Need help with support arm

[Minutemom]

I need some help from all you riflemen out there 

In my dry firing at home, I feel like I am really learning to "settle into" my NPOA.  When I am completely relaxed, I feel like my support arm is too flat.  I have to really stretch my body out to get my sights up to the target.  Could you all have a look and tell me if it is OK, or if I need to shorten my sling, or modify it somehow so my support hand is farther back?  Thanks for any help you can give me!

Chris

[eaglescouter]

If your support hand were further back towards the trigger guard you would receive better sling support.  This can be accomplished in a permanent manner by moving the sling stud, or adding a hand stop.

Hand stop:  A barrier that provides a repeatable position for the support hand.  (In the 'old days these were normal features on rifles used for position shooting, and frequently were attached to a flush mount rail on the bottom side of the stock to allow the stop to be repositioned wherever needed)

Suggestion:  Hit the tractor supply store (or similar country store for horse owners), buy some 'vet wrap'.  This non sticky grippy tape will not leave goo on your rifle.  Then fashion something about the size of 1/2 of a chalk board eraser (1" thick, 2" wide and 2" long).  Vet wrap that to your rifle and use it for a repositionable hand stop.

Here is a fancy one:  http://www.laruetactical.com/larue-tactical-handstop-2-piece-set

[RimfireJim]

Your hand position is going to be a result of arm length, upper body proportions, and rifle and sight geometry to put the sights on target with NPOA. Someone with short arms, long neck and low sights will have a different hand position and arm angles than someone with the opposite. Then, ideally, your hand is against a hand stop adjusted to that position (as found on target rifles or added per above suggestion) and then the sling is adjusted for the right length for that hand position. If you shorten your sling and move your hand back, the front of your rifle will rise and your NPOA will be off. Scope height ("sight geometry") is part of the picture: the higher the scope above the rifle, the lower the rest of the rifle will need to be and the farther forward your support hand will need to be.

Glad to hear you are practicing NPOA and dry firing - the best non-bang for zero bucks you can do to improve your shooting!

[oladcock]

Yep, put a sling stud a good 4" back from the barrel band. Odds are that rifle is too long for you and the slick butt plate will make keeping NPOA more difficult. If you think it's length is OK, saw 1" off that dude and put a small slip-on "Limbsaver" rubber butt pad on it, that'll result in zero change in length of pull and make it sticky enough it won't slip around. If that's too long, saw another inch off. You'll most likely need to move the scope forward a bit, and you probably need to raise the stock a bit with a cheek pad, or is that one you can barely see, looks like you are "hovering". After while, you'll be able to pick up any rifle and shoot it well, just not as well as you can with one that's fits you a bit better. It's YOUR rifle, do what ya gotta do to make it fit you....O.L.

[slim]

I'd crank that sling to about half the length it is right now. The "triangle" between your support arm and the rifle should be closer to a right angle than an obtuse.  You'll probably need to change your orientation to the target as well. It looks almost like you're laying flat. Get up on those elbows a bit!

You may want to lay down without a sling first to figure out where the rifle rests on that open support hand and then add the sling to that good position.

[jmdavis]

I think that there are some basic issues.

1. with no clothing to grip that sling will slide down and make your position lower and lower. A sweatshirt for shooting will help with this.

2. You do not need your hand touching the sling swivel. While that works for people with long arms it is not necessary. As you bring your hand back you will likely need to loosen the sling rather than tighten it. When you have achieved the position that works, then mark the sling so that it is repeatable.

3. Olympic shooters are required to have at least a 30 degree angle to the support arm. You are not required to do that but as you pull your hand back and loosen your sling you will find that the issue of being able to get the rifle on target goes away.

4. Once you find the hand position that works, mark it with skateboard tape so that you can find it EVERY time. You don't need anything more than that for a .22 or .223. In general you don't want to use a handstop without using a glove on the support hand. You might try a glove.

Some of the best prone advice and coaching that I have had has come from Ken Roxburgh, USMC Ret. and coach and primary instructor of the Remington-Bushmaster Highpower Team.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UE8RDSyrJY

He's a crusty old Marine, but he knows how to coach and instruct.

