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My Appleseed Experience and Feedback

Started by Agrivere, May 21, 2013, 04:46:48 PM

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Agrivere

I was very well prepared when I arrived at my first Appleseed shoot in Waco, GA.  It was April 13th, a perfect weekend with beautiful weather, and I was looking forward to learning to shoot my new rifles.

You see, I had never owned a rifle until a few months before my Appleseed weekend, and until this year I hadn't fired a rifle of any kind in roughly 35 years.  The political climate prompted me to go ahead and purchase an AR-15 (a firearm I've always wanted to own), and the quest to learn how to shoot it effectively lead me to my Appleseed weekend.  It also lead me to purchase a Ruger 10/22 (set up as a classic Liberty Training Rifle) and a Magnum Research MLR22 for fun and for use as a training platform for centerfire rifles.

I am by nature fairly meticulous, and like I said I was very well prepared.  I had read just about every blog and review and "What to expect" type article I could find on the internet, reviewed old army training films on marksmanship fundamentals, and studied the various different types of slings that are available (I ended up bringing along a canvas GI sling, a nylon GI sling, a leather Turner style sling, and even a Tactical Intervention Quick Cuff sling (which was definitely the best, though quite expensive)).  I found YouTube videos which demonstrated how to shoot standing, sitting, kneeling, and prone, and spent quite a bit of time setting up and sighting in all three rifles at 25 yards.

As an aside, though the purpose of this article is mostly to provide some feedback for the Appleseed folks, if you're reading this and planning to attend an Appleseed, definitely take the time to be prepared.  You'll certainly get out of it what you put into it.  Test the ammo you plan to bring and the function of your rifle.  Take some time and zero your sights or your scope at 25 yards.  Make sure you use the same ammo to zero your sights as you'll use at the Appleseed - you'd be surprised how much the point of impact changes when you change ammo - at least I know I was.  Watch some YouTube videos on marksmanship and shooting positions and using a GI sling.  There's lots of information out there.  The more you know when you arrive, the more time the instructors can spend helping you refine your technique, and the less they have to spend figuring out why you're not even hitting paper or your rifle won't feed.

One of the first things you'll do at your Appleseed (after the safety briefing) is bring your rifles out and shoot a Redcoat target.  This is a simple target with red silhouette's representing simulated 100 yard, 200 yard, 300 yard, and 400 yard targets, along with a simulated 250 yard roof shingle.  You'll shoot 13 rounds, 3 at each of the 4 silhouettes and 1 at the shingle, from any position you like.  The purpose of this is to see how everyone is shooting before the instructors begin teaching the fundamentals of marksmanship.

In our group, I was the only person to shoot a clean target (i.e. I hit every target with every shot), which certainly indicated to me that my preparation paid off.  It also raised a concern which I'll go into in more detail later - if I can shoot a clean target without any instruction, how much am I really going to be able to learn here?  Well, I need not have been too concerned, as I still learned a lot, and there was still plenty of room for improvement in my shooting.

As it turned out, though, my concern was not entirely unfounded.  As we began learning the fundamentals of marksmanship, the vast majority of the feedback I got after each string was something along the lines of "Excellent", "Good job", or "Well done".  While it feels good to hear praise after you shoot, it doesn't help me in the slightest to improve my shooting.  Even though my skills were somewhat more advanced than many others when the day began, I felt like I had plenty of room for improvement, and just as much need for constructive feedback as anyone else there.

Fortunately one of the instructors in training eventually took a closer look at one of my targets, and succinctly pronounced "You're dragging wood."  Now I'm the kind of person who appreciates constructive feedback regardless of how brusquely it's communicated, and she gave me a great deal of excellent constructive feedback throughout the day.  That really made the biggest difference for me of the entire weekend.  The fact that someone took the time to give me some solid suggestions on how to improve my shooting, despite the fact that there were other shooters who might have needed it "more".

Which brings me to the point of all of this backstory so far.  It would be easy for me to just say "Great job!" or "Excellent weekend" but that's not really the whole story.  I truly did enjoy my weekend spent shooting, and I feel like I'm a much better shooter now than I was when I started.  If I were to give a summary letter grade for my Appleseed weekend, it would have to be a solid B+.

There is, however, still room for improvement, and that's the point of all of this - to be a little nitpicky and provide some genuine and hopefully constructive feedback on the program.  At least the one I attended.  So without further ado, here are some areas where I think improvements could be made.

