Demo/practice triggers & barrel band sling adapters

[Nero]

These are products created on a 3D printer to help with problems encountered on the Appleseed lines and other training & shooting situations.  Products currently available for the Ruger 10/22, M14/M1A, and Marlin 60:


10/22 Barrel Band Sling Adapter

For owners of Ruger 10/22 carbines or take-down models that have a barrel band, this adapter provides a forward 1.25" sling mount without drilling into the stock.  It slides onto the fore stock ahead of the barrel band, or can be used to replace the barrel band (which is purely for show).  Instructors may also find these a useful alternative to the 'zip tie trick' for improvising sling attachments, as the connection is firmer and much easier to adjust.

Made of ABS plastic in natural color, won't mar the stock or barrel.  Friction fit, no hardware required.  Slides on and off easily, can be used as a quick disconnect.  This will fit over a Tech-sight front sight.

Price is $15 apiece, shipping included.  Available on eBay or see below regarding other payment options. (link updated 11NOV19)





Demo Trigger for 10/22 Stock

Want a trigger for your demo or practice stock that actually moves and clicks when it breaks & resets?  Now you can have one, created on an oh-so-trendy 3D printer!

It looks like this:



It sounds like this:

Youtube link

Yup, that's one of those 'cricket' clickers as made famous during the D-Day invasions.  Used with a laser pointer, this is perfect for demo'ing six steps and rifleman's cadence, and could also be used as a 'dry practice' trainer where a real firearm is not practical.

This is a friction fit into any stock that will take a 10/22 action.  Made of natural colored ABS plastic, not likely to be mistaken for the real thing.

Be the envy of your local instructor corps!   

I'm asking for $35.95 each, shipping included.  Available on eBay or see below regarding other payment options. (link updated 11NOV19)


Demo Trigger for M14 Stocks

I've had a number of requests to adapt the design of my 10/22 demo trigger to M14 stocks, since so many instructors have them, and I've finally got it ready.

Here's what it looks like:





It sounds like this:

YouTube link.  (That's the 10/22 version, but it sounds the same).

This uses one of those 'cricket' clickers as made famous on D-Day, which snaps on both the trigger break and reset.  Just the thing for demo'ing six steps and rifleman's cadence, and could also be used as a 'dry practice' trainer where a real firearm is not practical.

This is a friction fit into any stock that will take an M14 or M1A.  Due to variability in stocks you might have to shim a little with duct tape, or file very lightly on the mounting tabs.  Thanks for Fred, V, and FreedomV for testing prototypes with their M14 stocks.  (This can be combined with the Franken-14 laser trainer, with a little filing on the laser trainer mount.)

I'm asking for $40 each, shipping included.  These are built to order.  CLICK HERE to send me a private message.


Marlin 60 Barrel Band Sling Adapter

For the 'tuber' in your life or on your firing line!

Many tube-fed rifles lack sling studs.  The 'zip tie trick' and other temporary mounts, as well as installing a permanent stud, can be problematic due to interference with the magazine.

The Marlin 60 and its variants are the most common semi-auto tube-fed rifle on the Appleseed firing lines, so here's a slide-on adapter for the M60 that can take an M1 type 'GI' sling or any other up to 1 1/4" wide.  This will fit over the stock sights on either a long- or short-tube Marlin 60.  It's snug over the barrel/magazine attachment band and then slides back onto the Marlin's tapered barrel to meet the stock fore-end.

This has been tried with the name-brand Marlin 60 as well as the 'Glenfield' version.  It has not been tried with the various private-label versions, though I'd expect it to work.  (See wiki on the Marlin 60.)

Asking price is $15.45 apiece, shipping included. Available on eBay or see below regarding other payment options. (link updated 11NOV19)

[Prescott]

Thanks Nero!

I was about to send you a PM and ask if you would sell me a few of the barrel bands.  After seeing them in action, they are great way to get a sling on a rifle without a front sling stud.   Please PM your address and I will get a check off to you.

Great idea!

[9mm4545]

Does the barrel band sling attachment block the view of standard Ruger iron sights? Cool idea and no doubt much quicker than cobbing together a wire tie attachment.

[Nero]

Does the barrel band sling attachment block the view of standard Ruger iron sights? Cool idea and no doubt much quicker than cobbing together a wire tie attachment.

No, it doesn't block it the standard front sight.  The profile above the barrel is exactly the same as the factory barrel band, except for a little extra clearance around the barrel itself, so it's not actually putting pressure there, only on the stock.  (I hope it's clear this only works with a stock that has the cut/molding for a barrel band.)

