Oathkeepers Mandate to Attend Appleseed

[George Hacker]

Stuart Rhodes wrote an article entitled, "Oath Keepers is Going "Operational" by Forming Special "Civilization Preservation" Teams."  Halfway down the text, it reads:

Like SF, all Oath Keepers will be expected to learn light infantry skills. They will all be encouraged to attend an Appleseed Rifle Program and shoot to "Rifleman" standards. Just as the Marines say that every Marine is a Rifleman (even the cooks) so will every Oath Keeper be a rifleman.

Source:  http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2013/10/01/oath-keepers-is-going-operational-by-forming-special-civilization-preservation-teams/

[FiremanBob]

This is very cool. My neighbor is a regional honcho for OK in central VA. I'll talk with him about the article this week.

[number6]

I am all for filling the lines and spreading the knowledge and skills to an entirely new group, and I know there are several Oathkeepers here in Michigan.

In reading the article, we need to make sure that when Oathkeepers attend and in our discussions with them, that we only provide the Rifle Marksmanship portion of what they describe these teams to learn.

And we also need to reinforce the fact that as an organization we are apolitical, and in addition to marksmanship we strive to teach people the principles of what our Founders believed and that they gave us an alternative to their methods and we should use it.

The description of what is to be learned by these Oathkeeper teams while valuable and beneficial skills, IN MY OPINION, are preparing for the worst instead of working to change the system.

number6

[techres]

Ditto the concerns.  The temptation is to crossover the two groups and start doing Non-Appleseed things at Appleseed events.

I took a quick look and see that concern is not unfounded:

http://oath-keepers.blogspot.com/2009/04/oath-ceremonies-at-appleseed-shoots-and.html

It is vital that we keep clear on what hat we have on and when.

[George Hacker]

And we also need to reinforce the fact that as an organization we are apolitical, and in addition to marksmanship we strive to teach people the principles of what our Founders believed and that they gave us an alternative to their methods and we should use it.

The description of what is to be learned by these Oathkeeper teams while valuable and beneficial skills, IN MY OPINION, are preparing for the worst instead of working to change the system.

You are correct, number6.  Oathkeepers isn't trying to help us save the nation - that is our job, our mission.  I have talked with some Oathkeepers leadership earlier this summer and they believe Project Appleseed can save the nation.  They are trying to help prepare their communities in the event we fail.  Hopefully they will bring family and friends with them to our shoots.

Also agree with techres, we can't become confused about who we are.

ShadowMan

[Nero]

The description of what is to be learned by these Oathkeeper teams while valuable and beneficial skills, IN MY OPINION, are preparing for the worst instead of working to change the system.

number6

Agreed, and we need to keep the distinction clear.  OTOH, I'm not unhappy to have them out there hedging our bet.

[SteelThunder]

Ditto the concerns.  The temptation is to crossover the two groups and start doing Non-Appleseed things at Appleseed events.

I took a quick look and see that concern is not unfounded:

http://oath-keepers.blogspot.com/2009/04/oath-ceremonies-at-appleseed-shoots-and.html

It is vital that we keep clear on what hat we have on and when.

We should NOT be conducting non-Appleseed activities within the Appleseed context.  Especially with a hat on.   All it takes is is an Appleseed Shoot Boss allowing a ceremony for a more subversive group to conduct a "ceremony", the pix are posted on the internet (and the internet is forever) and one reporter looking to create some sensationalism...and PRESTO! 

[jmdavis]

I have posted this before but suggest that some of you need to read it again. A 501c3 should be non partisan and it's primary work should be non political. That does not mean that the organization has to be a-political.

As for oath keepers not "helping to save america." Do you know what the oath referred to is? For educational purposes I will post it here.

*******
I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

In the National Guard (Army or Air)

I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States and the State of (STATE NAME) against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the Governor of (STATE NAME) and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to law and regulations. So help me God.
*******

Pledging your life to the defense of the Constitution would seem to me to be the ultimate in "working to save America."

If you are afraid to stand with those who have taken such an oath, fine. But in the words of Nathaniel in "Last of the Mohicans"... "Do what you want with your own scalp Major, don't be telling us what to do with ours..."Rhoads has been a friend to Appleseed since before most of you had heard of it. When the program was struggling, he wrote a story that garnered some early and valuable publicity.

This topic makes the allusion that a number of Appleseed instructors and shootbosses think of Oathkeepers as subversive. Do you really intend to do that? Because if you do you are a far cry from the men who pledged their lives, fortunes, and sacred honor to this nation.

[techres]

1. No professional organization runs out of organization stuff at their event.  Especially one that prizes SOM SOM.
2. The reason is, you as a volunteer change the entire course of the nation wide program when you do so, and in fact are speaking for more than yourself.
3. Oathkeepers may have a good thing that they offer, but that does not change the fact that we have no formal arrangement, informal arrangement, or partnership that I have been informed of and without that i would never dream to do this as a SB/RH/whatever.
4. Having people take oaths against foreign and domestic enemies at an Appleseed kinda goes against the entire, we are not XYZ stuff that we do at the beginning of every event.
5. We have been through this before with religious ceremonies at events and came up with solutions to respect that and yet make clear separations for both Appleseed and for our attendees.

