Known distance Appleseed?

[FLORIDANATIVE]

What's the deal with the KD appleseeds that I have been reading about? I am very interested in shooting one of these events. Can someone enlighten me please.

[ToneDef]

The short and simple version is that a KD Appleseed is for instructors and IIT's where the AQT is shot at actual distances. The Sunday discussion on come-ups and gauging wind comes into play. If you are looking to do the same thing without the commitment of being an instructor, check out the events sponsored by the CMP.

[Sly223]

You have shot Rifleman multiple times and are eligable for a KD but we do not have any sched. in Fl yet We will try to squeeze one in before the end of the yr or winter! Right now the focus is on GA. NC,SC,VA,AL if you don't mind the drive. Let me know which ones might interest you, and I'll see if I or someone we know is going.Be sure to come to Myakka Oct12-13 and ring the steel at 100yrds!
We'll take about a hat!

[FLORIDANATIVE]

I'll be there the 13th for sure. Already registered. All I need to do is decide what to bring... Maybe bolt action, or an ar15.

[TomM1Thumb]

No Brainer, Take Both!

[FLORIDANATIVE]

That's a good idea. I have been shooting rifleman one rifle at a time. I really want to try a bolt action. It seems like a good challenge.

[Sly223]

Also you could shoot lefty!

[SPQR]

The short and simple version is that a KD Appleseed is for instructors and IIT's where the AQT is shot at actual distances. The Sunday discussion on come-ups and gauging wind comes into play. If you are looking to do the same thing without the commitment of being an instructor, check out the events sponsored by the CMP.

Some places conduct regular old Appleseeds at full distance.  Anyone can attend.

[FLORIDANATIVE]

Well... Lets put one together!  Let's gauge interest. How many ppl are needed to run a KD?

How do we go about that?

[jmdavis]

At $.45 cents per round for the least expensive .223 available right now. The cost to shoot a full 2 day Appleseed at Full Distance is at least $150 for ammunition. Then you have to find a suitable location (400 yards)  and get exclusive use for 2 days. Even then,  it is still a good idea to run at least a few hours of the event at 25m to assure that shooters have a good zero and the ability to shoot groups. Then you need to spend time getting zeros at distance. Some value would come from spending a couple of hours on ballistics, windage, and target identification. Finally you can begin shooting KD AQT's.

There are very good reasons for shooting at 25m. These include the ability to shoot more and spend less time walking to check targets, the ability to use inexpensive rimfire ammunition (which is also possible out to 300 yards), the ability to check targets with simple binos to make adjustments, and a larger group of instructors trained to teach at that range.

I am all for shooting KD both for training and practice. But, it is much more valuable when combined with focused practice and training at 25m. Mastering 25m shooting is extremely valuable for KD. Concentrated practice at 25m is extremely valuable for making rapid improvement in marksmanship as well. The truth is that if you can't shoot well  at 25m, you will be extremely unlikely to shoot well at 400 yards.

Finally, after running and shooting a number of known distances courses, silhouette, highpower and midrange matches (600 yards), I have some observations. In general shooters do well at 100 and 200 yards. Where things start to break down for even good shooters is at 300 and 400. With the relative flatness of .223 and .30 platform ballistics, I believe that the issues at 300 and greater distances are largely related to a lack of good zero, mental preparedness and vision. With iron sights, 300 is when you REALLY have to focus on the front sight. That means focusing on the top edge of the front sight. That top edge should be clear regardless of what the target looks like once you have your npoa. This is also the point that issue like respiratory pause may come up. You have to have good position, npoa and come to respiratory pause if you wish to shoot well at 300 and 400. You need to mentally make yourself follow the steps if they are not already ingrained in your subconcious. If you have vision issues, it is harder, but not impossible. In all but the most extreme cases, you can correct your vision via glasses and optics and be able to shoot well.

[malabar]

I have the only certified 600-yard range in the state.  Give me the word and we'll make it happen.

We're currently talking about a KD shoot for April 19.

tk

[draken]

We're currently talking about a KD shoot for April 19.

KD on 4/19 and Palm Bay? I'm INNNNNN   

[PHenry]

The "KDC", or known distance clinic, is something we pioneered here in FL. It started as a fun day for instructors - a great idea ItsanSKS had as a reward for hard working instructors who rarely got any trigger time of their own. He was the FL state coordinator at the time and wanted to offer a reward and improve cadre morale.

I liked his idea, but knew it needed to be more - Fred doesn't believe in fun. 

The original weekend event format always included KD on Sunday for 6MOA or better shooters, if the range allowed it. The first events were at Ramseur, so this was not a problem. But, as the instructor cadre expanded and venues were added - KD began to suffer. Fred and the MIs got wind of it and it was decreed that any venue having 100 yards or greater would have KD on Sunday.