[james76]

A flat position works well for me but if your starting in a high position and end up flat that will be trouble. Tight sling,grip tape, glove,shooting coat will lock you in and might help.

[Minutemom]

Thank you to everyone for your help!  I have a lot of different things to try!

JMdavis, I find that as I relax, my hand slides down to the sling swivel.  Would the skateboard tape help with that?  Is it possible to relax TOO much?  I find that I need to use some muscle tension to keep my hand back farther, which causes my sights to wobble slightly.  When I'm completely relaxed with my hand against the swivel, my sights are rock solid. 

I'm going to try out all of the suggestions I was given and see what works.  I really like the idea of a rubber butt pad, because the slick surface on my Rueger slides around on my shoulder, even with skateboard tape.  Although when I am in prone, I am so stretched out that the butt is usually resting on the ground.

Oladcock, it is my goal to be able to pick up any rifle and shoot score with it.  I've shot rifleman with an instructor's rifle, but have yet to do it with my own.  I feel like I'm really close and hope to do it at the next shoot.  I did have to add a cheek pad when I put my scope on - you can't see it in the picture.

Thanks guys!  Excited to try out some stuff!

Chris

[Bluesteel]

Thank you to everyone for your help!  I have a lot of different things to try!

JMdavis, I find that as I relax, my hand slides down to the sling swivel.  Would the skateboard tape help with that?  Is it possible to relax TOO much?  I find that I need to use some muscle tension to keep my hand back farther, which causes my sights to wobble slightly.  When I'm completely relaxed with my hand against the swivel, my sights are rock solid. 

I'm going to try out all of the suggestions I was given and see what works.  I really like the idea of a rubber butt pad, because the slick surface on my Rueger slides around on my shoulder, even with skateboard tape.  Although when I am in prone, I am so stretched out that the butt is usually resting on the ground.

Oladcock, it is my goal to be able to pick up any rifle and shoot score with it.  I've shot rifleman with an instructor's rifle, but have yet to do it with my own.  I feel like I'm really close and hope to do it at the next shoot.  I did have to add a cheek pad when I put my scope on - you can't see it in the picture.

Thanks guys!  Excited to try out some stuff!

Chris

Some interesting replies here.  I like JMDavis' answers.   I've been hesitant to reply since you didn't provide a picture from the right side.  However, your bolded reply indicates to me that your right elbow is much too far to the right (away from the body) or your buttstock length of pull is too long (or combination of the two) and that you probably aren't pulling up your right knee to get your torso more onto your left side (although not really necessary for thin folks).  If you are having a lot of trouble keeping the loop sling up high (if is starts sliding down, you're more likely to let your support hand slide forward to retain sling tension), putting it on low by the elbow (just below the bicep) is an acceptable variation that is used by some competitive shooters.

[LawDog]

Minutemom - you might find some good visual reinforcement in this video, particularly around the 5:30 mark. 
LD

[dond]

Having your upper arm and forearm make about a 30 degree angle at the elbow, as suggested by jmdavis is a good suggestion. Doing that and having your loop high in your armpit will give you a good triangle with your arm and sling for the best stability available. Triangles are best for support. This will also keep your loop from slipping down your arm. It will also make it much easier to let your support arm be TOTALLY relaxed, which is a necessity. An alternative to the skateboard tape is a non-skid rubber product made by Kiwi for shoes, which is sticky on one side. It is sold by Wal-Greens, and you could also use it to tape to the plastic buttstock to keep it from sliding in your shoulder, although the rubber buttpad would probably better. Attaching the loop below the bicep, near the elbow is not a suitable suggestion because it will not give you a good triangle, therefore, no support. That is a problem many shooters have when they use the hasty sling improperly.

[Charles McKinley]

You could also put lower rings on the scope.  I will help get your head down.

[Minutemom]

Bluesteel, thank you for reminding me to check the position of my right arm and leg.  I'm pretty thin and flexible, so I'm not sure if I am actually putting my weight on my left side.  I think I am pretty flat on my stomach.  What is the "buttstock length of pull?" 

