Author Topic: Standing early in transition stages, no longer  (Read 2940 times)

Offline Patent guy

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Standing early in transition stages, no longer
« on: April 29, 2013, 09:36:45 PM »
Hello all, We have a new instructor manual, and now, on pages 22&23, we are explicitly told that shooters may not stand early,
in anticipation of the "safeties on, stand!" command.

Offline Nero

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Re: Standing early in transition stages, no longer
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2013, 10:08:56 PM »
And do we have a reason for that?

Offline dond

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Re: Standing early in transition stages, no longer
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2013, 11:38:05 PM »
All commands should be executed as they are given. And in this case it gives us some added assurance that the safeties are engaged before standing.

Offline Nero

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Re: Standing early in transition stages, no longer
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2013, 11:39:11 PM »
And what was the process for the deciding the change?  I have never seen this enforced before, and saw no discussion.

Offline George63

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Re: Standing early in transition stages, no longer
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2013, 02:37:21 AM »
always was the guideline if not policy - seldom enforced - exceptions are given for transitions and many other things and this detail has marginal impact negative or positive so it is largely ignored

Offline Fred

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Re: Standing early in transition stages, no longer
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2013, 08:09:01 AM »

   So here we are, on Punkatasett Hill, ready to talk over everything before taking action...the spirit of the founders, at least the ones in New England, burns strong, my brothers. :)

    I don't know that every detail in the manual was discussed - I don't know if we'd even have time for that - plus there's the additional question of "discussed by whom?" Discussed by the senior ITs? By the SBs? By all the instructors?

    Particularly when the discussion venue would be via the internet - and we have all experienced the internet, invented by Satan for the sole purpose of sewing doubt, confusion, and the "clouding of men's minds", and possibly the worse way to get anything done in harmony and group agreement. Good Grief, who'd want to go thru that process? ::)

     I suggest deep devout thanks to the ones named in the manual who lifted that burden from the rest of us, so we wouldn't have to spend months of posting, thinking, and wrangling over obscure and non-obscure points. As a veteran of many of these internet discussions, I can conceive of nothing in the manual (or little, at least) that someone, somewhere, would not take exception to.

     But, since it's bad to have the manual say one thing, and everybody else be doing something else. I suggest we all suck it in and do what the manual says. If for no other reason, let's respect and trust the work put into it, and the instructors who did the work.

    PS: There are instructional issues which cannot be decided one way or the other in either an intellectual, and educational, or a popular sense; to the extent the manual dictates a solution, let's do "something different", and simply "follow the manual" until the next revision. It's simply the nice thing to do, a mark of respect for other hard-working volunteers in the program.

     PPS: Nor do I want to suggest that outside input to the manual drafters should be discouraged. If you feel strongly about some point, feel free to PM the drafters (please also CC me as an "FYI"), outlining your suggestion, pro or con, for future consideration re incorporation into said manual.
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Offline BeSwift

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Re: Standing early in transition stages, no longer
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2013, 09:15:30 AM »
It will be done... This actually solves a debate we've been having in MD, so perfect timing...It's kind of a non-issue anyway for 90% of the line...  BeSwift

Oh yeah.. Fred gets the "quote of the week" award for this one...  Love it...   ;D

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« Last Edit: April 30, 2013, 09:18:57 AM by BeSwift »
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Offline PHenry

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Re: Standing early in transition stages, no longer
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2013, 11:36:00 AM »
I prefer to see shooters follow line commands to the letter at all times. I prefer to see instructors know what to expect and when to look for it. I teach new IITs to focus hard on the "safeties on / stand!" command and watch for muzzle control and safed rifles.

When the change was made from live transitions with loaded rifles (safeties on), to leaving mags on the mat, it was SOP at that time to have the entire line stand at the same time. Check with DonD, Hawkhavn, Nickle and some other old timers -  maybe I am mistaken about the SOP part, but that's how it was taught to me by DragonWood, Atticus and SonofMartha.

I did my IIT before the term existed, and I was taught to expect students to follow the line commands precisely. The explanation offered to me at that time was "They are called commands for a reason PHenry".

That's my .02
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Offline Patent guy

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Re: Standing early in transition stages, no longer
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2013, 12:10:35 PM »
So it appears we have two categories of reasons (a) safety/predictability and (b) because they are "commands" meaning that literal, immediate obedience is required.