[scuzzy]

Man - if you could setup a 10/22 trigger that resets for dry fire that would be cool. Put a spring or something in the mechanism.

[dayid]

Received mine in the mail today. I ordered 1 for a Model 60 (since that's my preferred rifle and I've got a few of them), and 2 for 10/22s just because they seem to be the most likely to arrive on the line w/o a good way to affix a proper sling.

Can't speak for the 10/22 yet (imagine I will be able to soon), but the Model 60 version fits sublimely. It goes over the crown just fine because of the taper in the barrel, and nicely fits both my newer (shorter-barreled, shorter-magazine-tube) Model 60, as well as my older (longer-barreled, longer-magazine-tube) Model 60. Due to the cutaway nature no problem with scope, tech-sights, nor factory sights.

There is a slight gap in the fitment to the magazine, which is perfect since it is not as rugged to withstand being torqued against.

It passes the living-room-dry-fire practice perfectly!

[azmule]

Nero, do you have a FDM printer or are you sending these out?  I've got a lightweight portable target stand concept that uses 2 small plastic junction blocks to hold 1x2 furring strips as shown in the jpgs below.  The junction blocks are ~3.5" cubed and use 7.8 cubic inches of material each.  Is this too much material volume to be cost-effective for this part?

[Nero]

Nero, do you have a FDM printer or are you sending these out?  I've got a lightweight portable target stand concept that uses 2 small plastic junction blocks to hold 1x2 furring strips as shown in the jpgs below.  The junction blocks are ~3.5" cubed and use 7.8 cubic inches of material each.  Is this too much material volume to be cost-effective for this part?

I'm using a printer, at least unless and until there's enough demand to warrant the cost of a mold.

What you're showing there is problematic using a 3D plastic printer:

7.8 cubic inches is about 125 cc - that's nearly 10x the biggest job that I run regularly, and those jobs take about 3.5 hours.  I'm sure a fancier printer would go faster, but it would still take quite a while...

Doing unsupported bridging structures is a problem with filament printers, and the junction block is such that you will have them no matter which way you turn it.

It's also likely to take shearing forces, given what you are building, which can be problematic with a structure that's built up in layers, if the adhesion is anything less than perfect.

FWIW, I've got a couple very similar portable target frames, also built out of 1x2s.  I handled that junction using some angle steel plus small carriage bolts and wingnuts.  Based on a design I found on the net (link long since lost) and modified to use what I could find cheap at Home Depot.

[azmule]

That's kind of what I was afraid of - I've seen some fused deposition printed ABS parts that are nearly as strong as injection molded through the laminations, but 7.8CI of ABS plus the support material and machine time at a professional model shop is way too expensive for something that's going downrange.  I've seen various bolt-together target stands, but I like the idea of a simple junction that uses unmodified 1x2 strips, infinitely adjustable to any target width.  Plan B is to come up with a sheet metal development that accomplishes the same thing.

[grunt soldier]

I got to play with one of these the other day.  very cool concept.  One question though.  Is there a way to make the trigger a bit heavier in pull weight?  I think these might be a very invaluable tool.

[Nero]

I got to play with one of these the other day.  very cool concept.  One question though.  Is there a way to make the trigger a bit heavier in pull weight?  I think these might be a very invaluable tool.

Should I also make it real gritty so you can get the true Ruger NIB experience?    

Seriously, it'd be hard to make a large change in the apparent pull - the trigger isn't working against the usual sear and spring, but pushes directly on the steel strip spring in the clicker.  So the pull is just a matter of lever action around the trigger pivot, and there not a lot of flexibility in where that goes.

I don't know which version of this you saw, but the M14 version pulls harder than the 10/22 version.  I had to move the spring clicker part farther away from the trigger - the inletting for the M14 trigger group isn't wide enough to fit it.  That changed the lever dimensions enough to make a significant difference.

[dayid]

FWIW, I used the Marlin Model 60 version this past weekend - but on a Remington 597. It fit the barrel snugly and worked well - although the two top edges of the opening did bend-out a little (about 1/16" towards the outside on each of the 4 corners) at the outer layer.

A shooter there familiar with 3rd printer recommended me just heating the pieces and clamping them back to maintain flatness again - he also mentioned perhaps doing (he had a fancier word for the cut...) but a slight-cut there so the corners aren't as sharp (and thus prone to bend-out/separation).