Ha ha, so many things to remember!  I can't wait until it all becomes automatic for me.  What I need to do is spend some time just going through the steady hold factors one by one as I'm in position, Like Mr. Pete taught me to do .  Does anyone know where I can print out a list, as I'm sure to forget something?
-Chris

[Bluesteel]

Bluesteel, thank you for reminding me to check the position of my right arm and leg.  I'm pretty thin and flexible, so I'm not sure if I am actually putting my weight on my left side.  I think I am pretty flat on my stomach.  What is the "buttstock length of pull?" 

Ha ha, so many things to remember!  I can't wait until it all becomes automatic for me.  What I need to do is spend some time just going through the steady hold factors one by one as I'm in position, Like Mr. Pete taught me to do .  Does anyone know where I can print out a list, as I'm sure to forget something?
-Chris

Length of pull is the distance from the butt to the trigger.  If you are small/short arms, then it might be a bit too long for you, which causes your arms to be too "stretched out."  A standard 10/22 has a 13.5" LOP, which is usually fine for most small adults and teens, but may not be for you.  Pulling the right knee up helps to relieve pressure from your belly and diaphram, as it will slightly raise your right hip, putting a bit more weight onto the left side, which makes breathing easier and reduces muzzle rise and fall with your breath. 

[wingwrench]

Minutemom;

  How well do you do when you go from -dryfire- to livefire?? I seem to tend to do the same thing, (stretch out in prone position). That gives a longer "support radius" which I always thought added to sight stability, hence accuracy provided you are relaxed into true NPOA. Just my two cents worth.....

[jmdavis]

Again I suggest watching the Roxburgh video linked above from the 2012 Creedmoor cup clinic. What Ken teaches along with practice brought my 300 yard rapid scores from the low 90's to the high 90's with cleans (100's) on occasion.

Pay particular attention to the Olympic X discussion in the video. It can work.

[fisherdawg]

I'd crank that sling to about half the length it is right now. The "triangle" between your support arm and the rifle should be closer to a right angle than an obtuse.  You'll probably need to change your orientation to the target as well. It looks almost like you're laying flat. Get up on those elbows a bit!

You may want to lay down without a sling first to figure out where the rifle rests on that open support hand and then add the sling to that good position.

Minutemom,
Slim's suggestion about Orientation Angle is the very first place to start -- try working a bit at time toward 30 to 45 degrees toward your support side until you find that place where your elbow is directly under the rifle.  I think he's correct -- you're "laying on your rifle". This will move your eye closer to the scope so you may need to move the scope forward in the rings. In your photo it appears you have some room along the scope tube to do so. If it needs to be further forward you will need a longer rail.  Brownells has 'em.
Then apply all the Steady Hold Factors for prone starting at you Open Relaxed Support Head working counter clockwise until you get to the Turkey Neck Cheek Weld.
Length of Pull is important as a Rifle that is too large or too small, that is beyond the ability of your personal body geometry to conform to rifle, will be very difficult to shoot with consistent, repeatable, accuracy.
The Rifle's length of pull is the distance form the trigger to the buttstock. Your length of pull can be measured by bending your elbow to 90 degrees and measuring the distance to the pad of your trigger finger in the proper "exaggeratted C shape" you use when squeezing the trigger.
You can check rifle fit by laying the rifle on your forearm with your elbow in the 90 degree orientation (while standing, forearm parallel to the floor) and checking to see if your trigger finger can reach the trigger with the proper shape. If so apply the fundamentals of the position. If the buttstock is too long, time to break out  the saw.  there are good You Tube videos on this -- Larry Potterfield / Midway USA has one out there among others.
As Ken Roxburgh says "You will not be a consistently accurate shooter until you are consistently fundamental shooter"
The Fundamentals are no more than this:
Build a steady position
Find your NPOA and move it on to the target
Take every shoot by the six steps
(Shoot in Rifleman's cadence)
His videos are awesome, somewhat intermediate to advanced in approach, but totally awesome.
Yours in Liberty,
fisherdawg

[fisherdawg]

+1

Again I suggest watching the Roxburgh video linked above from the 2012 Creedmoor cup clinic. What Ken teaches along with practice brought my 300 yard rapid scores from the low 90's to the high 90's with cleans (100's) on occasion.

