KD Info

[KyleC]

My wife and I are hoping to make the KD at the CMP at the end of May.

I was hoping someone could give me rundown of what is needed, recommended, and/or preferred for these shoots.

We have been to one Appleseed Clinic before and plan on attending the one at Double Tap in Feb. to freshen up before the KD shoot in May.

Thanks!

[ChileRelleno]

Hi Kyle,
my name is John and I'll be there on the line with y'all if ya make it.
I've done two Seeds/Riflemanx2 and am looking forward to this KD and shooting at the CMP's TMP.

Pretty much all the same things needed as at a regular Seed, excepting a good centerfire vs the ubiquitous rimfire.
I asked Randy about the round count and he replied with approx 300 rds.
Another item good to have for a KD will be a pen & pad/target data sheet to record info on ballistics/windage and shot/target data.

open mind ready to learn
eyes/ears
reliable centerfire rifle with a 25 yard zero, perhaps a backup.
2-5 reliable mags
USGI sling
300+ rounds
shooting mat
cleaning kit
pen & pad
camera/phone
appropriate clothing/gear for any weather
bug spray
cooler full of water/snacks/lunch

Regards,
John

[Maximum Ordinate]

Hi Kyle!  Thanks for posting!

We have an event in Tuscaloosa in February.  The next event at Double Tap Training Grounds in Calera is in April.  I hope you can make the February shoot!

John did a pretty good rundown of what to bring to Talladega.  (Thanks, John!)  The course of fire should not exceed 300 rounds.  You'll receive a pre-event email with specifics a couple of weeks before the clinic.

The firing lines at CMP Talladega are concrete with good cover & overhangs.  The concrete is *really* hard, like diamond-hard.  Even with a shooting mat, I recommend getting some additional padding under the elbows.  That can be a couple of old towels or a section of carpet remnant under your shooting mat.

Spending time dryfiring in positions and practicing smooth magazine changes is recommended for Riflemen of all skill levels!   

Feel free to contact me if you have any other questions!

-Rusty

[KyleC]

Thanks guys!

I'm assuming .223/5.56 is the most common caliber for the KD.

I'm working on trying to get a buddy to go to T-Town with me.

[Maximum Ordinate]

We do see more AR15s than anything else on the lines, but any centerfire rifle is welcome. 

It's not uncommon to see Garands, M1As, AKs, the occasional SKS and even a Mosin.

[ChileRelleno]

Kyle, I'll be bringing my M1A and an AR.
Looking to primarily shoot my M1A as I want to become more accustomed to it, as it being a newer acquisition.

Rusty,
curious here, overall how do the standard 7.62x39 AKs perform past 300 yards?
I can consistently ring steel out to 300 yards with my Saiga, but've never had to the opportunity to stretch it's legs.
I also have a sweet Saiga .308-ver.21 with custom comb riser, it too hasn't been beyond 300 yards.

Can't resist some shameless gun pron.

[number6]

Rusty,
curious here, overall how do the standard 7.62x39 AKs perform past 300 yards?
I can consistently ring steel out to 300 yards with my Saiga, but've never had to the opportunity to stretch it's legs.
I also have a sweet Saiga .308-ver.21 with custom comb riser, it too hasn't been beyond 300 yards.

Pardon my interjection
As we just had an Instructor KD event here in Michigan, and a 7.62x39 AR based rifle did not perform with any consistency beyond the 300 yard marker.  I don't remember the specifics of the build (i.e. barrel length, twist, sights, ammo specifics) but it performed well at 300 and under.
As always Your Mileage May Vary.

number6

ETA, additional comments

[Maximum Ordinate]

Rusty,
curious here, overall how do the standard 7.62x39 AKs perform past 300 yards?
I can consistently ring steel out to 300 yards with my Saiga, but've never had to the opportunity to stretch it's legs.
I also have a sweet Saiga .308-ver.21 with custom comb riser, it too hasn't been beyond 300 yards.

Pardon my interjection
As we just had an Instructor KD event here in Michigan, and a 7.62x39 AR based rifle did not perform with any consistency beyond the 300 yard marker.  I don't remember the specifics of the build (i.e. barrel length, twist, sights, ammo specifics) but it performed well at 300 and under.
As always Your Mileage May Vary.

number6

ETA, additional comments

Thanks for the input.  I know shooters have qualified KD Riflemen with AK rifles.  I suspect it's a combination of shooter skill, rifle condition/accuracy, and ammo quality. 

The best rifle to bring to a KD is the one you have.  If you have options, bring the one you shoot the best and gives you the most consistent performance.  During the Talladega KD clinic, we will recommend shooters stay with one rifle for the weekend.  A backup rifle is helpful in case you have mechanical issues with your main rifle.

