Author Topic: Got my first 10/22  (Read 3318 times)

Offline Specialkay

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Got my first 10/22
« on: August 30, 2015, 09:56:24 PM »
I took my first Appleseed a few weeks ago and used a CZ-452. I learned alot, but wasn't able to get my rifleman on the first go (high score of a 199). I think the bolt on the CZ slowed me down a little bit. And I'm sure I could use some practice.

But I decided a semi-22 would probably work better for when I come back. Greensboro had a gunshow this weekend, so I stopped by looking for a good 10/22. I was hoping to get lucky and find one used with after market sights or a trigger job, but no such luck. I did find a good, new carbine for a good price though. So it went home with me :D

I already put a sling on it, and ordered a few upgrades (Volquartsen hammer, auto bolt release, and tech-sights). When they make it here, I should have them all installed in no time and ready for my next appleseed (or, ready to practice for my next appleseed).

Your first 10/22 is always exciting.
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Offline FiremanBob

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Re: Got my first 10/22
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2015, 10:31:18 PM »
Even better, they are like potato chips. Next thing you know you'll look in the safe and find a half-dozen, all set up differently. I've got three more on my build list right now, each for a special purpose.
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Offline Kosciusko

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Re: Got my first 10/22
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2015, 01:19:32 PM »
If you like CZ quality combined w/ semi-auto function, try the CZ-512.

They are a great rifle.

http://www.jgsales.com/cz-512-semi-auto-rifle,-22lr,-wood-stock,-new.-p-5845.html

Offline Specialkay

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Re: Got my first 10/22
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2015, 02:28:50 PM »
Next thing you know you'll look in the safe and find a half-dozen, all set up differently.

With the amount of after-market parts that are out there, it's easy to get lost in the "build."

I've never shot competitively or anything, and never really modified a rifle or handgun from its factory settings. So I don't know if I would prefer a 2.75 lb trigger pull or a 1.5 lb trigger pull. But you can just keep playing with it to find out. Then play with the stock, barrel, bolt, sear, sights . . . the list goes on.

If you like CZ quality combined w/ semi-auto function, try the CZ-512.

I contemplated getting a semi-auto CZ. But not having known anyone that shot one, and seeing the after-market parts world wasn't as big with CZ's, I decided to go with the 10/22. Plus, I haven't owned enough brands to really say which ones I love and which ones I hate. I like being able to try different brands before I narrow things down.
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navybowhunter

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Re: Got my first 10/22
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2015, 06:56:02 PM »
Awesome!

Next comes an M1 Garand or 3, a 1903A3, 1903A4, 1917, M1 Carbine, AR15 in the correct and service rifle competition legal variety, and ????????

LOL

Welcome to the club!

BUT, it all starts somewhere huh?

ALL the above started for me with a single Project Appleseed Event!

Huzzah!

Offline FiremanBob

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Re: Got my first 10/22
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2015, 07:32:57 PM »
Kay, any questions you may have about your new 10/22, step right up and ask. There's a lot of 10/22 expertise on the Appleseed Rifle Knowledge Bank forum.

I would also recommend you join the forum at rimfirecentral.com. It's the largest and best quality forum for rimfire firearms of all types in the galaxy, where the real experts hang out. You might also take a look at my 10/22 Companion blog.
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Offline Specialkay

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Re: Got my first 10/22
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2015, 10:14:28 PM »
Next comes an M1 Garand or 3, a 1903A3, 1903A4, 1917, M1 Carbine, AR15 in the correct and service rifle competition legal variety, and ????????

The M1 Garand is already on the list. After attending my first appleseed and learning more about the CMP, it's probably close to the top of my list. Along with an M14 and a WWII grade 1911 (if I can find one that doesn't cost me an arm and a leg).

After that, it becomes hard for me to justify other rifles. I love them, love to shoot them, but never get the opportunity. I'm not a member of a rifle range, and don't know anyone that goes to one. I just can't bring myself to drive an hour and a half out to a rifle range on a rumor without knowing anyone there. I don't know, I'm just weird about that. So I'm left waiting for someone to invite me to come shoot on their private land, which is VERY rare.
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Offline Specialkay

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Re: Got my first 10/22
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2015, 10:22:50 PM »
any questions you may have about your new 10/22, step right up and ask.

Thank you, I really appreciate it.

I was very surprised, both in person at the appleseed event I took and on this forum, how kind, welcoming and open the instructors are to new members. Most shooting places that I've encountered have been VERY closed off to new people, and often skeptical. I bet you get alot of sketchy people that come along, so I can understand the skepticism. But it often proves to be a high bar to entry into the marksmanship world. But you guys are doing a wonderful job breaking that barrier.