Start on Time

I've run large volunteer organizations before, and starting on time can be quite challenging at times.  It is more than a little frustrating, though, to still be sitting around an hour or more after the posted starting time.  Things like "what will we do if we have more than XX shooters", and "what do we do with late arriving students" can all be discussed ahead of time and a plan put in place, not figured out on the fly when we realize we have too many shooters for one line.

With any event like this, the fundamental key to starting on time is to simply start on time.  Experienced Appleseed folks (or those who talked to previous attendees) will know that these events never start on time, and they will plan to arrive late so as not to waste as much time standing around.  This quickly perpetuates until an on-time start becomes impossible.  Simply communicate that events will start promptly, and have a plan to catch up those who arrive late.  Students and instructors will quickly figure out that events will start on time, and the late arrivals will rapidly decline.

Battle of Lexington and Concord

Based on the other reviews and blogs I'd read prior to attending my Appleseed, I expected this to be one of the highlights of the weekend.  Sadly, it was not.  It was mostly a barrage of names and places and times, and overall seemed like a mostly "high school" history lesson.  What makes history interesting isn't the names and places and dates and times, but what made those people tick.  Who were they?  What was their story?  What had them so angry or scared that they were willing to get out of bed at 3:00 in the morning and march many miles to confront the British? 

Think about what it would take for YOU to get out of bed at 3:00 in the morning, grab a rifle, and go engage in battle against trained soldiers.  When normal everyday people are willing to put their lives on the line, they are not doing it for abstract concepts like "taxation without representation".  They are doing it for real reasons that affect their everyday lives in significant ways.

That's the story I want to hear.  What we heard was little more than you can get from the Wikipedia page on the Battle of Lexington and Concord (which is much easier to follow than the disjointed history lesson we got).  I wanted to hear more.  I wanted to hear more about why the American's were successful that day.  Did they use any new or different tactics?  Were the British surprised by the resistance?  Were the milita better marksman?  Among other things, some sources suggest they were considerably more accurate with their shots than the British, which ties in nicely to the reasons we're all at the Appleseed in the first place.  I found a great article about this at http://www.americanrifleman.org/ArticlePage.aspx?id=2455&cid=5 titled "Marksmanship in 1775: Myth or Reality?". 

Based on the majority of the blogs out there, I may be in the minority on this one, but I think the "history lesson" portion of the Appleseed could be spectacular, and for me at least, it was not.

Rifle Fit

Considering the number of students who arrived at the Appleseed using Ruger 10/22's with Tech Sights (or scopes) and sling swivels, it's clear that everyone read the "What to Bring" articles carefully before they came.  Nowhere, however, is there any mention of rifle fitment (at least not that I ever ran across).  By the end of the weekend, the rifles were such a hodgepodge of duct tape, rubber bands, and foam padding it was almost comical.

All of this has to do with rifle fitment.  You simply cannot shoot your best with a rifle that doesn't fit properly, and almost none of the rifles we arrived with fit properly.  Combs were too low, stocks were too short, sling swivels were installed too far forward on the foregrip, etc.  Kudos to the instructors for having foam and duct tape to try to address those problems, but this problem is simply begging for an additional instruction phase during the class, and an additional item on the "What to Bring" list.

The fact of the matter is most folks come to Appleseed's with rimfire rifles, and as far as I know virtually all of them are generally considered "youth" rifles.  They simply don't fit grownups very well out of the box.  When you add in the variety of sights and scopes which affect how much comb drop is needed, and the location of the front sling swivel, it's not any surprise that virtually every rifle left the Appleseed festooned with duct tape and foam.  Instead of instructors trying to address these issues while we're shooting, I think adding an instruction segment on how a rifle should fit you would be well worth the trouble, and would likely save a lot of time in the long run.

Get Out More

This feedback is perhaps less directed at the actual class as it is to the overall organization, or at least my impressions of it.  Reading the Appleseed forums I see post after post encouraging people to spread the word about Appleseed, how to get more people involved, etc.  From where I sit, the solution is pretty simple.  You guys (and gals) need to get out more.

The Appleseed community seems to be pretty isolated from other shooting sports and disciplines.  There is almost an undercurrent of disdain for other types of "tactical" training, and very little interest in other shooting sports at all.  When I was chatting with various instructors and told them I usually shot USPSA, and was here to learn more about shooting rifles, without exception every one I spoke to asked me what USPSA was.  Considering there are more than 400 USPSA clubs in the US, more than 24,000 members in the USPSA, and I'd estimate at least that many more who shoot matches but aren't members, that's a pretty large number of shooters that Appleseed isn't even aware of.