[crobjones2]

Kyle, I'll be bringing my M1A and an AR.
Looking to primarily shoot my M1A as I want to become more accustomed to it, as it being a newer acquisition.

Last October in Kingman we had a guy ring steel to 900 yards with the M1A iron sights
I think it is a good choice. I would highly recommend looking at what ammo you plan on using for it.  Use what you know!!
Using a PTR91 I had good accuracy with LC M80 ball at the closer ranges (1-200yds) but found better results at the longer distance with a lighter projectile and more velocity.  (which is the ammo I normally was feeding the rifle)
The next one, I will be using the equivalent of M118LR

Good shooting!
c

[KyleC]

So, I assume we will go all the way out to the 600yd range.

Will the drills be almost exactly like a regular Appleseed,or will a bolt-action get the job done? I'd love to work a bolt action and put the wife on a semi-, if possible.


Also, thanks for all the replies so far.

[Maximum Ordinate]

So, I assume we will go all the way out to the 600yd range.

Will the drills be almost exactly like a regular Appleseed,or will a bolt-action get the job done? I'd love to work a bolt action and put the wife on a semi-, if possible.

Also, thanks for all the replies so far.

The time standards for all four stages of the AQT will remain the same.

Many shooters have qualifed KD with bolt action rifles.  It requires you to be a bit quicker, but it can be done.

Hope this helps,
Rusty

[MandyMonstar]

I'll be at the KD event in Talladega this month.  I'm really looking forward to it.

Any idea what to expect from the weather?

It requires you to be a bit quicker, but it can be done.

I can't say anything about doing KD with a bolt action, but it is what I've used at regular Appleseed events without any real trouble.  Figure out in advance how to work the action as part of your breathing cycle and make sure that it's clean and well oiled on the day of.

If it's a short action, figure out if you can keep your cheek weld while working the bolt.  Do this by getting in position with the action open.  Do not test this by pulling the bolt open with your head down.  Don't risk putting a dent in your nose.   

[KyleC]

I'll be at the KD event in Talladega this month.  I'm really looking forward to it.

Any idea what to expect from the weather?

It requires you to be a bit quicker, but it can be done.

I can't say anything about doing KD with a bolt action, but it is what I've used at regular Appleseed events without any real trouble.  Figure out in advance how to work the action as part of your breathing cycle and make sure that it's clean and well oiled on the day of.

If it's a short action, figure out if you can keep your cheek weld while working the bolt.  Do this by getting in position with the action open.  Do not test this by pulling the bolt open with your head down.  Don't risk putting a dent in your nose.   

I would love a detailed after action report! PLEASE!!

[MandyMonstar]

@KyleC, sadly I'll be using my AR for the KD event instead.  I just don't have a lefty-friendly bolt-action rifle in a centerfire cartridge.  I tried working the K31's straight pull with my left hand, but it's too stiff to work quickly with an inadequate grip, and the action is just too long.  (Plus it kicks hard enough that I'd probably be a foot further back from the firing line after a course of fire than where I started.)

Maybe someday I'll have a 527 twin to my CZ 452 to shoot KD.  I know I'd feel more confident with a bolt-action than the semi-auto.  Working the bolt manually really enforces a smoothly timed cadence in a way that's hard to explain if you haven't been there.  There's this really zen sense of immediacy brought by breaking a stage into individual tiny movements tied directly to the breathing cycle.  (Inhale - open bolt - pause - close bolt - exhale - bolt down - pause - trigger - inhale - open bolt...)  Using the semi-auto (for me, anyway) means more time to think, and that means more time to do things I shouldn't.   

But anyway, I think of the bolt-action as more of an advantage than a handicap.  There's so little room for error in the timing of each discrete movement that you aren't going to complete the short stages if you don't trust your NPOA immediately and completely.  Being able to have that trust and know intimately what it feels like puts you in a really good position once you're down in stage four.

[Kennebago]

I know I'd feel more confident with a bolt-action than the semi-auto.

But anyway, I think of the bolt-action as more of an advantage than a handicap.

I find truth in both of these things, personally.  If it's time to flop down and pound Stage 3 and Stage 4, I want my 452, because I know down in my gut all I have to do is breathe and relax into the sling.

I do think it's a bit easier/accessible-er to get a standout trigger on a bolt gun because of mechanical simplicity (and thus user adjustability), which is a major mental boost. With the relatively inexpensive Rifle Basix I dropped into my CZ, I was able to get the sear engagement totally cleaned up and, using the supplied 455 plug, set the weight at around 4.0-4.5 pounds where I like it. Great ROI for an aftermarket trigger, given the price (<$100).

