1000 yard

[comuaiki]

This post is a feeler I thought I would thow out there to get some feedback.  I know the the goal for Appleseed is teach students how to shoot well out to 400 yards and they do that well.  I would like to see if Appleseed would be willing to exceed it's scope and consider a course of instruction for a 1K+ class.

Given there are not many ranges of this capability within Appleseed's purview, what woulld it take to get something like this going?  With the current evolution of long range shooting and it's demand there are classes out there that teach this but, most of these classes are cost prohibitive to the average shooter and their pocketbook.  Appleseed's courses have always been within reach of the average US citizen and it's concepts are just that, to educate us about our military roots and what gave us our independance.  In keeping with this tradition, the conditions of the modern battlefield have come a long way in the last two hundred years and we no longer engage out enemy within flintlock ranges.  The modern centerfire rifle has given us the ability to touch our enemy at much longer distances and the insturments in the battle field prove that.

As civilians I believe it is still important for us to uphold the second amendment and a course of this nature would be a component of protecting our second amendment..

This is a big question.  Thoughts...

[Two Wolves]

My bucket list:

go to a KD shoot at Wittington and hit the white buffalo.   

[Maximum Ordinate]

That is a pretty big question.  I'm glad you asked. 

As the junior member of a group helping to establish instructional standards for new offerings, I'd like to offer some perspective.  Aspects that we need to consider before we do something new include:

1.  Do we have facilities?
2.  Can we effectively grow instructors for the events?
3.  Is there a sustainable market?
4.  Can we offer the instruction safely at a reasonable price?
5.  Lastly, and most importantly, does the activity support the Appleseed Mission?

The Project Appleseed mission is to wake up sleeping Americans to the realization that our Liberty is slipping away.  We do that by sharing the events of April 19th, 1775 and other stories about both the Founders and the ordinary men and women who stepped out of their homes to make extraordinary sacrifices on our behalf.  These are sacrifices for which we owe a debt.  That debt can only be paid forward to our children and their children.

We teach the Art of Marksmanship because that skill is intimately entwined with our struggle for Liberty.  Quite frankly, it's also how we bring people in to hear about our shared heritage.  Modern battlefields don't concern us. I sometimes explain that we help people shoot better than they thought they could and then give them something extra - some chicken soup for the American soul.

The bottom line answer to your question is:  maybe in the future, if there's a direct tie to our mission and motivated volunteers to make that happen.  Our most precious resource is the time and efforts of our volunteers.

We are always looking for folks who hear our heritage and believe it's important enough to continue to share.  Have you scored Rifleman yet?  Has someone talked to you about how to join us?   

in Liberty,
Rusty

Edit to add:  I, too, would love to get to Wittington and see if I know what I'm about.   

[Mark Davis]

We have 1200 yards at  Samuel Whittamore range, Three Forks MT.
The range is undeveloped. but the landowner is exploring options. He has no funds to put into the range.
Appleseed in Montana is tough sell, with most people thinking they know how to shoot, and most have a crazy notion that they are free.
The range is located 60 miles north of Yellowstone park and can be used ten months of the year. It's closed May and June while cattle graze.
Anybody visiting in the area can PM me to see if we can meet and do some shooting.

[muffin308]

Yes, it is good to float ideas and put out feelers!

Here is a link on youtube that will describe what it actually takes to shoot at those distances.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUx-lC8Eiqc   Watch the whole series and then you will know.

No... it is not AS level shooting.

[509gman]

I'm thinking that there are already a few groups that focus on long range exclusively; if we send shooters their way they might be more likely to send some that need the rough edges knocked off to us. Kinda like what we keep trying to get the hi power folks to do.

[hankh]

Howdy All;

... or, ya might talk to these folks near Price, Ut.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqwG2caxNo8

hank

[Jerry Hall]

Dearest comuaiki,
As there are no further Appleseed events scheduled at the NRA Whittington Center for this year, I would strongly suggest that you fulfill the requisites to attend (http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=43081.0) , and then start planning to attend. The fundamentals of rifle marksmanship are the foundation key to all forms of rifle marksmanship.
During a Full Distance Appleseed Clinic at the Whittington Center the Program of Instruction includes firing at distances to 1100 yards.

