Will NYSAFE impact the Appleseed program?

[sprntrcr]

Hi,

Just curious if any changes will be needed to the appleseed program when given in NY due to NYSAFE.   I had plans to go to PA, but now see some events scheduled closer to home.   If the program remains the same,  I'll change my plans to attend locally,  otherwise I'll go to PA to take.

Thanks,
Rob...

[Another D.O.M.]

Hello Rob - welcome to the Appleseed forum.

We are hoping that the NY SAFE Act will wake up a lot more of the sleeping patriots, not only in NY but around the nation.  We're hoping that the rash, irresponsible actions of our legislature and governor will show folks just how far our government has strayed from the path the founders intended for them to follow.  And we're hoping that more folks will view Appleseed as a worthwhile, even necessary, means to help correct this; and that more folks will come out to our weekend programs.

There will be some minor adjustments made to some of the shooting portion of the program.  Because NY law now dictates no more than seven rounds in a magazine, we'll alter the strings of fire for the Red Coats and AQTs to accommodate this.  Red Coats will be 7 & 6 rather than 10 and 3; and all stages of the AQT will be 5 & 5 (necessitating a mag change in all four stages).  Times will remain the same for all stages.  The 'rapid fire' AQT will become more challenging for those Shoot Bosses who choose to use it - six mags instead of four (at this point we haven't really discussed this in detail).

Our biggest challenge nationwide is ammo availability and cost.  This means that we need to expand the LibertySeed portion of the Appleseed program so that folks who may be temporarily 'ammo poor' can hear the history and heritage message, and can join us in spreading this message to others.  The more folks who understand the tremendous debt we owe to those who gave so much to make this nation and our unique system of government possible, and the responsibilities we share as caretakers of our Constitution, the easier it becomes to reverse the damage that has been done by decades of laziness, apathy and ignorance.

The NY SAFE Act is a mistake.  If we use it wisely, we can do much to help regain our lost liberties.
MJA

[sprntrcr]

MJA,

Thank you for the detailed response.   I wasn't sure if the NYSAFE exemption to the 7 round law for "recognized ranges or shooting events"  would cover the appleseed events,  but it sounds like no from what you describe.

I understand the biggest issue right now is ammo.   Our local Boy Scout camp is frantically searching for .22LR to use at summer camp.   A lot of folks, including myself,  have stepped up to donate,  but they need a large quantity to cover the normal program.   Fortunately, there are quite a few folks out there that understand the importance of giving youth the experience and proper training.

My son will be going to the Boy Scout national jamboree this year, where for the first time they will be offering higher caliber (bigger than 22LR) and pistol shooting which he is hoping to participate in (he has already earned his rifle shooting (22LR) and shot gun).   I want to take him to an Appleseed before he goes (a good excuse for me to go too )  Now just need to decide where to go.

Thanks,

[Hinermad]

One bit of relief - the state budget bill passed last week lifted the ban on the sale of magazines holding more than seven rounds. We may now purchase ten round magazines again, but we may still only load them with seven. This Ruger 10/22 shooter breathed a sigh of relief before jumping back into the fray.

I think the 7 & 6 and 5 & 5 strings are a good idea. The middle of an Appleseed is no place to be debating the applicability of a legal exception. The rifle still goes "bang" the right number of times. (Unless you're shooting the wrong kind of ammo.)

Dave

[jmdavis]

One should be aware that by adding a mag change in standing you may increase the possibility of sweeps or accidents. Instructors will want to make sure that the shooters have both their magazines on their person when the string of fire begins. It is far easier to sweep the line in standing than sitting or prone.

[The Mrs.]

My understanding is that as long as we are instructing at a recognized range that we can load 10 rounds in a magazine.  If we ran an AS on some kind person's property, we would be bound by the 7 round rule, but to date I do not believe we have any shoots that are not on incorporated ranges.

My $0.02.