[Nero]

FWIW, I used the Marlin Model 60 version this past weekend - but on a Remington 597. It fit the barrel snugly and worked well - although the two top edges of the opening did bend-out a little (about 1/16" towards the outside on each of the 4 corners) at the outer layer.

A shooter there familiar with 3rd printer recommended me just heating the pieces and clamping them back to maintain flatness again - he also mentioned perhaps doing (he had a fancier word for the cut...) but a slight-cut there so the corners aren't as sharp (and thus prone to bend-out/separation).

It shouldn't bend if used on the M60 itself, since I designed it to spread the sling stress over the adapter as it hits the barrel and fore end.  If you put it on a barrel/stock with a different contour, it will probably work, but since the stress will probably hit at just a few point, it may bend - as you found out. 

He's probably right that heating it up would allow you to bend it back.  It's made of ABS plastic, which melts in the 180+ degree C range.  Don't warm it up that far!  (The 'cut' he's probably talking about is a 'fillet' - it does have a bit of one, but again, it's specifically designed to match the M60 barrel contour so I didn't take it any further.)

[SPQR]

he saw mine, which is the 10-22 model.  Not only have I built a new demo rifle around it, I have built an entirely new NPOA demonstration and muscling demonstration around it.  Its a mind blower.


I think a lot of people are looking at increasing trigger pull to manufacture a dry firing platform from this.  I suppose it can be done effectively.  You could probably bubba a rubber band in there somehow to stiffen it.  I, however, think it is just about perfect the way it is.  One click to pew, one click to reset.  It aint rockit surgery.

[Nero]

he saw mine, which is the 10-22 model.  Not only have I built a new demo rifle around it, I have built an entirely new NPOA demonstration and muscling demonstration around it.  Its a mind blower.

Hmmmm, write it up??   Video?  Inquiring minds want to know... 

I think a lot of people are looking at increasing trigger pull to manufacture a dry firing platform from this.  I suppose it can be done effectively.  You could probably bubba a rubber band in there somehow to stiffen it.  I, however, think it is just about perfect the way it is.  One click to pew, one click to reset.  It aint rockit surgery.

Strangely enough, I've been playing around with a similar idea as well...   

In my case I got the guts from a laser pointer:
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9906
and I've got that mounted on top of one of my clicky triggers, using another 3D printed part, and added a metal plunger so when the clicker 'breaks' it pushes the on switch on the laser module.  So 'pew' = laser on; 'reset' = laser off.  This weekend will be its first trial at a real 'seed; I can hold the trigger back to keep the laser on for demo'ing NPOA as usual, but then use the on/off to show follow-through.

I'll get a picture of that rig and post it.  Not sure I'm gonna sell them, though - it's a real PITA to build - some blind riveting + filing the plunger to sub-mm tolerance, and about $20 of additional BOM cost.

I also tried, less successfully, to rig up a front and rear sight system for the laser trigger.  The laser bit has a rear peep built right into it, and I took my 10/22 barrel band design and modified it to instead have an adjustable post on the top.  Trouble is, real front and rear sights have this rigid thing called a 'barrel' connecting them.  In this case, both the trigger assembly and the front sight are friction fits with no direct connection, and there's some wiggle.  It's not very noticeable when you're doing an NPOA demo at point-blank range, but I got about 6" of wiggle at 50 feet depending on how I handled the trigger, which is not very satisfactory.  I'd probably need to come up with a substitute rigid connection between the front & rear (copper tubing??) to make it work reasonably.

[grunt soldier]

Oh  and that laser set up sound pretty awesome.  would love to check that also.  your doing some pretty cool things with the printer sir.  /salute to your creativity. 

[Nero]

Here's a couple pics of my hacked-together laser version:





The laser holder is a separate piece that's both glued and friction welded onto the trigger assembly.  The hole on the top (visible in 2nd shot) is so I can drop in the plunger before fitting the laser into the housing.  I got lucky and found a 2xAA battery holder that's a perfect friction fit into the forward part of the 10/22 inletting, above where the mag well is normally located.

I've been thinking about how to increase the trigger weight.  It'd be pretty hard to do it by changing the geometry, given the other constraints on that.  Might work to put a captive compression coil spring in behind the trigger.  It might even be possible to make it adjustable.  It'd require some model changes - a nub or detent on the trigger, probably beefing up the trigger guard to take the pressure, and putting in a hole for a spring and adjuster.  Hmmm.  Maybe the next time I'm pawing through my collection of spare hardware...

