US Army changing their rifle marksmanship program - Huh??

[oldgrunt]

 well you take what ..aka.USCAV DID FOR HIS MEN..and I think oneday at the B4 school some BLACKHAT going to say "where you get those skills kid?"..And that rockhard DM screams out proudly """appleseed training ......Sir...APPLESEED""....HOOOAZAAAHHHHH........But things are a changing slim belive me ..Fort Benning has a few looking at us ..I knew keepin my CEOI cheat sheet would pay off oneday..hint hint.. "G2, G3 "

                                         from one old harmony chruch grad...

[Nickle]

oldgrunt, the powers that be in the upper echelons of the Army are looking over the program currently.

They aren't looking us over as close, or as quickly as I'd like them to, but, they are at least looking.

Some units are using the program, my Guard unit is one, and I think it's about to spread to the whole battalion. My CSM was impressed enough when he came to zero his M4 this fall, that he took notice of the program and what it teaches. I was running that zero range, and ran a min-Appleseed type PMI talk before they zeroed. My unit got about an hour or two of PMI (hey, time gets tight for us) the day before, and the results were telling.

Now, that doesn't sound like much, but when an FSC (Forward Support Company) (mostly truck drivers, mechanics and cooks) is teaching an Infantry Battalion how to shoot, that's something.

[AdamSelene]

The article was very encouraging.  I dunno if that CPT knew shooting that well or not but the reporter is just that and they have a habit of destroying what they get from people quote wise unless they record it.

It sounds like the Army is heading in the right direction.  Maybe not perfect but a definite improvement.  The Vietnam and later era of Army marksmanship instruction was horrible. It will take quite a few years to get things fixed as well.  Remember that there are few "shooting schools" in the army.  Most soldiers get instruction only from their NCOs that may or may not know what they are doing.  Those NCOs all came of age in the era of the cold war program.

Appleseed can fix them if they can be convinced that they are not God's gift to marksmanship (a general American affliction, especially among military service members).  The only way to fix it is to get them on the new course of fire and have them get embarassed.  I knew I would learn a lot at Appleseed but that first round of redcoats humbled me and got me focused on learning.

[Tackleberry]

I would however, like to point out the importance of knowing terminal ballististics in addition to exterior ballistics. 

And I would like to point out that ballistics don't mean squat if you can't shoot 4 MOA consistently.

Actually, I have gotten a 1.79" group with that same rifle at 100 yards; that is less than 2 MOA (well under 4 MOA). Yet, that same M855 round would have the same termainal ballistics with a little less velocity.

You are right to invite military folks to the Appleseed. The BRM program was less than stellar when I was in the Army . The pistol program was even worse.

While I have not yet been to an Appleseed, I do think it is a good deal from what I have read. It is good to get the public trained on basic rifle skills! I would also think that in addition to exterior ballistics, it would be prudent to cover terminal ballistics. After all, you can shoot the equivelant of 4 MOA all day long with a BB gun and still not do much to a 'target'....

[Junior Birdman]

   Yup, this one's drifted about as far as it can go. Appleseed anyone? 

[Talon]

   Yup, this one's drifted about as far as it can go. Appleseed anyone? 

Now, you're talking.

[slim]

but when an FSC (Forward Support Company) (mostly truck drivers, mechanics and cooks) is teaching an Infantry Battalion how to shoot, that's something.

Proof.

[slim]

Appleseed can fix them if they can be convinced that they are not God's gift to marksmanship (a general American affliction, especially among military service members).  The only way to fix it is to get them on the new course of fire and have them get embarassed.  I knew I would learn a lot at Appleseed but that first round of redcoats humbled me and got me focused on learning.

I shot the M-16A2 quite a bit in the USAF. Took me a few tries, but eventually, I got the coveted "Marksmanship Expert" medal and I remember being so proud of how great a shooter I was. I was never God's gift to marksmanship, but I was so much better than most of my fellow service members and WAY better than any civilian hunters or paintballers, or, of course, the air rifle shooters could ever dream of being. I was an "expert." I could shoot. I was good.