Pay particular attention to the Olympic X discussion in the video. It can work.

[Minutemom]

OK guys, I did try some different things this weekend, and shortening the sling definitely did not help.  I put a zip tie around the barrel and sling about 3 inches back from where the front sling swivel is, and took it outside to shoot some groups.  My position seemed MUCH better, and my groups were tight.  I think I may end up moving the swivel back.  I'm still not sure how I could keep my hand from sliding down the barrel when I'm completely relaxed.  Grippy tape didn't work.  Dang, I did forget to check my angle and length of pull.  I am going to pay attention to that next time.  It's a process, but a fun one!  I will try to have my son take some more pictures this week, with my hand stopped by the zip tie to see if you all think it looks better.
Chris

[Minutemom]

UPDATE:

Slim, Bluesteel, and Fisherdawg, you were all correct.  I watched the video and read back through all the posts, and then got down to dry fire.  I WAS "laying on my rifle."  I changed my orientation angle to closer to 45 degrees, brought my right knee way up, and PULLED MY RIGHT ELBOW IN (not yelling, just emphasizing, lol), and magically, the angle of my support arm became more of a triangle.  I also did not have as much of a sliding issue with my support hand.  It never occurred to me that the position of my trigger elbow was so crucial (duh!).  I am super excited to try out my "new" position with live fire and see how my groups come out.  Thank you so much to all of you who chimed in to help me with my issue.  Appleseed people are the best people in the world!!!!
Chris

[douglas34474]

Looking at the photo with your first post, IMHO the scope set up leaves some room for improvement.

First off, your head is way too far back. I doubt you have a good "turkey neck" with that hold. Your cheek should be resting on you trigger hand thumb as it goes over the stock, in front of the comb of the stock.

Second, I'll bet you're using a "jaw weld" and not resting your cheek bone on the comb of the stock.

This is a stock 10-22 set up with a scope the way I recommend.



The scope is far enough forward that when you sling up and turkey neck the scope has a clear, sharp outline as you look through it. I.E. Proper eye relief. The cheek (comb) riser lifts your head so that you get a consistent cheek weld, not trying to find somewhere on you jaw. When I sling up and get into position, I can have my eyes closed getting into position and when I open them, I don't have to find the correct head position either front to back or up and down. I'm looking right down the center of the scope with a proper eye relief.

This set up uses an EGC 20 MOA scope rail, Leupold 2x7-28 scope with Leupold low rings and a Triple K 3/4" comb riser. Note that the eye piece of the scope is even with the rear of the receiver. A lot more forward than your set up.

I know it's supposed to be "service rifle" but when the service put a scope on their rifles a comb riser was part of the set up.

[fisherdawg]

UPDATE:

Slim, Bluesteel, and Fisherdawg, you were all correct.  I watched the video and read back through all the posts, and then got down to dry fire.  I WAS "laying on my rifle."  I changed my orientation angle to closer to 45 degrees, brought my right knee way up, and PULLED MY RIGHT ELBOW IN (not yelling, just emphasizing, lol), and magically, the angle of my support arm became more of a triangle.  I also did not have as much of a sliding issue with my support hand.  It never occurred to me that the position of my trigger elbow was so crucial (duh!).  I am super excited to try out my "new" position with live fire and see how my groups come out.  Thank you so much to all of you who chimed in to help me with my issue.  Appleseed people are the best people in the world!!!!
Chris

Glad it hear that! Keep that dry fire practice up.  Just shoot a 'dry' AQT several time a week -- takes 15 fifteen minutes, but practice EVERYTHING perfectly. (If only I could be so good, but this is what I aspire to -- and good instruction is aspirational, I think).  You'll be amazed with the results.
fisherdawg

[Minutemom]

Thank you douglas34474!  I am going to check all your points tonight.  I think you may be right about my scope being too far back - I've been thinking that it may need an adjustment.  I'll pay more attention to my cheek weld to see if I need to build the comb up more.  It seems like your scope is much lower and closer to the barrel than mine is.