On the flip side, while I know my way around a rifle I would hardly consider myself an expert. I know right out of the box the 10/22 can probably outshoot me. So while I can talk about different modifications to the 10/22, ultimately the better modifications I can make is to myself and how I shoot, as it's likely to have a significantly greater impact on my groupings than a purchased addition to the rifle. That being said, I'm very interested in modifying the rifle to help me learn good habits early, rather than having to break them later.

Also, while I'm very happy to dryfire practice once or a few times a week, I know that I won't get much (if potentially any) range time between now and the next appleseed event I attend (which probably looks like it might not be until February, but who knows). So while it may sound like an odd question, I'm open to learning ways to improve my marksmanship without the need of going to the range, if that makes sense and/or is possible.

I would also recommend you join the forum at rimfirecentral.com. It's the largest and best quality forum for rimfire firearms of all types in the galaxy, where the real experts hang out.

I already scrolled through some of it. It was very interesting, but honestly most of it was way over my head. Maybe soon it won't be though.
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Offline FiremanBob

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Re: Got my first 10/22
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2015, 08:17:49 AM »
Kay, the top competitive shooters do dry-fire practice at a ratio of at least 100-1 over live rounds. Getting your positions solid so that you can achieve NPOA every time, and then using the 6 Steps, are the keys to marksmanship. So you don't need to go to a range to do the most valuable practice possible.

I have an article on dry-fire practice in the Appleseed Newsletter section of this forum, which you might want to look at.

It would also be worthwhile for you to talk to folks at your local gun shop, and may run a google maps search, to find a club near you. The big advantage of joining a club over a commercial range is that it's a community where you can network and make friends to shoot with between Appleseeds.
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Offline Specialkay

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Re: Got my first 10/22
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2015, 11:23:46 AM »
Getting your positions solid so that you can achieve NPOA every time, and then using the 6 Steps, are the keys to marksmanship.

I'll fully admit I don't have the most experience with rifle marksmanship. I'm not really looking to start competing, or pushing myself to shoot spades off cards at 500 yards. I'm really just looking to enjoy shooting, it's meditative qualities, and become a decent shot being able to consistently hit bulls-eyes at 50-100 yards. That being said, when I attended my appleseed event the instructors needed to constantly remind me to change this or that in my form (my legs weren't quite right, my support hand was usually tense, and so on). I can work on what I notice, but obviously if I don't know I'm doing it wrong I don't think I can work on it.

So, this may be a dumb question and/or not an easy question to answer but when doing dry fire practices in the various positions, how do you know if you're doing it right? How do you know you aren't learning bad habits?

It would also be worthwhile for you to talk to folks at your local gun shop, and may run a google maps search, to find a club near you. The big advantage of joining a club over a commercial range is that it's a community where you can network and make friends to shoot with between Appleseeds.

I've done searches, made inquiries, and phone calls. I've found about 4 that are within an hour drive of me. All 4 are private clubs. Each has an initiation fee of between $200-475, and an annual fee of between $120-200. So the entry fee to just get in the door to see if it's a decent place, good people, ect. would be $360-675. Kinda a high bar. Especially when I'm not fully sure how often I'll be able to go to the range to shoot (maybe 4-8 times a year? More if I can find the time and really like it, but it's hard with a range being an hour away). So with such a high bar, I was really hoping to be able to try a range first. All that I've called say they don't do day passes, but guests of members are free. So just ask a current member. Of which, I know none.

Is my thought process totally off? Should I just say screw it and shell out $450 to join a club and see if I like it? Or should I show up with gun in hand and stand by the door on a busy Sat afternoon and see if a member will let me be their "guest" to try it out?

Sorry if this sounds dumb or sketchy, I just don't really know the protocol.
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Offline Maximum Ordinate

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Re: Got my first 10/22
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2015, 11:48:10 AM »
Getting your positions solid so that you can achieve NPOA every time, and then using the 6 Steps, are the keys to marksmanship.

I'll fully admit I don't have the most experience with rifle marksmanship. I'm not really looking to start competing, or pushing myself to shoot spades off cards at 500 yards. I'm really just looking to enjoy shooting, it's meditative qualities, and become a decent shot being able to consistently hit bulls-eyes at 50-100 yards. That being said, when I attended my appleseed event the instructors needed to constantly remind me to change this or that in my form (my legs weren't quite right, my support hand was usually tense, and so on). I can work on what I notice, but obviously if I don't know I'm doing it wrong I don't think I can work on it.