I thank God that I never had to use my "marksmanship skills" in combat because looking back, I was a relatively poor shot, especially compared to what I'm capable of now.

And you know the weird thing about it? Back then, I was awesome and great, really good at what I did, ready for the war! But now, now that I know well what I'm about, now that I really can shoot great and awesome, I realize that it's not how well you can shoot, it's how well those around you can shoot.

There's a saying, "I don't have to outrun the bear.... I just have to outrun you." Well, if there's more than one bear, what's it matter if you can outrun your buddy?

[fepowered]

I shot the M-16A2 quite a bit in the USAF. Took me a few tries, but eventually, I got the coveted "Marksmanship Expert" medal and I remember being so proud of how great a shooter I was.

What was/is the AF course of fire?
It is interesting that the AF had an official Marksmanship team for about 10 years from the 50s to the 60s and even had member earn a silver medal at the 1964 Olympics.     An article from the 80s mentioned that AF instructors were/are called "Red Hats" because they wear a red baseball with the words Combat Arms on it to designate them as an instructor.

[Tackleberry]

It just occured to me why the military's shooting program probably isn't so hot, which is due to the frequency in which our troops qualify (or did qualify). I can remember the standard being one time a year for RA. I don't know about reserve or guard, but a one time qualification with no practice in between is down right outrageous.

There was no standing off-hand! There was no sitting or kneeling!

There was only fox-hole supported and prone unsupported (ONCE A YEAR).....

[Old Dog]

Tackleberry, I remember that. 

I also remember that in the 51 weeks between when we qualified each winter (we always did it the winter for some reason) there were only two guys in the platoon who put our own time and money towards improving our skills.  Two out of almost fifty.

The Army isn't completely as fault.  While I really looked forward to the opportunity to put some live rounds through my M14 I still felt I was responsible for making practice opportunities in between those once per year qualifications.  The Army can't force someone to fire expert.  Folks/soldiers have to WANT to fire expert.  It takes time and effort and desire to learn to shoot well. 

Appleseed can't force folks to learn to shoot rifleman scores.  They have to WANT to fire rifleman scores.  They have to put out the time and effort and have the desire to make it happen.

The folks here should have that desire (otherwise, why be here??).  The question is, how do we pass that desire on to others?

[fepowered]

As to Slim's comments on the Marines, take the word of a Marine Marksmanship Instructor. He came to observe the Harvard, MA Appleseed on April 19th, and he was impressed. He told me it's essentially the SAME stuff they taught in the Corps, at a faster pace. We teach in 2 days what they teach in 1 or 2 weeks.

It is obvious that Appleseed teaches solid doctrine which has been proven in the Corps for many decades.  The goal of a 2 day Appleseed is to get every participant motivated even if they do not qualify.  If the Corps, everyone MUST qualify at least to Marksman level by the end of that week or 2.  Every Marine is a Rifleman.   Qualification day is rain or shine, calm or blustery wind.  500 yards when the weather is crap is definitely a test of what you have been instructed. 
I guarantee that there are many of my fellow jarheads who have forgotten and not bothered to keep up what they have learned.   Having earned a rifle badge once and then putting it away in a drawer only to take out once a year to go to the Marine Corps Ball is pitiful.   I do know that there are a metric buttload of USMC veterans out there just waiting to be coaxed into joining us at a shoot and many excellent candidates for future IITs.

Appleseed can't force folks to learn to shoot rifleman scores.  They have to WANT to fire rifleman scores.  They have to put out the time and effort and have the desire to make it happen.

The folks here should have that desire (otherwise, why be here??).  The question is, how do we pass that desire on to others?

Not only can't we force people to shoot Rifleman, it is not even remotely reasonable to expect that everyone or even most will be able to do so after 2 days of instruction and shooting. 
If we do nothing else, our most basic accomplishment needs to be to pass the desire to do so on to everyone who we meet...

[Colorado Pete]

The question is, how do we pass that desire on to others?

BY EXAMPLE!!!!!!!!