When I wore my shirt and told folks at my USPSA club about Appleseed, most folks thought it sounded really cool, but hadn't ever heard of it.  From USPSA to IDPA to 3 Gun Nation, the list of shooting sports goes on and on.  I can't imagine many of their members wouldn't love a chance to learn to shoot better at an Appleseed.  Personally I'm shooting my pistol much better after using some of the things I learned at Appleseed.  Get out to some pistol matches, shotgun matches, cowboy action matches, etc.  Get the word out to people who shoot competitively, and I think you'll find a whole lot of new students.

Where to go Next

One of the biggest surprises to me when the weekend was over was that it just sort of...ended.  Thanks for coming!  Bye!  There was no mention of where to go from here.  Nothing about attending a Boot Camp if you want to continue to learn and improve your rifle skills.  Nothing about the home range in Ramseur.  Nothing about what to do if you'd like to become a volunteer or an instructor.  Not even anything about what to do if you didn't make Rifleman and want to try again (maybe that's obvious, but still). 

How about "If you enjoyed shooting here and want to do more, you might enjoy NRA Smallbore Rifle, or Steel Challenge matches at other local ranges."  There are tons of matches at local ranges every single month that Appleseed folks might enjoy shooting at.  I found events going on virtually every weekend without even looking very hard.  For example, at Cherokee Gun Club in Gainesville they just added a new .22 Semi Auto Class to their Extreme Rimfire Silhouette matches.  All you need is a semi-automatic rimfire rifle and a 3x9 scope.  You'll shoot tiny animal silhouettes from 75 meters to 189 meters.  Doesn't that sound like something an Appleseed shooter would enjoy doing?

Some Appleseed students would love to know about these events, and I'll bet some of the folks who attend those events would love to know more about Appleseed.  It's a win-win, but most of the folks I met at my Appleseed wouldn't know where to even start looking.

So here's a little Sales 101 tip.  If you want something from people, ask them.  Ask them to get involved.  Ask them to consider becoming volunteers or instructors.  Ask them to simply spread the word about Appleseed.  It's amazing what people will do if you simply ask them.

Well, that's about all the feedback I have for now.  I want to emphasize that I thoroughly enjoyed my Appleseed weekend, and I'm actually hoping to attend another one.  I want to do it again on an actual distance course with my centerfire rifle, and continue to refine my rifle skills.  If any of my feedback or criticism sounds overly harsh then I apologize, but remember if I didn't care, I wouldn't have bothered to write all of this up!

Safe shooting,

Agrivere
"The great body of our citizens shoot less as times goes on. We should encourage rifle practice among schoolboys, and indeed among all classes, as well as in the military services by every means in our power. Thus, and not otherwise, may we be able to assist in preserving peace in the world... The first step � in the direction of preparation to avert war if possible, and to be fit for war if it should come � is to teach men to shoot." -Theodore Roosevelt

LawDog

Thank you for taking the time to write such a thorough and comprehensive review.  Like our shooters, we only get better from "listening to our targets."  Our fellow citizens are our targets, and your feedback is very helpful.  As I prepare to run an event this weekend, you have given me a lot to think about.  Thank you.  I hope that you will come back to another event, shoot a Rifleman score (if you have not already), and talk to the Shoot Boss about what you can do to help the program.  And thanks for spreading the word already. 
LawDog

connibear

Agrivere, thanks for the feedback, thats part of what these forums are about, to get shooters feedback on what to improve, change, add to or whatever. I am from MO but i got my orange hat in Ga and worked with several of the instructors that were at waco. They are a great group of people and i'm sure they will appreciate your comments. I was not there so I will not comment for them. This comment is not just for the GA crew its for all of appleseed crew to do better including myself.  I agree with all your comments we need to strive to start on time and plan for late arrivals, the history part needs to told with all enthusiasm even though we do tell a very condensed story, for time sake. A good book to read is called Paul Reveres Ride. We do deal with alot of people who have troubles with their rifles. Usually most people who attend an appleseed if they are not military haven't shot a rifle in umpteen years or never shot before and just starting, so things do go slower when tending to that. Getting the word out is something we need to work on, yes their are several venues to go and thats where the shooters need to be involved. The instructors do get out to other places as sometimes we don't always know of every shooting club out there, so that is a good suggestion, to find things like that. How to get involved should be discussed and talked about at the end of every appleseed.