[grunt soldier]

If it's that much work I wouldn't worry about it. It's a very cool tool just the way it is. I don't know much about the printers so I just figured I would ask.

[grunt soldier]

And that laser set up is awesome!!!  Very cool sir. That would be awesome for dry fire practice.

[Nero]

I tried out the 'laser trigger' as an instructional tool this past weekend, and it was a mixed bag.  It functioned fine for doing NPOA demo - just holding back the trigger to keep the laser on - but you could do that with the usual laser pointer / bore sighter mounted in the stock. 

Where it was supposed to shine was in demo'ing cadence - since the students would be able to hear and see the trigger break, see the hold back for follow-through (laser stays on), and then reset as the inhale begins (click and laser off).  But what happened is that some of the shooters didn't figure out the laser was linked to the trigger, so we had to stop and explain that.  Probably a bad thing, since you want them to be absorbing the lesson, not figuring out your props.   

OTOH, we've found the 'clicky trigger' itself useful not only for demo, but putting into the hands of shooters who don't quite get the hold-back/reset thing, since it eliminates all the complexity and variables of a either live firing or running a bolt by hand. 

That suggests that the 'make this better for dry practice' suggestions are onto something, so I'm going to spend more time on that, rather than the laser version (which is a PITA to build anyway).

[grunt soldier]

at the MCFG shoot with spqr and YHJ we used your trigger for just that very lesson.  the students understood it very well.  I think so much because with it they weren't forced to focus on the other aspects of shooting.  just seeing and feeling it work.  we had very good feedback on it at that shoot.  I think it's a awesome tool.

[Nero]

So here's a question for those interested in using this for dry fire practice:  What range of trigger weight would you want?  Obviously it's never going to get lighter than it is with just the clicker's spring in play, but I could make it adjustable to some extent if I add an additional spring behind the trigger with a set screw for adjustment.  That will change the trigger feel somewhat, but it should still 'break' fairly cleanly since that's the result of the clicker spring buckling.  I'd have to experiment with spring dimensions and then find a reliable source of supply to do this.  May add $5 - $10 to the price, depending.

Second question:  Should I try to fake a sighting system, or just assume a laser will be used for indication?  It wouldn't be hard to fake up a rear aperture and a front post (attached to a barrel band).  I can even make them roughly adjustable - though doing 'clicks' on the adjusters is probably beyond my ability.  As with my experiment up-thread, if you wanted sight alignment to be consistent and repeatable, you'd probably end up having to glue the clicky trigger into the demo stock.  Also more complexity and cost for adding in the sighting capability, not sure what that would be without doing it.

None of this will happen fast, but if I've got some design parameters in mind, I can start tinkering in that direction.

[grunt soldier]

the regular trigger pull was pretty light but not bad.  if it can get around 4lbs or so that would be enough for me.  I think the stock rugers come 5-7 lbs. 

Did you make the sights for spqr?  He had some on his rifle I believe on a dow rod.  could be a very cool demo rifle with sights and triggers on it. 

[Nero]

the regular trigger pull was pretty light but not bad.  if it can get around 4lbs or so that would be enough for me.  I think the stock rugers come 5-7 lbs. 

I see what I can do, in my copious free time.     I did find a site that gives the dimensions, weight and travel distance on all sorts of compression springs, so I can see if I come up with something that would work in the dimension available.

Did you make the sights for spqr?  He had some on his rifle I believe on a dow rod.  could be a very cool demo rifle with sights and triggers on it.

Nope, those must be his own work.  I'd like to see 'em...

[Nero]

the regular trigger pull was pretty light but not bad.  if it can get around 4lbs or so that would be enough for me.  I think the stock rugers come 5-7 lbs. 

I used a trigger pull gauge on three of the 10/22 practice triggers that I have in stock.  I got a range of 1 lb 7 oz to 1 lb to 10oz for the pull, which is not bad consistency when you consider the spring inside is made for a kid's toy.   

So looks like I need to be able to add about 3 - 4 pounds to that with a compression spring to make it more realistic for dry practice.  I will poke around the engineering parts sites to see what's available that would fit into the available dimensions.  I would probably also change the internal geometry a bit.  Right now the trigger is positioned so that it starts loading onto the strip spring in the clicker right away.  If I left some preliminary take-up, then you'd get some resistance from the compression spring, and then a noticeably heavier pull as it encountered the strip spring, sort of a two-stage effect.