As a person who has worked at national, I see this and cringe for implications and repercussions.
As the media guy who gets to answer on TV for Appleseed, I see new ammo to get blindsided with.
As an SC/SB I see hats taking on outside roles and putting them into this role.  I was trained to wear one hat at a time.
As an Appleseeder I can say that if there had been an oath at my first seed, I would have not come back.  Many of my students since then would be exactly the same.

Hope that helps.

Techres

P.S.  Take nothing of the above as a statement of how I feel about Oathkeepers today.

[George Hacker]

If I considered Oathkeepers to be subversive, I wouldn't have spent a weekend at their outdoor conference in Idaho earlier this summer.  Let me clarify my earlier post.  "What you [Project Appleseed] are doing is awesome.  You folks are true patriots.  The stories you tell have the power to save the nation," said the Oathkeepers leader I talked with in Idaho.  Their words, not mine.

Sorry I didn't make that clear in my earlier post.  I have nothing but respect for the Oathkeepers.  I still maintain that Project Appleseed is not Oathkeepers.  And Oathkeepers is not Project Appleseed.  Two different organizations with two different missions.  Both full of patriots who love their country.

ShadowMan

[jmdavis]

We agree on that Shadowman. I apologize for misunderstanding your post.

Techres,

No one is suggesting that Appleseeders take the services oath to "protect and defend" the constitution, though I personally consider it implied in the acceptance of American citizenship. The group wants to come for basic marksmanship training.  On the other hand I am specifically saying that those people who have taken that oath and joined oathkeepers are trying to save this country.

I think that you are creating a strawman arguement for something that is not proposed. The only oaths that I have heard with regard to Appleseed were specifically written and implemented by the advisory board (at least that's what I think it was called at the time, you would know better than I) to be required of instructors. Remember the instructor contracts?

We have had oathkeepers at Appleseeds for at least 4 years. The RWVA has enjoyed the benefits of the positive publicity from Rhoads and his organization. If you don't want their presence, just let them know. But don't equate the presence of the group with a requirement that doesn't exist to join their organization.

[techres]

jmdavis, I appreciate all the efforts and work of the Oathkeepers, but I also know how new attendees react to us and the addition of a oath ceremony would be a great issue.  We also have scouts and a ton of other orgs that do great work and are on parallel or similar work tracks - but keeping the difference is vital.

As for the affirmation, I do remember it and it was not my creation or baby - I just got implement it.  There is also a great difference between a volunteer making an affirmation and an attendee to a Appleseed event being presented with an Oathkeeper, or any other, oath ceremony.

So, no, this is not about disliking the Oathkeepers at all.  Far from it. 
This is about Appleseed being careful of our own mission/brand and keeping to that at our events lest we drive away some portion of our attendees or effect our brand unintentionally.

[Unbridled Liberty]

I took the Oath in 1975, and have been a member of OathKeepers since before I attended my first 'seed.  I met Stewart and spoke after him at a 2nd Amendment Rally at the Kentucky state Capitol a couple years ago.  I had the Kentucky OK coordinator on my line at Knob Creek.  We get along just fine.  OathKeepers are welcome on my line anytime, anywhere.

However, if they wanted to do an Oath ceremony at one of my shoots I would have to politely decline, for the reasons techres mentioned.  It is wise advice. 

UL

[Bluesteel]

A few things to consider and questions to ponder:

Stewart Rhodes wrote a very favorable and lengthy article in SWAT magazine back in Feb. 2008 about Project Appleseed.  When I purchased Tech-Sights several months back, a copy of this article was included.  So whether anyone likes it or not, Pre-Reg, 1st time Appleseed buyers of those wonderful sights that WE recommend are already associating Steward with Appleseed.  Edit:  Perhaps this came with my RWVA membership card.  Here's the article from our own site:
http://www.appleseedinfo.org/pdf/Swat_the_Appleseed_Project_Feb_2008.pdf
The 2nd and 3rd lines of that lengthy article state:  "But a rifleman is also more than a skilled marksman.  He is also ready and willing to use his rifle for its intended purpose - to defend life and liberty against all enemies, foreign and domestic."

Also, at 2 of the 3 shoots that I've been to, there has been a recital of the pledge of allegiance on both days (maybe at all 3 shoots but I don't recall that clearly).  When you study the history of the pledge (written by Francis Bellamy, a socialist), I don't see how this is any more appropriate than a pledge to defend the Constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic (a pledge that is required of naturalized citizens).  One could argue that the Pledge of allegiance is less appropriate, but since we have all been indoctrinated since childhood to recite it, we've become accustomed to doing so without giving it much thought.  Frankly, I'd be much more comfortable pledging to the Constitution than to the flag. 

As someone born in a communist nation (with many dead family friends to show for it) and naturalized as an American citizen, I'm not much for symbolism or indoctrination.  Or as George Carlin used to say "symbols are for the symbol-minded."