I am glad you enjoyed your weekend, and do hope you will attend another one at the same time bringing more people with you. Again thankyou for your feedback we all need it. 

Ben
......"Where the spirit of the Lord is there is Liberty."    I Cor. 3:17b

A Nation that does not serve the Lord Jesus Christ cannot and does not have Liberty.

Unbridled Liberty

Agrivere,

Excellent review.  Thanks for taking the time to write it.  You have provided a great service to our instructors, not just in Georgia, but across the country.  And I can see an instructor lurking just below the surface of your writing.  You have much to contribute.  Please join us.  Thank you again.

U:L
For Liberty, each Freeman Strives
As its a Gift of God
And for it willing yield their Lives
And Seal it with their Blood

Thrice happy they who thus resign
Into the peacefull Grave
Much better there, in Death Confin'd
Than a Surviving Slave

This Motto may adorn their Tombs,
(Let tyrants come and view)
"We rather seek these silent Rooms
Than live as Slaves to You"

Lemuel Haynes, 1775

Roland

Thank you very much for your specific feedback. I can't even imagine how long that took to write out!

A lot of your feedback differs from region to region, and shoot to shoot.

And on that note let me be the first to say that you'd be welcome to attend a shoot in Idaho anytime!

I will wait to say anything else until the instructors from your event have the chance to comment and give their opinions.

Roland
The doorway to freedom is framed by the muskets that stood between a vision of of liberty and absolute anarchy at a place called Concord Bridge--Charlton Heston, 1997

"Be a man of principle. Fight for what you believe in. Keep your word. Live with integrity. Be brave. Believe in something bigger than yourself. Serve your country. Teach. Mentor. Give something back to society. Lead from the front. Conquer your fears. Be a good friend. Be humble and be self-confident. Appreciate your friends and family. Be a leader and not a follower. Be valorous on the field of battle. And take responsibility for your actions. Never forget those that were killed. And never let rest those that killed them." -- Major Douglas Zembiec

Sly223

That was the best review ever,
I am sorry the history didn't grab you, that time.
Thanks for coming prepared with knowledge and skill, we need all the help we can get.
Sounds like traveling for you is not too much of a problem,cross pollinate to a different venue,no two are the same.
Even if you do go back to the same one.
I think you would make a great Shoot boss.That is a journey in and of itself.
I think you would highly benefit from a PHenry run event in Hernando fl.
The short cumming you mentioned would never happen at one of his events.
The good news for me to take away from this is attention to detail.
You showed up ready to go, unfortunately you are of about 2% or less.
Please join our efforts and help right what you found wrong.
Again thanks for the honest comprehensive detailed review, most people will get lost on a rant!
Get back on the trail your patch awaits! :--- ..:..
"Smoakin'2" IBC11/12
"Plattka 3-12"(IBC)FL
What have you done for this program lately?
IBC-Tampa 8,'10
RBC-"Myakka12'10"RCR
C-1, Do-1, Teach many!
"Run all you want, you'll just die tired"!
There is U.S. & there is Dems!

AFTERMATH

"We intend to produce men who are able to light a fire for Liberty in men's minds, and make them the finest rifle marksmanship Instructors on the planet." - Son of Martha

"Tyrants rise and fall, but tyranny lasts forever." -Me

[What kind of megalomaniac quotes himself?]

9mm4545

Thank you for your thoughtful and comprehensive review. I too have struggled with some of the issues you bring up. As a shoot boss, I try hard to start on time and your feedback has given me some new ideas (and motivation) on how to accomplish a timely start. Late arriving stragglers still need to get caught up and, unless there is an excess of staffing on hand at an event, doing so is always a problem. I do intend to make it clear that the start time will be honored. The goal of Appleseed needs to be continuous improvement in everything we do and I have seen the program evolve in the short time I have been associated with the program. Problems of students not being prepared and having ill-fitting rifles is perhaps more prevalent now than ever as we are attracting shooters with little to no experience and who are frequently using borrowed rifles. I do plan on incorporating a segment early on to help with rifle fit issues. Time consuming yes, but likely to improve the marksmanship for those who will allow us to help them. The increase in Libertyseeds I believe will help with the history presentations. Instructor training focusing strictly on the history may help but much practice--and a real passion for the story--are what will make the history presentations move people. I do hope that you will consider joining us in making Appleseed the program that it can be, that it should be, that it needs to be. Again, thank you for your input.
The American Constitution is remarkable for its simplicity; but can only suffice a people habitually correct in their actions, and would be utterly inadequate to the wants of a different nation.  Change the domestic habits of the Americans, their religious devotion, and their high respect for morality, and it will not be necessary to change a single letter in the Constitution in order to vary the whole form of their government. - Francis Grund 1837