The problem was that we were adding new shoot bosses that had not shot past 25M, or maybe 100 yards - a serious problem that exists to this day. ItsanSKS and I figured the KDC could solve this issue then and we still feel the same now. In fact, we just spoke of it at length recently.

Appleseeds is NOT a 25M / 22Lr club. We seek to create Rifleman Instructors. A Rifleman must be able to shoot accurately out to 500 yards with a rack grade rifle and ball ammo. No really. A 22 runs out of gas at about 200 yards, and as such, is not the proper tool for a Rifleman. It is an excellent teaching aid, but is best considered a stepping stone to a center fire rifle - preferably a .30 cal.

The KDC as ItsanSKS and I designed it was taken almost directly from MI Junior Birdman's original RBC COF, done on day four of a RBC. I added and tweaked it a bit, to create a two-day course that starts with a 4 hour lecture and hand outs - all on advanced marksmanship.

I prefer personally to offer this to the public only at RBCs where I have more time to get to know the people I am teaching. However, the program is now offering similar events to the public. We are blessed with several instructors here in FL that are well experienced out to 500 yards and beyond - enough so to be able to instruct others. For me, I will stick to the original format and teach advanced marksmanship only to instructors and people I know well.

I do agree with starting at 25M, but only to verify zero. Showing up to a KD event without a properly zeroed rifle and the ability to shoot within 4MOA is a waste of ammo and time. Attend enough regular events until u git all shots within the 4MOA squares before attempting to shoot KD. There is no magic here - what works at 25M, works at 400 yards - honest.

The AQT works. Appleseeds did not invent it - we simply adopted it and we did so because it is exceedingly effective and very efficient.

I will say this - hitting the target at great distance is a thrill u will never forget and it is not only worth the effort it takes to learn how - it is the duty of any human who expects to remain free.

[FLORIDANATIVE]

Consider this the "word". I am in. I can guarantee a minimum of 3 people. How about a sooner date though? I have only this year got into this style of shooting (I am a carbine guy.) and I enjoy it very much. I have shot score at every Appleseed I have been to and now I want to push myself to shoot at actual distance. I will be at the next two events in Myakka and am thinking about getting involved in becoming an instructor. Sly223 invited me to the RBC in August but I a prior engagement that week. I would like to attend one though.

[Sly223]

O.K. But, Brian,Chris and Pete do not count as you bringing them, so how many you bringing now!
I will be sure to bring an orange hat! a PC0 and a list of expectations, to the next event! PM me and I will forward PC to you!

[smoakingun]

Ok. My two cents. If you are not experienced at distance, a 2 day clinic may not be for you.
The reason is time. You show up Saturday, head to the 25 meter line, set up, shoot sighters, make adjustments, shoot sighters, break down and head to the 100 yard line, set up, sighters, adjustments, sighters, maybe adjust and sighters again, move the line to 200, same process...you get the point. It makes for a long day with little or no time to to actually shoot an AQT. Shooters new to distance shooting will typically prolong this process.
That leaves Sunday for maybe 3 AQTs depending on light.
A riflemans bootcamp is a better option. At an RBC 3 to for days at distance is more the norm at a much easier pace.

[PHenry]

Best way to run this is to spend Sat AM in classroom on advanced marksmanship. You need to know what to expect and how to deal with it.

Here's what I have found in shooters unaccustomed to shooting KD.

If u can shoot within 4MOA at 25M consistently, you are good to about 500 yards - vision dependent.

If u can shoot within 6MOA at 25M consistently, you are good to about 300 yards - vision dependent.

If u can shoot only within 8MOA at 25M consistently, you are only good to about 200 yards.

This is gleaned from experience and simple math. To shoot past 100 yards - u need to have a good grasp of the basics - position, NPOA and Six Steps.

Like Smoak said - RBC is excellent way to go.

[FLORIDANATIVE]

I am definitely not experienced at distance shooting this style. I have shot up to 500yds many a time predator hunting. This was usually using a bipod or fencepost or some other object as a rest. I definitely shoot 4moa consistently at 25M. I have had quite a bit of firearms training, but for whatever reason I am hooked on this style. I shot a rifleman score on my first AQT ever with a .22, I came back the next month with my M1a. It took me a couple of AQTs to qualify due to the fact that the .308 has a slightly larger kick than a .22 does. By the end of the day I had locked down an Infernoseed patch with a 220. I would really enjoy the opportunity to shoot a KD but the chances of me being able to get away for a week to go to another state are slim. Is there ever any RBCs in Florida?

[PHenry]

If u can make score with M1A - r good to go sir. The rest is just math. This ain't seeing how many rounds u can send thru the X ring - just 4MOA on relatively large targets. The cool part is learning bullet drop and effect of wind on your rifle with your ammo - that's priceless. Knowing in advance what it takes to make first round hits with nothing more than a sling. 

[malabar]

Am working with the folks at my range to come up with a date. Will advise....


tk