[slim]

AF CATM (Combat Arms Training and Maintenance - AFSC 3P0X1B) are, in fact, called "Red Hats." And yes, they do wear red hats. There was actually some beef when some of them were forced to wear the berets now worn by most other "cops" (3P0X1, A, B) in the AF. They didn't want to give up their distinctive red caps. Most are now authorized to wear their red hats with their uniforms.

The qualification course for the AF was (unknown if it's still current but with the transition to M-4, probably somewhat different) with M-16A2 at 25M
10 shots Standing "over-barricade" position
10 shots Kneeling "around barricade" 
10 shots Prone unsupported
10 shots Prone supported (sandbag)

Qualification was something like 21 out of 40 and Expert was 35 out of 40. The target is composed of silhouettes representing distances out to 300M and was fired in timed stages with the higher positions being fired at the bigger targets. Not unlike what we do during the AQT.

One good thing about the AF is they're now making folks shoot with their gas masks on. Heck, we even shot at night sometimes. Not everyone does that and some troops only shoot twice in their entire career but for the most part, those who are likely to be deployed to an AOR where they may have to carry a rifle are trained pretty well on that rifle. But, they're not trained on proper sling use. They're not trained on proper NPOA shifts.... and they're not trained on all that before lunch time!

Plain and simple, one Appleseed would teach more to these troops than several years of "average" AF training. 

[vincewarde]

And then, there's the ".223" factor - I first remember this in Blackhawk Down [the book], but also there's an instance in We Were Soldiers Once, and Young [the book] in which a GI empties an M16 mag into the chest of an NVA to stop him...

The FMJ 5.56 factor.  I have seen a relatively recent autopsy report of a dead BG being hit with several Hornady TAP rounds which did not perform well either.  FMJ .mil rounds rely on fragmentation to kill.  If your target is "skinny", there is not enough depth for that to happen.  If I am going to use a .223 for defense, it will be with the same rounds I hunt animals with.  Soft point expanding hunting rounds.

A few weeks back I had the occasion to fire up a skunk with my RR AR. He was at the bottom of my pasture in daylight, and decided to charge after me. I emptied all but four rounds (of a 30 rd mag) into him, with at least 15 hits within 20 yards, rapid fire. The meat chunks and red mist was flying off of him as he was running at me. Finally, he dropped. I got close to look at him and noticed he had been dragging his guts!

I had FMJ (M855, 62 gn) loaded in my weapon. I decided that the M855 was a good idea for that car load of thugs who might drive up and starting shooting my house, but not good for the possibly rabid critters roaming around my home. I will be using 60 grn Hornady TAP for that purpose now, as I have used it on feral cats with awesome effect.

As a former paramedic, I have seen people remain awake and alert for 30-60 seconds with no heartbeat!  I know of a case where two LAPD officers put 11 rounds of .38 special (+P I believe) into a suspect and he still covered 50ft and buried a fire ax in one of their shoulders before dying.  People are not hard to kill - but at times they are hard to stop

The bottom line is this: A fatal wound - with any weapon - may leave the bad guy with quite a bit of useful consciousness.  If he is highly motivated and/or on drugs of some kind nothing short of a central nervous system hit is going to stop them in their tracks.  Shot placement is more important than the size of the round.  I would much rather hit someone in the brain or spine with a 5.56 or 9mm than in the gut or even lungs with a 7.62 or .45. 

[Reginmund]

When I was in basic training (US Army Infantry) back in 2001 we were told that the 5.56mm that we used today (well in 2001) was to WOUND an enemy with most shots. Sounds stupid I know, but think of it this way. In CONVENTIONAL warfare (aka pre-war on terror days) it made more sense. If you wound 1 enemy solider you take out 3+ from the fight. His buddies and/or medics to carry him away, the logistics to support him while he recovers, ect... But on the "new" battlefield we aren't fighting a conventional military anymore.