[CharlieHotel]

In order to make the answer completely unclear:

From the SAFE Act QandA page.

http://www.governor.ny.gov/nysafeact/gun-owners

Q: How many rounds can I put in my magazine?:
A: While at a recognized range, whether you are there for recreation or for participating in shooting competitions, you may load the full ten rounds into any magazine you have. Starting on April 15, 2013, you are limited to putting 7 rounds in the magazine in all other locations.

CH

[Dude]

10 rounds are OK at an organized shoot or at an incorporated range. It was in the law from the beginning; even before they backed off on the mag limit recently.

The whole thing was a mess from the get go. I can remember reading that paragraph [7f of who knows what section?] at least twice and asking a couple other guys, including LittleMo: "So does this mean A/s is OK? I mean, it sure SEEMS like is says that. So, uh??" Apparently, after consulting with the NY Wizards of Gun Nonsense, that was indeed their intention, as we found out later.

If however, A/S Policy is to go with the limitations then we should do so. Higher pay grade needs to decide that policy.

[LittleMo]

As The Mrs. and Charlie Hotel posted, as long as we are at an incorporated range, one can load 10 rounds into a 10 round capacity mag. Dude pointed out this has been this way since unSAFE law was illegally shoved down our throats... I mean since the SAFE law was enacted.

I don't see the need for altering the round count for the Red Coats or AQTs as far as the number of rounds in the mags. Our round count in each mag while shooting these targets is complient with the law.

Remember to constantly contact your state senators and assembly members about your stance and how you want them to vote while representing you on this and other issues!

Let your voice be heard!

Gary

p.s. Don't totally trust the SAFE act Q & A web page. It leaves out some facts and is vague on some others.

[Dude]

It doesn't say "recognized", but "incorporated". This is to prevent people saying that they have their own "range" set up on their property. Some clubs may not be incorporated, but Iroquois is.

7-f. Possession and use of a magazine, belt, feed strip or similar
______________________________________________________________________
9 device, that contains more than seven rounds of ammunition, but that
________________________________________________________________________
10 does not have a capacity of or can readily be restored or converted to
________________________________________________________________________
11 accept more than ten rounds of ammunition, at an indoor or outdoor
________________________________________________________________________
12 firing range located in or on premises owned or occupied by a duly
________________________________________________________________________
13 incorporated organization organized for conservation purposes or to
________________________________________________________________________
14 foster proficiency in arms; at an indoor or outdoor firing range for the
________________________________________________________________________
15 purpose of firing a rifle or shotgun; at a collegiate, olympic or target
______________________________________

[Fred]

     Since RWVA is  a duly
________________________________________________________________________
13 incorporated organization organized... to
________________________________________________________________________
14 foster proficiency in arms,,,

     and since to put on an AS, we do it at

an indoor or outdoor
________________________________________________________________________
12 firing range located in or on premises...occupied by a duly
________________________________________________________________________
13 incorporated organization organized...to
________________________________________________________________________
14 foster proficiency in arms

    It looks to me like we are OK.

    However the posters above are correct that "being within your rights" can cost big $ if the gov decides to dispute those rights.

     We need to recruit a NY lawyer (heck, let's recruit a bunch - anyone want to recruit country bar associations and offer them a free AS?) to really check the issue out.

[Hinermad]

     We need to recruit a NY lawyer (heck, let's recruit a bunch - anyone want to recruit country bar associations and offer them a free AS?) to really check the issue out.

Working on it. (grin)

Right now it's not going to be easy to get a clear opinion from a lawyer because of the state of flux things are in. The law was passed in January, its 7 round capacity limit was rescinded about 2 weeks ago (although it still says to load no more than seven, subject to the exceptions you listed), and there are several court challenges stirring things up. Any lawyer is going to put so many ""ifs, ands, or buts" on his opinion it's not going to mean much more than mine or yours.

I think the exception does apply to Appleseeds, for the very reasons you say, but until this stuff settles out I'd advise playing it safe and put no more than 7 in the magazine.