I like what I've seen of Stewart Rhodes for the most part, however he does engage in a lot of (what most folks would consider fringe) rhetoric about intentional Government plans to collapse the dollar, the economy, putting normal Americans into FEMA camps, etc.  Yet, we at Appleseed have a weekly podcast where "prepping" is front and center.

The bottom line is that Appleseeders are getting mixed messages as to what we are about.

For reference, here is the citizenship oath (from the US gov. site).  Bolding is mine.  If this is required of naturalized citizens, why would natural born citizens be uncomfortable reciting the bolded portion vs. the pledge of allegiance?:

"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the armed forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."

Respectfully,

Bluesteel

[BeSwift]

More students on the line = good.. If someone wants to make the jump that we're one in the same group, in the media or otherwise, then so be it.. we're NOT. BeSwift

[V]

Just to be clear as the SB of one of the shoots mentioned in the article.

Back in 2009 for the Nationwide April 19th shoot we were encouraged by "National" to include a low-key Oath keepers "ceremony" as Fred and  Rhodes worked on a joint presentation on the Green in Lexington on the same day. Like many other "joint promotional" efforts this one came and went with no appreciable effect.

I don't regret nor disparage the low-key, optional, "platform" that was effected at that time at National's behest.

I don't wish to see people inadvertently disparaged out of context by what remains of the diaspora of National from that time, on a current board where current participants cannot see the discussions and safeguards arranged back then. For those going around this loop for the first time there is no need for "what were they thinking" style comments.

[techres]

V, if there were safeguards back then, I saw nothing of them at the time, nor in PM's today looking for information.  I am glad to hear they were put into place and would be curious to know more but don't need to if this was a one off event and not something continuing down the road.

If this is not something we will see moving forward then it is not a problem to be solved.
If it was something worked out but not explained to people, then it is the usual problem when we don't share information or explanation.

In any case, I am glad to hear it was intentional, planned and approved.  You are the first person to confirm that.

Thanks.

[Ramblin' Wreck]

I took the Oath in 1968 and I've been a member of OathKeepers since before I became involved with Appleseed. I understand the need to maintain our identity but I see no conflict in the ultimate desire of both organizations to see the Constitution upheld and the country restored to the Republic we were intended to have. As someone said below, OK is just planning on what to do if the AS mission is not successful. I'm making those plans as well as are a LOT of my fellow instructors.

May Liberty increase,

Ramblinwreck

I took the Oath in 1975, and have been a member of OathKeepers since before I attended my first 'seed.  I met Stewart and spoke after him at a 2nd Amendment Rally at the Kentucky state Capitol a couple years ago.  I had the Kentucky OK coordinator on my line at Knob Creek.  We get along just fine.  OathKeepers are welcome on my line anytime, anywhere.

However, if they wanted to do an Oath ceremony at one of my shoots I would have to politely decline, for the reasons techres mentioned.  It is wise advice. 

UL

[slim]

So the real question is,

Why aren't our lines filled yet?

Seems we have some more "low hanging fruit" we can go pick and fill bushel baskets with. Why aren't we doing it? We can sit around all day and debate what type of ceremonies we're going to have and which pledge or oath to take but it seems to me we should just shut up and color. Do our events how we've always done them except we add a phone call or email to the local OK honcho. "Say, bro, you got some dudes that need some 'seedin?"

The beauty of this is we don't have to debate it. We don't have to even talk about it. We just invite them - like everyone else in America - out to our events and press on with business as usual.

[Unbridled Liberty]

So the real question is,

Why aren't our lines filled yet?

Seems we have some more "low hanging fruit" we can go pick and fill bushel baskets with. Why aren't we doing it? We can sit around all day and debate what type of ceremonies we're going to have and which pledge or oath to take but it seems to me we should just shut up and color. Do our events how we've always done them except we add a phone call or email to the local OK honcho. "Say, bro, you got some dudes that need some 'seedin?"

The beauty of this is we don't have to debate it. We don't have to even talk about it. We just invite them - like everyone else in America - out to our events and press on with business as usual.

Count on Slim to zero in on the target.  Thanks.  I just messaged the KY OK coordinator to see about getting it done.

UL

[Mudcat]

Slim has simplified it to what really concerns us. I am also joining and contacting the local honcho to try and get some shooters. If we look at our numbers right now we need to draw from where we can. These people are for the most part liberty minded and can be low hanging fruit if we treat them with respect and welcome them.

[DrRichP]

I have sent an e-mail to the WI Oath Keepers coordinator and invited he and his membership to attend an Appleseed.

Some state chapters have meetings on their calendars, and that may represent an opportunity to deliver a Libertyseed as well.

[bob 210]

I am confirming the same. Time could be better spent than chasing ghosts of Appleseed past, particularly events sanctioned and promoted. Let's put this one to rest shall we?

V, if there were safeguards back then, I saw nothing of them at the time, nor in PM's today looking for information.  I am glad to hear they were put into place and would be curious to know more but don't need to if this was a one off event and not something continuing down the road.

If this is not something we will see moving forward then it is not a problem to be solved.
If it was something worked out but not explained to people, then it is the usual problem when we don't share information or explanation.

In any case, I am glad to hear it was intentional, planned and approved.  You are the first person to confirm that.

Thanks.