So, this may be a dumb question and/or not an easy question to answer but when doing dry fire practices in the various positions, how do you know if you're doing it right? How do you know you aren't learning bad habits?

It would also be worthwhile for you to talk to folks at your local gun shop, and may run a google maps search, to find a club near you. The big advantage of joining a club over a commercial range is that it's a community where you can network and make friends to shoot with between Appleseeds.

I've done searches, made inquiries, and phone calls. I've found about 4 that are within an hour drive of me. All 4 are private clubs. Each has an initiation fee of between $200-475, and an annual fee of between $120-200. So the entry fee to just get in the door to see if it's a decent place, good people, ect. would be $360-675. Kinda a high bar. Especially when I'm not fully sure how often I'll be able to go to the range to shoot (maybe 4-8 times a year? More if I can find the time and really like it, but it's hard with a range being an hour away). So with such a high bar, I was really hoping to be able to try a range first. All that I've called say they don't do day passes, but guests of members are free. So just ask a current member. Of which, I know none.

Is my thought process totally off? Should I just say screw it and shell out $450 to join a club and see if I like it? Or should I show up with gun in hand and stand by the door on a busy Sat afternoon and see if a member will let me be their "guest" to try it out?

Sorry if this sounds dumb or sketchy, I just don't really know the protocol.

These are great questions.

Positions:  The first step to know if you're doing it right is to know what right looks like.  The second step is to develop self awareness of your own body.  When you're laying (or sitting/standing) in position, take a conscious mental inventory of what your body is doing.

You may have noticed that in Appleseed we teach the "steady hold factors" counterclockwise around the body - starting with the support hand.  Using that method may help you to not miss anything when practicing your position.

About ranges:  I've noticed that application fees are tied to two things:  revenue needs of the club and also if the membership is getting "full".  In the latter case, prices go up when they don't need as many members.  I don't know the market for your area, so I can't comment on any specific prices.

I'd contact range leadership (or a board member) and simply ask for a tour during normal operating hours.  If a range board was not willing to take time to give a prospective member a tour of the facility, I'd wonder if it was a place I wanted to join. 

Dryfire:  Bob mentioned dryfire and it can be a powerful way to refine and reinforce skills.  However, it must be effective dryfire.  Good dryfire takes mental concentration and a willingness to be honest with yourself.  Have you found (and properly moved) your NPOA?  Did the sights move, even a little bit?

Practice doesn't make perfect.  Only perfect practice makes perfect.

Best of luck.  :)
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Offline Agrivere

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Re: Got my first 10/22
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2015, 12:09:32 PM »
Every range is a bit different, but many have matches of various types that are open to the public. That can be a really good way to see if you like the facilities and the people there. If there is a rimfire sporter match anywhere near you that would be a great match to go check out a range. Smallbore prone matches are fun too but that can be a tough crowd for a new shooter. You should have seen how they snickered at my 10/22 at a prone match until they saw my targets.  ;)
« Last Edit: September 01, 2015, 12:15:50 PM by Agrivere »
"The great body of our citizens shoot less as times goes on. We should encourage rifle practice among schoolboys, and indeed among all classes, as well as in the military services by every means in our power. Thus, and not otherwise, may we be able to assist in preserving peace in the world... The first step � in the direction of preparation to avert war if possible, and to be fit for war if it should come � is to teach men to shoot." -Theodore Roosevelt

Offline Moylan

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Re: Got my first 10/22
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2015, 12:10:34 PM »
It sounds like you're near to Greensboro.  Rifle ranges aren't super plentiful in this area, but there are some out there.  All of these are ranges that offer daily fees.  (I had the same issue you had with gun clubs.  Just too much money, given the infrequency I'd be able to get there.)  Definitely check with these places before going out to any of them!  I've had ranges change hours of operation on me...one even shut down...without any notification in their online info. 

http://www.tripletargetrange.com/   
https://www.facebook.com/rabbitridgeguns
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Windy-Hill-Trading-Post/111597445545792
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Wesmar-Shooting-Range/563353963690678
Also worthy of special note, there's a new public shooting range run by the Wildlife Department not too far from Greensboro:  http://www.ncwildlife.org/News/NewsArticle/tabid/416/indexID/9913/Default.aspx

Of these places, I would say that Triple Target might be the best one to shoot at for practicing your marksmanship.  Windy Hill would be a pretty good place to practice, too.  On the other hand, last I heard, for example, at Wesmar you were required to shoot from the bench.   To my mind, that means I have no business going there.  Rabbit Ridge, I think you could probably shoot from prone if you wanted to, but you'd be kind of fighting with the benches while you did it.  I don't know anything about Caswell.  But I expect it's worth a trip. 
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Offline Specialkay

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Re: Got my first 10/22
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2015, 03:12:10 PM »
Positions:  The first step to know if you're doing it right is to know what right looks like.  The second step is to develop self awareness of your own body. 