Speaking as another old man on that hill:  Here's my problem:  When students are "In prep" they can do anything but load, right?  Some students will prep in anticipation of skipping the transition and our rules allow that, as they must.  Some other students will prep for a transitition stage while standing, because they have individually decided to do the entire AQT standing (usually old, fat guys like me).  We should note here that we have instructors who have done many AQTs standing for all four stages, and frankly, some could not do a prone or sitting stage, but they adapted by becoming very skillful offhand.  So the notion that all follow the line commands literally has never been true and will never be true.

Given that our rules allow folks to prep for the sitting stage while standing and allow them to skip the transition altogether, why be so literal about when they stand?

On the safety issue, if an RSO or a LB has one student on their side of the line who wants to stand "early" (and there are very good reasons for doing so), that student will be watched more carefully because the others are still seated or prone, so it seems to me that safety may actually be enhanced.

Looking to how our sister organizations do similar things, the CMP and the NRA are silent on whether you can stand early, and I suspect it is for the same reasons.  If you can prep for a transition by just picking up your rifle, orienting your feet and slinging up, then the RSOs have a line where some are standing and some are prone/sitting.

Offline ATM

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Re: Standing early in transition stages, no longer
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2013, 01:43:01 PM »
This discussion came up 3 years ago in a thread. Below is my reply in that thread (which does not need resurrected).

Quote
We put them into a prep period, not a position. During prep, they may do many things as long as they aren't violating any of the 4 rules.
The next command simply ends the prep period. No extra command is given to sit or get into prone if they aren't or haven't.
"Safeties on, stand" is the first specific action and position we require of the shooters. If they aren't there, they now need to get there (unless waived for whatever reason.)

This part of the discussion is boiling down to this: what should we allow during prep period?

My answer: most anything that does not violate a rule.

If an SB opts to treat transition stage prep periods differently than all others, they must explain these expectations to the students very clearly because standing during prep period is nowhere forbidden by any actual rule or command.

I do hope that this one point of discussion does not take away from the outstanding efforts and attention to detail invested in this huge project. It is a fantastic and very thorough manual revision for which I am very appreciative.

Thanks to all involved, well done!  O0
« Last Edit: April 30, 2013, 01:46:50 PM by ATM »
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Offline techres

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Re: Standing early in transition stages, no longer
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2013, 01:43:37 PM »
My first comments were a bit more blunt than I intended and probably better made in the thread that ATM linked to:

http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=14734.msg123369#msg123369

To sum up my concerns:

1. Control when necessary for safety is a good thing.
2. Control should be avoided when not needed for safety and when it impedes on student learning.
3. I see no safety impingement with early standing.
4. I do see reasons to let them stand, both physical and philosophical.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2013, 03:32:17 PM by techres »
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Re: Standing early in transition stages, no longer
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2013, 06:08:30 PM »
I see no reason to prevent early standing, its a prep period as others have stated.

My problem upon checking the new manual is that at multiple points around this issue it now says "These transitions are dangerous"

In terms of liability that doesn't seem too wise. According to the AS Official Instructor training manual as now issued we are to ask people to do something which "is dangerous" and then offered suggestions to do our best to look out for this and that to mitigate it. Don't get me wrong, we all know going to a shooting event with firearms is inherently an activity with some degree of risk, which is why we have them sign liability disclaimers, etc, etc. But to have a manual which says we are knowingly asking people to do something which in our own manual, by our own words, etc we state to "be dangerous" seems egregious.

By the previous manuals we ask people to do "something" and we take the following steps to reduce any risk that there might be. We have altered that over time to match other organizations in terms of the risk tolerance - as Fred's recent prehistory has alluded, we and the CMP and the NRA used to do loaded transitions. This was altered to the current unloaded transitions to reduce the risk factors. What we were doing previously wasn't and has never been stated by any of the involved organizations to "be dangerous." We just have an alternative which "reduces the risks".

Fire aware - I know this is all about splitting semantics and words but thats what lawyers are paid big bucks to do... we don't need to feed them freebies.

It seems to me that with every edition of the manual we are moving ever further from a clear, concise reference manual which lays out the official content of the syllabus towards a typical modern textbook full of mentoring tips, hints and suggestions, options and alternatives, footnotes and sidebars. Its like its trying to put every "one more thing" and the kitchen sink into a downloadable self-help guide for  people who can't get personal mentoring on the trail or from an IBC.