On a side note, the original design of the M16 and it's 5.56mm round did kill, it just wasn't as "accurate" as the rifle/bullet combination it was replacing. But to meet the accuracy standards set at that time, which were still for the M14, they had to change the twist rate of the barrel. This led to the bullet becoming more stable, and less likely to tumble when it hit the target. Thereby reducing lethality. This lead to the adoption of a heavier bullet to increase lethality. That led to... Well you get the point...

[fepowered]

When I was in basic training (US Army Infantry) back in 2001 we were told that the 5.56mm that we used today (well in 2001) was to WOUND an enemy with most shots. Sounds stupid I know, but think of it this way. In CONVENTIONAL warfare (aka pre-war on terror days) it made more sense. If you wound 1 enemy solider you take out 3+ from the fight. His buddies and/or medics to carry him away, the logistics to support him while he recovers, ect... But on the "new" battlefield we aren't fighting a conventional military anymore.

On a side note, the original design of the M16 and it's 5.56mm round did kill, it just wasn't as "accurate" as the rifle/bullet combination it was replacing. But to meet the accuracy standards set at that time, which were still for the M14, they had to change the twist rate of the barrel. This led to the bullet becoming more stable, and less likely to tumble when it hit the target. Thereby reducing lethality. This lead to the adoption of a heavier bullet to increase lethality. That led to... Well you get the point...

Don't believe everything the Army told you in basic training... <    The 5.56 is and was always intended to kill.  The 5.56 was never intended to tumble.  The current heavier bullet was implemented to penetrate cover.  Even the current 5.56 relies on fragmentation to kill.  The bullet enters, yaws and fragments.  When the velocity is lower at longer ranges, fragmentation is not as assured and this can lower the effectiveness of the fmj 5.56 round. 
This thread has drifted terribly off course and has gone outside of anything Appleseed related.  We can take a stroll over to ar15.com if we want to continue the lethality conversation.  There are literally hundreds of pages of threads discussing such things.  Here all we are concerned about is making Riflemen with at a minimum a rack grade rifle and surplus ammunition of any grain....

[SamD]

fepowered has the straight dope on this .
Let's get teh buckets out and bail.

BTW: you can bail better to the sound of Scout on http://www.blogtalkradio.com/AppleseedRadio

Sam

[Nickle]

Yup, and Scout is on right now.

We've gone to the point of leaving SOMSOM on this, so don't make me break out the lock.

[Rhodes]

During Nam the USAF marksmanship was pretty bleak during Basic but then they were running us though in four to six weeks depending on the year. Seems it was 50 rounds total with 10 Standing no sling, 15 Kneeling, and the rest prone no support. This of course was modified in advanced training depending on your job from either no further training for Techies to fairly intensive for AP and SF. I was able to weasel some extra range time for a Base Marksmanship Match that was all offhand, that was fun got to shoot all I wanted.

Pretty sure they changed this system since several situations in Nam showed it was woefully lacking.

Army was much better, Yeah I was in both...don't ask..., at least everyone had to qualify once a year.

Food on the other hand was MUCH better in the USAF.

[slim]

Food on the other hand was MUCH better in the USAF.

I'll take food at an Appleseed any day over food in the USAF!

[Rhodes]

Food on the other hand was MUCH better in the USAF.

I'll take food at an Appleseed any day over food in the USAF!

Well it was really good food no idea what its like now....the Army stuff had some odd side effects if you know what I mean. AS is much more fun than either and food just isnt as important at 53 as it was at 20.

[Nickle]

Well, I see a good hint wasn't enough to get folks working, and it's now digressed to talking baout food.

It started out good, and Old Dog made some great points, as did others, but it's no longer on that topic.

Folks, this isn't a chat forum, it's a work forum.

I'm locking it.

All because it morphed from a legit Appleseed discussion, into a discussion on various subjects, including which branch has the best food, the killing power of the 5.56 round and other non-Appleseed issues. 

http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=150.0

This is a working forum, for the advancement of Project Appleseed, not a chat forum for other topics. There are other places to visit for non-Appleseed discussions.

And, if you've got extra time to kill, Funfaler and I have some jobs for you and some buckets to bail with. Just ask.