Engineer shooting

If I knew the world would perish tomorrow, I would still plant my apple tree.        Martin Luther

Roundhouse

Quote from: LawDog on May 21, 2013, 06:39:48 PM
Thank you for taking the time to write such a thorough and comprehensive review.  Like our shooters, we only get better from "listening to our targets."  Our fellow citizens are our targets, and your feedback is very helpful.  As I prepare to run an event this weekend, you have given me a lot to think about.  Thank you.  I hope that you will come back to another event, shoot a Rifleman score (if you have not already), and talk to the Shoot Boss about what you can do to help the program.  And thanks for spreading the word already. 
LawDog

Agrivere shot a 233 on his first AQT!  ^:)^

Agrivere is a co-worker of mine and I had the opportunity to watch him as he built his rifle before the event and then researched and drafted this post. He's got exceptional attention to detail and great insight.  I definitely agree the rifle fit trouble and history lesson confusion from my own Appleseed experiences, they are things I had to look into and get more clarification on as well.
Resident Newbie

FiremanBob

Agrivere, thank you for your thoughtful feedback. I have printed it out and will use it particularly to guide my instruction and telling of the Three Strikes at future events.
Author of "The 10/22 Companion: How to Operate, Troubleshoot, Maintain and Improve Your Ruger 10/22"

"Remember constantly that a nation cannot long remain strong when each man in it is individually weak, and that neither social forms nor political schemes have yet been found that can make a people energetic by composing it of pusillanimous and soft citizens." - de Tocqueville

Agrivere

Starting on time is both the easiest and hardest thing to fix, especially when dealing with volunteer organizations.

It all starts innocuously enough.  Some sort of unforeseen event leads to an unavoidable delay in the start of an event.  Maybe a car breaks down, or an alarm clock fails to wake someone up, and a big event starts late.  Instructors and students learn that if they work at it, they can overcome the late start and before you know it people in the "know" start planning their arrivals to be late.  After all, who wants to get there at 8:00 when you know nothing important really starts until 9:30?  Students who have been to Appleseed's before tell their friends not to bother to get there early, since it won't really start until 9:00 or 9:30 or whatever.

Next thing you know, every day of every event is starting an hour late, and now when some actual unavoidable delay occurs, start times are pushed back even further, because 9:30 (or whatever) has become the "real" start time.

It seems impossible to fix.  Students are still straggling in at 8:45, there's still a line at registration, the shoot line is too full, but we're not sure if we need to set up a second line, and if we do who will run the 2nd line?  Meanwhile nobody can find the staples, the target line still needs to be repaired, etc.  The challenges go on and on.

Despite the seeming impossibility, though, the solution is very simple, and very easy to execute.  Simply.  Start.  On.  Time.  Give people 5 or 10 minutes leeway, and at 8:40 on the nose the safety briefing begins.  Students will quickly stop milling around and get focused once the shoot boss starts talking.  Meanwhile, the rest of the staff works behind the scenes on all the other details that need to be attended to - registration, line repairs, whatever.  Students who arrived late will simply have to wait until they can be caught up and get their rifles on the line.

It will be chaotic at first.  It won't be smooth.  But people will learn fast.  They will quickly figure out that if they are late they miss out.  And they will stop being late.  The word will get out, and when people (students and instructors) know the event will start on time, they will find a way to be there on time.  It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

All you really have to do is make a commitment to start on time.  You'll be surprised that the rest will fall into place, and late starts will become a thing of the past.