[fisherdawg]

UPDATE:

Slim, Bluesteel, and Fisherdawg, you were all correct.  I watched the video and read back through all the posts, and then got down to dry fire.  I WAS "laying on my rifle."  I changed my orientation angle to closer to 45 degrees, brought my right knee way up, and PULLED MY RIGHT ELBOW IN (not yelling, just emphasizing, lol), and magically, the angle of my support arm became more of a triangle.  I also did not have as much of a sliding issue with my support hand.  It never occurred to me that the position of my trigger elbow was so crucial (duh!).  I am super excited to try out my "new" position with live fire and see how my groups come out.  Thank you so much to all of you who chimed in to help me with my issue.  Appleseed people are the best people in the world!!!!
Chris

Glad it hear that! Keep that dry fire practice up.  Just shoot a 'dry' AQT several time a week -- takes 15 fifteen minutes, but practice EVERYTHING perfectly. (If only I could be so good, but this is what I aspire to -- and good instruction is aspirational, I think).  You'll be amazed with the results.
fisherdawg

When I say everything, I mean build a proper position with every Steady Hold Factor Correct, find your NPOA and shift it onto the traget, and take every shot by the Six Steps.  When you Dry Fire, it is best to keep your Trigger Elbow planted. If you cannot operate the bolt without moving the trigger elbow, see if you can find a helper to oerate the bolt for you on each shoot.

[Minutemom]

Thanks for the encouragement fisherdawg!  I will also aspire to a dry AQT several times a week, and hope to beat my best score of 226 at the next Appleseed    Then it will be on to centerfire 

[fisherdawg]

Looking at the photo with your first post, IMHO the scope set up leaves some room for improvement.

First off, your head is way too far back. I doubt you have a good "turkey neck" with that hold. Your cheek should be resting on you trigger hand thumb as it goes over the stock, in front of the comb of the stock.

Second, I'll bet you're using a "jaw weld" and not resting your cheek bone on the comb of the stock.

This is a stock 10-22 set up with a scope the way I recommend.



The scope is far enough forward that when you sling up and turkey neck the scope has a clear, sharp outline as you look through it. I.E. Proper eye relief. The cheek (comb) riser lifts your head so that you get a consistent cheek weld, not trying to find somewhere on you jaw. When I sling up and get into position, I can have my eyes closed getting into position and when I open them, I don't have to find the correct head position either front to back or up and down. I'm looking right down the center of the scope with a proper eye relief.

This set up uses an EGC 20 MOA scope rail, Leupold 2x7-28 scope with Leupold low rings and a Triple K 3/4" comb riser. Note that the eye piece of the scope is even with the rear of the receiver. A lot more forward than your set up.

I know it's supposed to be "service rifle" but when the service put a scope on their rifles a comb riser was part of the set up.

Nice set up! +++1.
Where does one obtain that rail & cheek riser? Brownell's?
fisherdawg

[fisherdawg]

Thanks for the encouragement fisherdawg!  I will also aspire to a dry AQT several times a week, and hope to beat my best score of 226 at the next Appleseed    Then it will be on to centerfire 

MinuteMom,
I'm sure you'll reach your goal. On CF too!  Then why don't you aspire to do it with iron sights?
Your confidence will be unassailable!
fisherdawg

[Minutemom]

I agree, very nice set up!  Uh-oh, this could become a really expensive hobby.....as if the price of ammo isn't enough, now I want to go and buy a bunch of gack 

[Minutemom]

Iron sights - yes!!!  If my poor middle -aged eyes will cooperate...

[oladcock]

I agree, very nice set up!  Uh-oh, this could become a really expensive hobby.....as if the price of ammo isn't enough, now I want to go and buy a bunch of gack 

Keep in mind the more handy and creative (and bold) you are, the less $$$ it'll cost approaching zero. Improvise, adapt, and overcome....O.L.