" Happy Trails...",
Jerry

[TaosGlock]

Actually for the NRA Whittington Center we still have a standard 2 day event Sept 5-6 and a 2 day UDC in Oct. 10-11
We usually make it over to the 1000M White Buff at the other range.
If not we settle on the 910 yard IDPA size steel at the Coors Range which we work in at every event during the KD portion.

[comuaiki]

Wow!

I appologize for my delayed response to those who have submitted their input and the others who have remained neutral but read this post.  As a member of the RWVA I am rather supprised by some of the responses to my inquiry.  Some of the responese leave me feeling that I am not qualified to ask such a question unless I am both a member of this orginazationn and have scored high enough on the AQT to rank Rifleman since I have so few posts.

Without a doubt I can say the Appleseed courses have definately refined my shooting skills and made me a better shooter, yet those who endeavor to become better beyond 400yds have to seek other methods outside of Appleseed.  My post was just a feeler and just that, with responses leaving me the impression Appleseed at this time is not ready or prepared to pursue a 1K class.

At this point in time I am not innterested in becomming a F-Class shooter, wrather i want to consistantly hit a 1K target like a lot of others on this forum.  Most of the senior instructors in Appleseed enjoy this sport beyond believing in in the Appleseed mission of Marksmanship and American heritage.  My interest is no different and strongly endorse the mission of this orginization.

Again I seek input from those wishing to.

[PHenry]

Comuaiki,
While I greatly share your interest in pressing my own skill out to 1K, it's really outside the scope of what we teach and promote on the marksmanship side - the 4MOA standard of the Rifleman. That's not to say we couldn't "dip our toes" in that pond where venues allow during a KD event. Of course, there is the cost of rifles capable of making hits at 1K - well beyond the budget of the "common man".

As to your qualifications to make such a suggestion - please. Were Fred a a few other shooters "qualified" to start a program intended to save a country? Ideas withheld for fear of insufficient "qualification" are merely daydreams with no chance of propelling our worthy cause forward. Ego is something we check at the door around here - everyone here is qualified to offer an idea or make a suggestion. Keep the ideas coming. 

[Maximum Ordinate]

<snip>  As a member of the RWVA I am rather supprised by some of the responses to my inquiry.  Some of the responese leave me feeling that I am not qualified to ask such a question unless I am both a member of this orginazationn and have scored high enough on the AQT to rank Rifleman since I have so few posts.

I hope you weren't referring to my reply.  I encourage everyone who has attended an Appleseed and shot a Rifleman's score to join us by accepting an Orange Hat and learning how to teach the same skills you demonstrated on the AQT.  As PHenry above is fond of saying - we learn marksmanship today so we can teach it tomorrow.

As far as shooting out to 1000 yards?  I'm sure it's awesome and I hope to have the opportunity to try one day (no ranges that far in my tri-state area).  In the meantime, I'll keep teaching students and hope they become better shooters (and instructors) than I.

We'd love to have you on the team!   

[Guntuckian]

The announcement for a KD at Park City, KY for October 2016 just was announced today on the Project Appleseed - Kentucky Facebook Page.  We are planning on shooting at 100, 200, 300, 400 yards for the AQTs.  We are also planning on having a bonus on Sunday afternoon out to 1,000 yards.

The maximum distance available is 1,700 meters, with 4 shooting positions.  We are not doing anything beyond 1,000 yards, though, for this KD.  But, there is room to expand in the future if there becomes a need.  For the upcoming KD, the range fee is $5 per day.  The resort rooms are $69 per night.  This is a considerable savings over typical rates at Thunder Valley.

--Gary

Check it out at www.Facebook.com/KentuckyRifleman for more details.  Also, look at the EIP on EBrite under Kentucky for more Information.

[azmule]

We do the same in Kingman, AZ - after a half-dozen or so KDAQTs at 100 through 400, we move back further 100yds at a time, ringing steel out to the range max of 1000.  Not so much though to teach 1K+ shooting as to give everyone a chance to verify the "extra" come-ups and trans-sonic limits of chosen rifle/ammo combinations.

[JoeZ]

My post was just a feeler and just that, with responses leaving me the impression Appleseed at this time is not ready or prepared to pursue a 1K class.