Dave

[sgtrock]

Burlington Flats is Incorporated,,,

I will be the SB, we will have an UnButchered Appleseed Shoot,,,

The only thing that might need a change is ammo situation, May have to back off 200-300 rds,,, 

[Dude]

I think if you get a statement from the local police and/or the county sheriff's office in the jurisdiction where the shoot is located, you would be fine. The state police are already OK, per their website.

You will add confusion to the shoot, and therefore REDUCE safety, with extra mag changes and people not remembering if they have 5, or 6, or 7, prepped. Or, maybe 8!

[fepowered]

I asked for a more specific definition of 'incorporated range', and was told by the individual that they could not answer the question, since it deals with corporate law and not penal law.  I then asked if there is a difference between a range that is 'incorporated' and a range that is a 501(c)(3) NFP organization.  ..

501(c)(3) is a type of a corporation.  The range will have articles of incorporation and will operate as a corporation with a board of directors. 

[Hinermad]

And the law enforcement agency that has been tasked with enforcing this law (the NY State Police) cannot answer this question.  My real point is, the law is anarchic if it does not specifically define the terms contained within it. And THAT is the problem that I have to deal with.

If law enforcement can't figure it out, they'll have the courts do it. All it takes is one law enforcement officer who thinks "something's not right" to get that ball rolling. But does involving Appleseeders in a court case further the mission of the RWVA?

Dave

[fepowered]

My point is, will a range incorporated under the laws of a foreign nation qualify as a 'duly incorporated range'?

What are you talking about...  ?"foreign/island nation"? 

In plain terms, "duly incorporated" means that it has properly established itself as a corporation for tax, business purposes, etc.  It really is not any more complicated than that.   If the State of New York recognizes the corporate entity for tax and other business purposes, not only is it a duly incorporated range, but it is a corporation in good standing with the State.

My real point is, the law is anarchic if it does not specifically define the terms contained within it. And THAT is the problem that I have to deal with.

The language is unambiguous.  "Duly Incorporated" is a term in common use. 

[Dude]

I don't see anyone at an  established rod and gun club getting in trouble, even if they are not "duly incorporated", just under a d/b/a, for example. The intent here is for you not to stick up a piece of plywood on your property with "Joe's Rod and Gun Club" on it and attempting to call it any kind of official range.

Now, it might be a good idea if you know your club is NOT incorporated, for some strange reason, most are, to have them go through that process, just to be on the SAFE side. Sorry, couldn't resist.

[fepowered]

You are confusing your objections to the legislation and the Legislature of New York in general with the verbiage of the legislation.  Whether you approve of the magazine restriction or not, "duly incorporated" is a commonly used term in legislation.  It means the same thing in Wisconsin or California as it does in New York.
You are taking this beyond a reasonable discussion as you try to express your disapproval of the legislation.  You are taking a simple matter and making it convoluted.   If the range is incorporated, you may load 10 rounds.  Black and White, plain and simple.     

[Another D.O.M.]

You are taking this beyond a reasonable discussion as you try to express your disapproval of the legislation.  You are taking a simple matter and making it convoluted.   If the range is incorporated, you may load 10 rounds.  Black and White, plain and simple.

Maybe you're right.  Maybe I've allowed my passion to distort the conversation.  I've removed the passionate responses.

I'm sure from the outside looking in, it does seem to be just black and white.  And maybe it's a lot easier to be convinced you're advice is right when there's no personal consequence for being wrong.

The point I am trying to make is that the law can, and will, be misused.  In fact, it already has been:

http://www.wben.com/Attorney--Use-Anti-Anxiety-Meds--Lose-Pistol-Permi/16002790
http://www.livescience.com/28617-prescription-meds-gun-control.html

As RWVA instructors, we have neither the authority nor the right to advise our students on this matter.  We do, however, have an obligation to let them know about the possible consequences of guessing incorrectly.

[Charles McKinley]

Depending where you are in New York the range at Slippery Rock, PA is your closest range anyway.

Slippery Rock is highly endorsed by SgtRock.  Beaver Falls is about another hour south of Slippery Rock.

Border raiders Welcomed!