I may be nitpicking here, or I may be totally incorrect, but when I'm getting into some of these positions, I can do it in front of a mirror and see if it looks right. Some of them I can't. Without a complicated set of mirrors strategically placed, that is. So wouldn't it be better to know what right feels like, rather than what it looks like? I'm just trying to find a way to make sure I'm getting it accurately.

You may have noticed that in Appleseed we teach the "steady hold factors" counterclockwise around the body - starting with the support hand.  Using that method may help you to not miss anything when practicing your position.

I either missed, or don't remember the "steady hold factors." Going to have to read up on that. I remember just about all of the rest of it though, especially the 6 steps to firing a shot.

About ranges: . . . I'd contact range leadership (or a board member) and simply ask for a tour during normal operating hours.

Probably not a bad idea. Now to narrow the list down a little . . .
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Offline Specialkay

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Re: Got my first 10/22
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2015, 03:27:41 PM »
It sounds like you're near to Greensboro.

Nailed it. Spot on.

All of these are ranges that offer daily fees. . .

Thanks for the list. Some of those I wasn't aware of.

I was mainly operating off this list:
http://www.ncwildlife.org/Hunting/BeforetheHunt/ShootingRanges.aspx

Using the list, I was looking more into alamancewildlifeclub.org, dprc.org, phashoots.com, or rockinghamcountygunclub.com. Although they are all clubs.

Triple Target sounds like it may work. I'll have to give them a call.

I don't know anything about Caswell.  But I expect it's worth a trip.

I knew someone who went to the public range. I don't know if it was in Caswell or the one in Troy. I think it was the Caswell one he went to. Anyway, he said it was fine if you want to show up and shoot all day. Other than that, it isn't worth the trip. It can get kinda busy on weekends and good shooting days. To the point that you may be waiting several hours for a lane to open up, as others have learned how busy they can be and just dig in for a long stay.

I go to Calibers for handgun shooting, and one of the employees told me not to bother going to Caswell as it was a waste of time (I think for the reasons stated above, although I didn't drill him). He said the one in Troy was just about the only "open" rifle range he knew of that he would tell people to go to, and even at that it's hit or miss.

I don't know if that recommendation comes because he doesn't want a bunch of "newbies" bogging down his favorite shooting spot, or if he literally doesn't shoot rifles. I don't know.
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Offline Moylan

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Re: Got my first 10/22
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2015, 03:52:56 PM »
I have the luxury of a slightly unusual work schedule, which allows me to go to the range (on those rare occasions when I can make time) on week days.  I'm usually the only one there (well, me and my kids).  It helps a lot.  I'd be afraid to go to the Caswell range on a Saturday, based on things I've heard about it.  Not just long lines, but unsafe shooters.  :-( 

BTW, the "Steady hold factors" that Rusty mentioned are the elements of taking up good solid positions.  You might not have heard the words "steady hold factors" but you saw instructors walk around someone modeling each position, pointing out the important things.  Support elbow under the rifle.  Sling snug and smooth across the back of the hand.  Etc.  I'd agree with Rusty that for almost all of these, you can check yourself on them in dry practice.  You can check to see if you're dragging wood (touching the stock with your trigger finger).  You can check to see if you're on your toes, or if your feet are as flat as you can comfortably lay them, etc.  It's just a matter of consciously walking through each of the steady hold factors as you take up the position, and then rechecking yourself at various intervals. 

I think you're onto a crucial point when you say you don't want to train yourself to do things wrong.  That's a biggie.  But don't let that stop you from practicing.  Worst case is that you'll improve a bunch of things about your positions while still leaving some other stuff that you need to fix, which the instructors will help you with the next time you come to AS.  So your dry practice after the next AS can then focus on those few things that still need work--all the rest will have become second nature already.  Maybe a few of those things you'll need to fix, will be problems you've developed in dry practice.  OK, that's a worry, but not a big enough worry to stop you from practicing.  Just be as careful as you can about it, on your own. 