I beg to differ;
The precision rifle course I developed to shoot side by side with traditional (Legacy) Appleseed shooters was geared toward hitting our D targets out to 1000yds. We ran this last Dec and one of the four shooters could easily have made hits that far and one other shooter would have done fairly well. And by D target I mean just the 4 and 5 field, no 3's.

the aar is http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=43781.msg309408#msg309408

[sgtrock]

If you have been to an AS shoot you were given the necessary information to do your homework and take to what ever distance you want. If you want to go to beyond 400 to a 1000 yds come to Lewistown, PA And I will show you how to do it Standing on a 36" (that's inches) steel target. It's not that hard to do, if you are disciplined, come and I will teach, if you want to learn.

Known distance shooting is mind over matter, build a foundation, achieve NPOA and just relax into the sling, weather it be prone or standing.

Know your ammo, I cannot stress this enough. If you reload, great, get your FPS and do your calculations. Then get to a range and test drive. If you shoot Ball Ammo, well, it's in our curriculum.

But you should understand, that we teach, how to engage a target in a field of 400 to 500 yds. The same as any American a on a battle field. I say at my shoots, we don't teach Palma shooting. But if you want to learn that, we can have fun on an off weekend.

[PHenry]

get your FPS and do your calculations

always amazes me when I hear someone who reloads and does not own a chrono. Huh? I've even had a few argue that there is no need. Really? 

[George63]

get your FPS and do your calculations

always amazes me when I hear someone who reloads and does not own a chrono. Huh? I've even had a few argue that there is no need. Really? 

there is some reasoning to this, specifically the inaccuracies of consumer priced cronies - if you use the G7 BC (from the Litz book) and have access to do drop testing at distance then work backwards with a ballistic calculator (adjusting FPS until the model matches the data)

the old standard was to use the manufactures (inflated) G1 BC, then plug in your chrono FPS, then blame the ballistic software (which was probably the only thing that was right) when your bullet drop did not match the model

I own a chrono, but have not pulled it out for years

[Agrivere]

Brian litz recently did a chrono eval and it can certainly be an issue as the cheap ones aren't - or may not be how would you know? - super accurate. Interestingly the relatively new Magnetospeed chronos tested extremely well, and I highly recommend them. I use mine all the time.

[PHenry]

There are often two "accuracy coincidences" for a given round - maybe more. Most HP competitors I know load for group at lowest velocity - least powder - lowest recoil. Me, I load for max performance - the terminal kind. On more than one round, I found that best groups did not occur until I reached or exceeded mil spec FPS.

For me, a good chrono is mission-critical to reloading for safety, accuracy and performance. I've seen HP guys run sub-MOA at a fraction of potential velocity and for what they do / want, that's perfect. I don't load anything I wouldn't carry into the field and I never practice or compete with any rifle I wouldn't lug into the brush. Of course that makes me the "black sheep" in NRA HP, but to each his own.

G63 - dang glad to see you still around sir. 

[sgtrock]

I concur with PHenry. I use no subsonic or light loads for any of my shooting, I am better off staying in shape with full power loads. That said, most all my rifles are very accurate by staying one half to one grain under published load data for that particular round. With my cross over hunting ammo being the same wieght I don't change anything but the bullet. Zero's are very close as well. Keeps it simple for me.
My AR loves the Sierra accuracy load published for 69gr. SMK's. Plus it runs great with a drop of 3/10ths of a grain for the Barnes 70grs for hunting. Simple enough for me.

Every rifle is different, so work your loads for that particular rifle, a chrony is a must have item in my book from the start. Published load data will get you close, but I need to know exactly where I stand, just me.
Thanks

[henschman]

I think the truth is that any time a  Appleseed is held at a range where 1000 yards is available, it will be made use of.  I don't know how anyone who calls himself a Rifleman could be on a range like that without wanting to give it a go, and see if that little "10" on the old elevation knob actually works as advertised!  I know any time we have had an event at the Badlands Tactical range in Grandfield, we do plenty of work inside the Rifleman's Quarter Mile, but we always let anybody with the desire try to reach out and touch that 1000 yard silhouette.  Which reminds me, I need to get a full distance weekend set up out there for 2016.