Safe travels,

Agrivere
"The great body of our citizens shoot less as times goes on. We should encourage rifle practice among schoolboys, and indeed among all classes, as well as in the military services by every means in our power. Thus, and not otherwise, may we be able to assist in preserving peace in the world... The first step � in the direction of preparation to avert war if possible, and to be fit for war if it should come � is to teach men to shoot." -Theodore Roosevelt

mac66

One way to fix many of the issues you bring up Agrivere to to become involved yourself. We could use you in Appleseed.
Status quo, you know, is Latin for 'the mess we're in'.
Ronald Reagan

Even if you are on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there. Will Rogers

The King has degenerated into a tyrant and forfeits all rights to his subjects' obedience."  Patrick Henry, 1765

Motivation?...The best solution to morale problems is to kill all the unhappy people  Ghenghis Khan

PHenry

QuoteOne way to fix many of the issues you bring up Agrivere to to become involved yourself. We could use you in Appleseed.

+1  O0

Para ser Libre, un Hombre debe tener tres cosas. La Tierra, una Educacion, y un Fusil. Siempre, un Fusil!  Emiliano Zapata

Edheler

Agrivere,

Thanks for the feedback it is rare to have such an excellent writeup from someone outside of the program. A teachable attitude is even more important for us instructors and shoot bosses than our students. Because we have to continuously learn how to make our events better. There are a number of items in your list which I will be taking to heart at my next event.

I am curious, with relation to the history, was it done by red or orange hats? There can be a bit of a variance in the history but really you should always get two of the strikes done relatively well. Instructors and shoot bosses also have to train the instructors in training. It is always best for some of that to be done at an instructor boot camp but that isn't always an option.

You're absolutely right that we are a bit insular. It probably originates in that many instructors are devoting ourselves to Appleseed at the expense of other shooting sports and disciplines. I haven't been to an NRA High Power or CMP match at my local club in months. Realistically, it is an unfortunate unintended consequence of the core goal for the program. We should work harder at cross pollination with the other shooting sports.

Quote from: Agrivere on May 21, 2013, 04:46:48 PM
Tactical Intervention Quick Cuff sling

Here is a link for those interested. It is something that I have been thinking about as a modification to a traditional USGI sling for a while since clip buckles are inexpensive. $65 for a tactical sling isn't really all that expensive.

Is the underside of the cuff velcro or nylon? What I would really love is for something like that with velcro loops and then have a rubber strap underneath with velcro loops to help keep the cuff in position against skin. It would have really helped with one of the students at an event this past weekend who was getting sling burn.

Thanks again for the writeup!

Agrivere

QuoteIs the underside of the cuff velcro or nylon? What I would really love is for something like that with velcro loops and then have a rubber strap underneath with velcro loops to help keep the cuff in position against skin. It would have really helped with one of the students at an event this past weekend who was getting sling burn.

The sling you linked is the exact sling I used, and the cuff itself is just a nylon strap with Velcro sewed onto it.  It worked great for me, however the weekend we shot was on the relatively cool side, so I was wearing both a long sleeve shirt and a light fleece jacket.  Over clothing the sling cuff was plenty snug and did not chafe or cut off circulation.  I can easily imagine as the weather is warmer those slings could easily irritate skin, though I would worry that a rubber or neoprene lining would be very hot.

As I was poking around the other day I ran across another sling type I'd not found the first time around, which I'm sure many of you are aware of, that being the Ching sling.  Apparently it was designed by Eric Ching after attending one of Jeff Coopers classes at Gunsite, and it is considered a standard component to a Jeff Cooper style Scout Rifle.  It is intended to be another improvement on the standard USGI sling, though faster and simpler as it uses three sling swivels instead of a loop to provide a solid shooting base.  This sling is now issued (as I understand it) to US Marine snipers.  You can find the nylon version here Nylon Ching Sling and the leather version here Leather Ching Sling.

And while learning more about the Ching sling, I came across yet another variant of it called the RifleCraft RS1 sling.  It is basically designed to work like a Ching sling, but has been modified to work with only the standard two sling swivels.  It looks like the designer came up with the idea after attending his own Appleseed.  You can find more information about it here RifleCraft RS1 Sling.

For my own purposes I'm quite happy with the Quick Cuff sling I picked up, but there are certainly other options out there!

Safe shooting,

Agrivere
"The great body of our citizens shoot less as times goes on. We should encourage rifle practice among schoolboys, and indeed among all classes, as well as in the military services by every means in our power. Thus, and not otherwise, may we be able to assist in preserving peace in the world... The first step � in the direction of preparation to avert war if possible, and to be fit for war if it should come � is to teach men to shoot." -Theodore Roosevelt

techres

Quote from: Agrivere on May 22, 2013, 02:59:03 PM

As I was poking around the other day I ran across another sling type I'd not found the first time around, which I'm sure many of you are aware of, that being the Ching sling.