I'm kind of doing the same thing with handguns right now.  Trying to learn to improve my fundamentals.  Can't afford a class just yet, or find the time to take one anyway.  So I'm doing it with books, on my own.  I am very concerned that I'll teach myself some bad habits.  But my shooting is still improving as I go, because I know I'm building a lot of good habits in the meantime.  It's not perfect, doing it alone, but I'll take a class just as soon as I can.  Same with you...you're already figuring out when your next AS is.  So don't be too cautious about your practice. 
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Offline FiremanBob

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Re: Got my first 10/22
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2015, 03:53:27 PM »
The specific points about body, support arm, legs, hands, etc. that we teach when we introduce each of the positions are the Steady Hold Factors. A detailed review of the steady hold factors of each position is a good idea for a series of Appleseed newsletter articles. Thank you for planting it. I may even put one out in next week's edition.

You don't have to look at yourself to know if you have your position right. Remember the NPOA Drill? Get into position, make sure to relax your body and your support arm, put your sights on the target; then close your eyes and breathe twice. Now open your eyes but don't move. If your sights are still on the target, you have natural point of aim on the target. If not, you were using muscles to force the sights onto the target. Examine your position, refine it, and try again.
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Offline Specialkay

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Re: Got my first 10/22
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2015, 05:55:58 PM »
I think you're onto a crucial point when you say you don't want to train yourself to do things wrong.  That's a biggie.  But don't let that stop you from practicing.  Worst case is that you'll improve a bunch of things about your positions while still leaving some other stuff that you need to fix, which the instructors will help you with the next time you come to AS.

Thanks for the encouragement. That puts my mind at ease quite a bit.

When doing a dry fire practice session, how many "shots" should I take? How long should I be doing it for? How many different positions should I try? Maybe those are all personal questions, I just don't know how much is not enough.

I'm kind of doing the same thing with handguns right now.  Trying to learn to improve my fundamentals.  Can't afford a class just yet, or find the time to take one anyway.  So I'm doing it with books, on my own.

How much use can you really get out of a book on shooting? Just curious.
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Offline Moylan

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Re: Got my first 10/22
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2015, 06:04:19 PM »
When doing a dry fire practice session, how many "shots" should I take? How long should I be doing it for? How many different positions should I try? Maybe those are all personal questions, I just don't know how much is not enough.
Ten or fifteen minutes a few times a week will make a world of difference.

Quote
How much use can you really get out of a book on shooting? Just curious.
A surprisingly good amount!  I mean, there's dry practice involved, too, along with range time.  If you're just reading, you're not going to make progress.  You need to practice the stuff you're reading!  But a good book can make a huge difference.  And a multitude of good books can make an even bigger difference.  Various points of view, arguments among authors about the best way to do things, and why...all that stuff is just wonderful. 

If you're interested in good books on the kind of shooting we teach at AS, a great place to start is with Gunny Owens's series.  I love it.  He's got his own views, of course, which aren't necessarily exactly what we teach at AS.  But that's fine.  Like I said, multiple points of view! 

http://www.amazon.com/Leather-Sling-Shooting-Positions/dp/1939812720/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1441141325&sr=8-1&keywords=owens+leather+sling+shooting&pebp=1441141333223&perid=03S9NP1678AYXWDG2P81
http://www.amazon.com/Sight-Alignment-Trigger-Control-The/dp/1939812674/ref=pd_bxgy_14_text_y
http://www.amazon.com/Reading-Wind-Coaching-Techniques-Owens/dp/1939812739/ref=pd_bxgy_14_text_z
The chief mark of the Declaration of Independence is the theory of equality.  It is the pure classic conception that no man must aspire to be anything more than a citizen, and that no man should endure to be anything less. 

--GK Chesterton

I believe in liberty very much as Jefferson did, allowing for the fact that a hundred years of history and experience have taught me to believe a little more than he did in original sin.

--also GK Chesterton

Offline Specialkay

  • Retired IIT
  • Jr. Member
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  • Posts: 88
  • Greensboro, NC
Re: Got my first 10/22
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2015, 10:34:47 PM »
Thanks for the book suggestions. I'll look into them.

Thanks to everyone for helping out so much. I feel much less uneasy about going to a new gun range. I can't wait till my tech sights come in so I can install them, take it to the range, and get it all sighted in.
May 2016 - Rifleman - Ramseur (216)
June 10, 2017 - KD Qualified - Ramseur (33/40)
June 11, 2017 - KD Perfect Score - Ramseur (40/40)