Again I'm not saying I disagree or don't see value in many of the tips and suggestions and mentoring food for thought but its generating unnecessary churn and volume for what should be a tried and trusted settled syllabus. The manual should be the "official" statement, which has been vetted and checked and word approved. All the "and one more thing" stuff can then be relegated to regularly updated, less regulated, reviewed and checked "guides" which don't have the "force of law" "official" imprimatur.

I would suggest splitting the manual (easiest is to reinstate the v3.0 manual as the "Reference Manual", version 7 as a self-help Guide on how to put it into practice) to address these two separate requirements. Otherwise it risks falling between stools.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2013, 06:16:36 PM by V »

Offline Patent guy

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Re: Standing early in transition stages, no longer
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2013, 10:24:25 PM »
I do hope that this one point of discussion does not take away from the outstanding efforts and attention to detail invested in this huge project. It is a fantastic and very thorough manual revision for which I am very appreciative.
Thanks to all involved, well done!  O0

Hear Hear!   :bow:

Offline oladcock

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Re: Standing early in transition stages, no longer
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2013, 02:21:05 AM »
My first comments were a bit more blunt than I intended and probably better made in the thread that ATM linked to:

http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=14734.msg123369#msg123369

To sum up my concerns:

1. Control when necessary for safety is a good thing.
2. Control should be avoided when not needed for safety and when it impedes on student learning.
3. I see no safety impingement with early standing.
4. I do see reasons to let them stand, both physical and philosophical.

 O0 O0 O0  Get me shooting AQT's, I won't get into position at all till the "fire" command. I've never seen standing early as a problem in any way. Lets call it "adaptive"! Lets not let over regulation for the sake of regulation creep out of DC and into Appleseed!....O.L.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 01:16:03 PM by oladcock »
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Offline DrRichP

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Re: Standing early in transition stages, no longer
« Reply #14 on: May 02, 2013, 02:38:37 PM »
I do hope that this one point of discussion does not take away from the outstanding efforts and attention to detail invested in this huge project. It is a fantastic and very thorough manual revision for which I am very appreciative.
Thanks to all involved, well done!  O0

Hear Hear!   :bow:

On behalf of DonD and myself, we would like to thank you for your kind words and recognition of the efforts to provide what we believe is an Instructor Manual we can all be proud of, and that meets the needs of all our Instructors and IITs.
DrRichP

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Offline DrRichP

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Re: Standing early in transition stages, no longer
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2013, 02:51:32 PM »
My problem upon checking the new manual is that at multiple points around this issue it now says "These transitions are dangerous"

In terms of liability that doesn't seem too wise. According to the AS Official Instructor training manual as now issued we are to ask people to do something which "is dangerous" and then offered suggestions to do our best to look out for this and that to mitigate it. Don't get me wrong, we all know going to a shooting event with firearms is inherently an activity with some degree of risk, which is why we have them sign liability disclaimers, etc, etc. But to have a manual which says we are knowingly asking people to do something which in our own manual, by our own words, etc we state to "be dangerous" seems egregious.

By the previous manuals we ask people to do "something" and we take the following steps to reduce any risk that there might be. We have altered that over time to match other organizations in terms of the risk tolerance - as Fred's recent prehistory has alluded, we and the CMP and the NRA used to do loaded transitions. This was altered to the current unloaded transitions to reduce the risk factors. What we were doing previously wasn't and has never been stated by any of the involved organizations to "be dangerous." We just have an alternative which "reduces the risks".

Fire aware - I know this is all about splitting semantics and words but thats what lawyers are paid big bucks to do... we don't need to feed them freebies.

We thank you for your constructive comments. While many instructors have considerable experience doing things a certain way, and there has never been a problem associated with those practices for them; we also recognize that not all IITs, Instructors, new SBIT's, and other SBs have that same level of experience. It was our earnest intent to propose what we believe is the safest way to conduct certain activities based on reviews of procedures as well as real-world experience from our cadre. It was certainly not meant to cast aspersions or make inferences on the ways our most experienced Instructors conduct Appleseed events. Nonetheless, we agree the wording of the paragraphs you cited could be improved.

In response we have made the appropriate edits, and updated the IM online. We encourage all Instructors and IITs to download the current version of the IM, and replace any other older versions of the current version of the IM.