Ching sling is a blast from the past and was something we taught back at the early days of Appleseed.  It's relative rarity on the line caused it to be dropped from the curriculum and few newer instructors have probably worked with one.

It is a great option and works well for what it is designed to to, that is for sure.  It's advantages in speed and minimal adjustment are great.  The only down side is that it is less accurate than a web sling for slow fire use. 

If you have the chance to try one out, absolutely do so.  The more tools you have in your tool belt the better.  The set we teach is merely one set to help fill out a belt that is way bigger than us alone. 
Appleseed: Bringing the Past into the Present to save our Future.

fisherdawg

If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. (James Madison)

"Young man, what we meant in going for those Redcoats was this: we always had governed ourselves and we always meant to. They didn't mean we should."
(Captain Levi Preston, of the Danvers militia, at age 91, remembering the day)

That it is an indispensable duty which we owe to God, our country, ourselves and posterity, by all lawful ways and means in our power to maintain, defend and preserve those civil and religious rights and liberties, for which many of our fathers fought, bled and died, and to hand them down entire to future generations.  Suffolk Resolves, September 9, 1774, attributed to Dr. Joseph Warren

jwebster

Quote from: Agrivere on May 22, 2013, 02:59:03 PM

And while learning more about the Ching sling, I came across yet another variant of it called the RifleCraft RS1 sling.  It is basically designed to work like a Ching sling, but has been modified to work with only the standard two sling swivels.  It looks like the designer came up with the idea after attending his own Appleseed.  You can find more information about it here RifleCraft RS1 Sling.

I've got the RS1 sling and really like it. He's also making an RS2 rifle sling that works the same way, but doesn't have the reinforcement built in to hold the loop open. I'll be purchasing one of the RS2 slings soon.

RS2 Rifle Sling

Wy Knott

Thank you for the review. As always I can see we have a lot to work on. We need you constructive criticism at our after-action meetings.  :cool2:
"I have no respect for a man hoo can only spell a word one way"
-Andrew Jackson
I love you goose- you brought cookies and sharpies...what more could a person want?

Charles McKinley

Agrivere,

Thank you for the thought and time you put into these comments.

I'm glad you will be coming back.  I hope to see a GA has a new IIT post.

You have provided a great benefit to the program, may you continue to do so.

May we make full use of it and each improve the shoots that we work.

Stand
Last evening, it occurred to me that when a defender of Liberty is called home, their load lands upon the shoulders of the defenders left behind. Just as the Founders did their duty for Liberty, every subsequent generation must continue their work lest Liberty perish. As there is no way for the remaining adults to take on the work of those that die, we must pass the ideals and duties on to the children. -PHenery

franklinfarmer

Many thanks for the constructive comments Agrivere.

I will do my best to think through them carefully and improve, and I'm sure all the other instructors will as well.  Many instructors have responded above with comments similar to the ones I might make and probably the key comment:  We would be happy for you to consider joining us as an instructor.  Far too often we see shooters who get their patch at their first shoot and we don't see them again.  Perhaps it's our fault, though it does now require the attendance of at least two shoots to become an instructor in training, and there can be good reasons to get to know people to a certain extent before inviting them to join the IIT (instructor in training) program.  I will also join with the others above who look forward to your attendance at a second shoot, and hopefully we can make it a better one for you.

With the anticipation that you will be joining us in our mission, at least in some capacity, I will also mention a somewhat humorous, story of which your comments remind me.

One of our Appleseed instructors also shot rifleman at his first shoot.  He came to his second shoot, and noted that the shoot boss was basically working alone and could use some help organizing the instruction.  As was not uncommon in those days, he set aside his opportunity to be a student and work on his marksmanship and offered to help the shoot boss clearing the line and such things.  After the safety briefing, the red coat targets, and a history presentation, the shoot boss came up to him and said, "You know, I've got some things I need to get done.  It looks like you've got things in hand here, so the rest of the shoot is yours."  And he left.

All the best,
ff
It is certain, I think, that the best government is the one that governs least. But there is a much-neglected corollary: the best citizen is the one who least needs governing. The answer to big government is not private freedom, but private responsibility.

--Wendell Berry, "The Loss of the Future" in The Long-Legged House  (1969)

The problem is not Democrats.  The problem is Republicans who lack the intellectual clarity to become libertarians and libertarians who lack the physical discipline to become riflemen.  ---Kenneth Royce