor In Training 1
  • Newbie
  • ***
  • Posts: 16
Re: Talladega CMP KD May 28-29 Observations
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2016, 08:43:50 PM »
My experience was opposite than mentioned above.  I loved every aspect of the weekend!   I don’t think it could have been any better.   My expectations were completely exceeded and blown away.     This was the finest most worthwhile shooting event that I've ever attended!

I viewed this as an intermediate class where we would be exposed to new concepts and lessons.  I didn’t expect to have the regular Appleseed curriculum of NPOA, Steady Hold Factors, etc. nor did I expect we’d get one-on-one attention.  An intermediate class was what was delivered, plus a lot more.

I always learn so much from attending an Appleseed Shoot BUT I can’t imagine another surpassing the knowledge boost that I gained from last weekend’s KD at Talladega.   I have pages of new skills to work on … skills that I didn’t even know I needed or that even existed.   Candidly, I didn’t capture all of what I could have or need too.   

We weren’t abandoned on the line.  The instructors were there providing coaching cues.   As an intermediate shooter, I should know what to do or not do.   I just need to remember to do it. The instructors gave us coaching cues and it was up to us to execute on them.

My 2 favorite lessons from the weekend were seeing how wind changes the trajectory and range determination.   Rusty’s trajectory lessons combined with Wreck’s target detection and range determination exercise opened my eyes to a very important skill …. probably a rifleman’s most important skill ….. knowing how much to adjust your sights so that you hit the target and not the dirt in front of it or the tree next to it. 

Being able to shoot at 600 yards was a powerful way to experience NPOA and in a way that feels different than at shorter ranges.  For the first time ever, I could see the arc of my rifle in recoil.   My scope returned right to the bull every time after taking a crazy journey up the berm and to the left.   It was wonderful to watch and experience.   squeeeeeze the trigger …. Watch the rifle take a trip around the berm.  Wait for the sight picture to settle down. …. Close eyes … breath in- breath out ….. open eyes …. WHOA…. I’m in the center of bull again  …. Squeeeeeze the trigger.

I was pleased with my shootin’ this weekend.   Not having to expend energy walking and pasting targets meant I had more energy to shoot correctly, to remember the 6 steps, and to work on the skills that I need too.   I too felt that the time flew by but that was because I was having so much fun and learning so much.

Where I am at as a Rifleman is COMPLETELY due the lessons I’ve learned at Appleseed shoots in Georgia and Alabama.  Georgia and Alabama are blessed to have the absolute best instructors in the county.    Dr. John, Guardian, Ross, Roswell, Rusty, Ramblin’ Wreck, Google, et.al. are excellent instructors and coaches.     I am so grateful they selflessly share their knowledge and time with us. 

I'm already planning on attending the October KD and will get others to join me.  This was a very worthwhile event!

Mike

« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 08:45:46 PM by Two Mikes »
Proud Member of GeorgiaCarry.Org

If you remove from people all ability to protect themselves, they will insist upon a police state, for their own safety.