Thank you again for the constructive criticism.
DrRichP

"You never know how far reaching something you think, say or do today will affect the lives of millions tomorrow" - B.J. Palmer
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“What makes an insurrection here always more formidable than in other places is that there is a law of this province wh[ich] obligates every inhabitant to be furnished with a firelock, bayonet, and pretty considerable quantity of ammunition.”  - Gen. Lord Hugh Percy

Offline eaglescouter

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Re: Standing early in transition stages, no longer
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2013, 02:54:52 PM »
Please consider issuing updates/revisions as single pages to be replaced.
I don't need to reprint the entire document to reflect the edits that were only done on one or a few pages.
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Offline dond

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Re: Standing early in transition stages, no longer
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2013, 03:30:56 PM »
The wording on pages 23, 26, and 27 have been altered to dispose of the "dangerous" aspect. Thank you for pointing this out.

Furthermore, some changes have been made to the PCs, mainly the PC3 and IPC as I recall.

Offline Nero

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Re: Standing early in transition stages, no longer
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2013, 04:27:00 PM »
Please consider issuing updates/revisions as single pages to be replaced.
I don't need to reprint the entire document to reflect the edits that were only done on one or a few pages.

+1 on that.

It's gotten complex enough that we need to be able to track incremental changes (remember change bars and update pages for paper technical manuals?) 

Is anyone current enough on document / change management systems to say whether there's something free/cheap out there that would do the job?  (I'm not up to speed.)

Offline eaglescouter

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Re: Standing early in transition stages, no longer
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2013, 08:01:36 PM »
Please consider issuing updates/revisions as single pages to be replaced.
I don't need to reprint the entire document to reflect the edits that were only done on one or a few pages.

+1 on that.

It's gotten complex enough that we need to be able to track incremental changes (remember change bars and update pages for paper technical manuals?) 

Is anyone current enough on document / change management systems to say whether there's something free/cheap out there that would do the job?  (I'm not up to speed.)

I'm  not aware of anything (but it is also out of my field).

I would like to see the downloadable handbook as one file.
And separately downloadable replacement pages. With a cover sheet instructing which old pages to dispose of, which new pages to insert.  If you add more than you take out, then the add pages get decimal increments (add page 2.1).
The changed text should be bolded (on the new page to make it easy to see the changes.
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Offline DrRichP

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Re: Standing early in transition stages, no longer
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2013, 09:50:06 PM »
DonD has indicated the pages that have been updated.

The wording on pages 23, 26, and 27 have been altered to dispose of the "dangerous" aspect. Thank you for pointing this out.

Furthermore, some changes have been made to the PCs, mainly the PC3 and IPC as I recall.

When you download the manual, you only need print these pages and replace the old ones if that is your desire.

Currently we do not plan to make any more interim changes until the next version of the manual is warranted.
DrRichP

"You never know how far reaching something you think, say or do today will affect the lives of millions tomorrow" - B.J. Palmer
   Think about that as you go to work the next Appleseed!

"The secret of change is to focus all of your energy, not on fighting the old, but on building the new." Socrates

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."-Benjamin Franklin

“What makes an insurrection here always more formidable than in other places is that there is a law of this province wh[ich] obligates every inhabitant to be furnished with a firelock, bayonet, and pretty considerable quantity of ammunition.”  - Gen. Lord Hugh Percy

Offline Sly223

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Re: Standing early in transition stages, no longer
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2015, 09:45:18 AM »
SAFTEIS ON STAND.
YOU TEACH FROM THE UNKNOWN TO THE KNOWN.
WITH OUT A PRACTICE?
 UNSAFE.
THIS IS NOT OPINION THIS IS THE WAY THE ENTIRE FL cadre teach,and were taught to teach.
My analogy would be to have a 2 minute lecture on the basics of swimming and push everyone in the deep end.
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« Last Edit: June 28, 2015, 09:55:17 PM by Sly223 »
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Offline dond

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Re: Standing early in transition stages, no longer
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2015, 04:18:04 PM »
Nothing was said about doing it without practice. In fact we always give a demonstration and then have the shooters go through at least one practice session for Stages 2 and 3 without ammunition but with total simulation to determine if they can do it safely. We also time these sessions to give them valuable experience before doing it live. Should this have been included in the manual? Perhaps so, but then we are condemned for making the manual too long. Go figure.  ::)