It wasn't necessary to do that, and it's very poor practice to use a 1-pound target trigger as a substitute for fundamentals, but having a 100% noise-free mind/machine interface has a clear advantage in the mental aspects of shooting. My (very limited) experience so far is that it's a little easier/cheaper to get with a bolt.

[jmdavis]

Bad trigger control on a 1lb trigger is as bad or worse than bad trigger control on a 6lb trigger.

The key to successful Appleseed KD is to have a rifle that you are comfortable with and that is accurate enough. Almost any rifle will be accurate enough to get the job done. A lot of people have used stock M1's, M1A's and AR's to shoot rifleman on the KD course of fire. It's not really that hard if you don't get your head wrapped around its axle.

The fundamentals are the same. If you are a 3 MOA shooter at 25m, chances are you will shoot 3 moa at 300 yards. Focus on the fundamentals, sight alignment, sight picture and trigger control and you will do fine. With an A2 and irons, one can shoot the same zero with minor hold variation from 100-300 yards and then simply come up for 400 yards. FOCUS and get it done.

[KyleC]

@KyleC, sadly I'll be using my AR for the KD event instead.  I just don't have a lefty-friendly bolt-action rifle in a centerfire cartridge.  I tried working the K31's straight pull with my left hand, but it's too stiff to work quickly with an inadequate grip, and the action is just too long.  (Plus it kicks hard enough that I'd probably be a foot further back from the firing line after a course of fire than where I started.)

Don't let that keep you from telling us all about it!


Good info going on in this thread. I hope other's keep posting

[MandyMonstar]

FOCUS and get it done.

It's the focus that I frequently misplace when shooting the AR versus the CZ.  When I have fewer actions to do per shot I alternate between fussing each shot instead of trusting my NPOA because there's just so much free time, and feeling like the hobbles are off so I can go so very fast that I ignore my breathing.

And where that comes out the worst is stage 1, not stage 4.  That group really opens up more than I'd like.

[jmdavis]

2 or three shots and then rest for a few breaths, bring the rifle back up and make a few more shots. Two minutes is a long time and you don't have to hold the rifle up for the entire time. If you do keep the rifle up, you will likely shoot more low shots that you want. You can try visualizing shooting well when you are taking those short rests. As you breath, see and feel yourself shooting a V or an X (depending on target). Feel what it feels like when you are shooting well. Then raise the rifle and take a few more shots.

You can teach yourself to focus. It might not be easy, but the goal is to keep the stray thoughts out of your head for the course of fire. Don't think about score, work, some unfinished chore, or an argument. Think only of the things that matter at that MOMENT. Being in the moment is a key to focusing.

If you are thinking about the process of shooting well, you cannot simultaneously be thinking about something else. So focus on the things that benefit you.

[Kennebago]

This is really just using different words to say the same thing, but I think you can flip FOCUS FOCUS on its ear if forcing yourself to block things out and FOCUS creates an additional thing to think about...which in turn will also need to be blocked out.

"Oh no, I can't perfectly suppress my thoughts! My brain won't calm down no matter how hard I strain at it! I have to strain harder!!!"

Brian Enos' book on handgun shooting really helped me get over that. All you should really have to do to hit a target is observe the front sight as you press the trigger straight to the rear. So, the rock-simple path is to start from zero, do only those two things, and Just Shoot.

I hit on marksmanship as that kind of a meditative lens very briefly at the Calera shoot last year (before I changed my hat color) with a shooter and it was really resonant with him. Just something for the back pocket, some people seem to understand it better backwards than forwards.

Personally, the bubble isn't something I can open like a car door and climb into. I have to let everything else go, so that the bubble I am already in isn't so crowded.

[jmdavis]

You can do anything that works. But you have to do something and have a strategy. You don't actually FORCE yourself to block out things. That is a negative. You control WHAT you think.

[crobjones2]

Personally, the bubble isn't something I can open like a car door and climb into. I have to let everything else go, so that the bubble I am already in isn't so crowded.

I have to second that. When I shoot, I have to become disconnected from the outside world. When I completely find the bubble, I become very quiet, keep my earplugs in and visualize/ watch my shots. it may take me a couple of courses of fire to find the bubble, it may even take two days
mental state is a big part of making a shot as is being very comfortable with your rifle. My last/ first KD, I brought a rifle I had cycles a few hundred rounds through, having issues the entire time( bullet button issues, magazine issues, scope mount coming off, improper eye relief). Having fixed those issues but still untested, I took her out for a walk. Everything panned out, but I started out unsure if the rifle was going to make it through the weekend. Once, I was comfortable with the rifle, my mental state changed and the bubble came.
my next KD, I will have the same rifle with a couple of minor, easily reversible, mods and different ammo, but I am confident in my rifle, thus one less hurdle