[Nero]

I got a bit of time for 'R&D' on these ideas.  Here's what I came up with:



Looks the same as the usual clicky demo trigger, but notice that backing spring in behind the trigger itself:



If you look close, you can see a retaining pin sunk into the trigger to keep the spring in place.  There are two adjustments:



Each of those holes conceals a set screw, adjustable with a 1/16" hex (Allen) wrench. 

The upper one adjusts the amount of take-up in the trigger.  The bottom one adjusts the weight, by changing the point at which the coiled spring begins loading.  All the way out, you get about 1.5 lbs (no loading at all), all the way in you get about 5 lbs. 

The trigger feel is not the most awesomest thing out there.  While the clicker 'break' is still distinct, there's some stacking when you turn up the trigger weight, since you are loading straight into a coil spring for the added weight.  You can get a bit of a two-stage effect by leaving some take-up room before the spring starts loading.

This adds some parts to the bill of materials and some build time, so I'll have to add some $$ for this option.  I'm thinking +$10, so a total of $45 for a 10/22 'dry fire version'.  The only change I have to make to the 3D printed parts is putting in three holes, which won't hurt anything if not used.  So I'll just start making that my standard build, and only install the 'dry fire' fittings if requested.

[TimOren]

I'm bumping this since I'm back in the program, under my real name.
See <<<<.

I can't edit the original post, since different account, but here's an update on status of the various projects mentioned, and I'll get a new thread going with full updates soon.

Standard products listed on eBay (links in OP are dead, but can find via search) Updated 11Nov2019, thank you, Rusty!:

10/22 barrel band sling adapter in black  http://www.ebay.com/itm/142976223294
Marlin 60 sling adapter in black  http://www.ebay.com/itm/143338730809
10/22 'clicky' demo trigger in natural (off white)   http://www.ebay.com/itm/143357126291

I'll give 10% off the eBay price to bona fide AS instructors ONLY, if you contact me via PM, and send payment via Paypal Friends& Family (we are both, right?)

Custom builds, contact me via PM:
M1A/M14 'clicky' demo trigger in natural (off white)  [eBay threw this off their site, since it's a 'part for an assault rifle'    ]
10/22 'clicky' trigger with adjustable takeup and weight
Any of the above triggers in black
Red Coat cookie cutters!  Set of three for stages 2, 3, 4 sized D silhouette cookies.

My current project is developing a variant of the old Garand M2 aiming device that will fit a 10/22 model Tech-sight - for all those instructors who have wanted to see what the shooter is seeing...

[Mrs. Smith]

Wow. No, really. Freakin wow.

As if I weren't spending enough money. 

You'll be hearing from me

[GTEngineer]

For anyone sitting on the fence about this, I have bought something like 8 sling adapters from Tim to loan out for folks and they work great without messing up anyone's stock rifle.  I also bought the demo trigger to drop into an old wood 10/22 stock that I use for demo purposes and this makes teaching demo so much easier, especially the trigger drill portion.  I highly recommend asking Santa for 1 of each.

I'm bumping this since I'm back in the program, under my real name.
See <<<<.

I can't edit the original post, since different account, but here's an update on status of the various projects mentioned, and I'll get a new thread going with full updates soon.

Standard products listed on eBay (links in OP are dead, but can find via search):

10/22 barrel band sling adapter in black
Marlin 60 sling adapter in black
10/22 'clicky' demo trigger in natural (off white)
I'll give 10% off the eBay price to bona fide AS instructors ONLY, if you contact me via PM, and send payment via Paypal Friends& Family (we are both, right?)

Custom builds, contact me via PM:
M1A/M14 'clicky' demo trigger in natural (off white)  [eBay threw this off their site, since it's a 'part for an assault rifle'    ]
10/22 'clicky' trigger with adjustable takeup and weight
Any of the above triggers in black
Red Coat cookie cutters!  Set of three for stages 2, 3, 4 sized D silhouette cookies.

My current project is developing a variant of the old Garand M2 aiming device that will fit a 10/22 model Tech-sight - for all those instructors who have wanted to see what the shooter is seeing...

[HapHapablap]

My current project is developing a variant of the old Garand M2 aiming device that will fit a 10/22 model Tech-sight - for all those instructors who have wanted to see what the shooter is seeing...

I will buy this immediately if you get it working. I picked up one of the triggers from you a few months ago as well.