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Looks like A/S is OK in NY-for now

Started by Dude, January 19, 2013, 02:53:39 PM

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Dude

From the new NYS website: http://www.governor.ny.gov/2013/gun-reforms-faq


Q: How many rounds can I put in my magazine today?
A: Ten. Starting on April 15, 2013, you are limited to putting in seven rounds, unless you are at an incorporated firing range or competition recognized by the National Rifle Association or International Handgun Metallic Silhouette Association, in which case the limit is ten.

http://www.governor.ny.gov/assets/documents/Rifles_imagesoriflesthatareNOTclassifiedasassaultrifles.pdf
page 14-Ruger 10/22 and page 15 Ruger Mini-14 and Mossberg 702
Strength and honor

Semper SOM/SOM

Every citizen should be a soldier. This was the case with the Greeks and Romans, and must be that of every free state. --Thomas Jefferson

Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty. --Thomas Jefferson

Johnnyappleseed

Quote from: Dude on January 19, 2013, 02:53:39 PM
From the new NYS website: http://www.governor.ny.gov/2013/gun-reforms-faq


Q: How many rounds can I put in my magazine today?
A: Ten. Starting on April 15, 2013, you are limited to putting in seven rounds, unless you are at an incorporated firing range or competition recognized by the National Rifle Association or International Handgun Metallic Silhouette Association, in which case the limit is ten.

http://www.governor.ny.gov/assets/documents/Rifles_imagesoriflesthatareNOTclassifiedasassaultrifles.pdf
page 14-Ruger 10/22 and page 15 Ruger Mini-14 and Mossberg 702
[/quote

Sheesh now I'm really confused . So it OK to load 10 rds for most lawfull activities but illegal to have more  than 7 if a person plans on a criminal act .

This common sense law sure could have saved lives if it were in place earlier. Unless of course the school murderer practiced rapid mag changes . Seems another law should be written to prohibit practicing mag  changes for the purpose of murdering innocent persons.

We know many folks have saved lives and property by being armed in the aftermath of natural disasters such as earthquakes hurricanes ect .
Does the law provide an exemption to the 7 rd limit for such disasters ? Or for legitimate self defense purposes s ?

Nothing in the world can take the place of Persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.
Calvin Coolidge

Dude

Some of us read the actual law and we got the impression that 10 rounds at a range would be OK, we just weren't sure. THAT'S how screwed up the language is; it's an awful piece of writing, no matter what side of the fence you're standing.

I still think the best feature of the new law is that they forgot about LEOs. But, I suppose that will be rectified soon enough.

And anything over 50 years old is OK, so our Garands are safe. How to make them work with 7 in a clip of 8 is an interesting concept, though.
Strength and honor

Semper SOM/SOM

Every citizen should be a soldier. This was the case with the Greeks and Romans, and must be that of every free state. --Thomas Jefferson

Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty. --Thomas Jefferson

gunville

still, seeds would be limited to 7 rd mag prep as it is not NRA sponsored...
-----------------------------
"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - George Orwell

Kosciusko

Quote from: gunville on January 19, 2013, 05:52:51 PM
still, seeds would be limited to 7 rd mag prep as it is not NRA sponsored...

Any  possibility of explaining AS to your reps and getting an exemption for the program?

Kosciusko

Smurf

Maybe the simplest thing to do is load 5 and 5 in all mags. Then there would not be a question of loading 7 or miscounting and loading 8. And maybe having to explain why we have 10 rounds in a mag. 

Dude

I see this with an "OR" in it. So, maybe it doesn't have to be NRA. I did explain this in detail to two of our representatives BEFORE the vote and really feel like it just might be how it got in to the bill.
NRA-ILA was there, too, so they probably got their input.

If NRA is a must, then perhaps they would like to associate with A/S? We know we have their attention.

photo: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10200415005843482&set=o.460896777304377&type=1&ref=nf
Strength and honor

Semper SOM/SOM

Every citizen should be a soldier. This was the case with the Greeks and Romans, and must be that of every free state. --Thomas Jefferson

Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty. --Thomas Jefferson

Dude

" unless you are at an incorporated firing range or competition recognized by the National Rifle Association or International Handgun Metallic Silhouette Association, in which case the limit is ten."

As I read this yet again, I think my interpretation is correct. [insert an understood "a" before the word "competition"]. Interpreting it the other way [NRA only] seems to me that the RANGE would have to be NRA or IHMSA approved.

Anyone else?

Strength and honor

Semper SOM/SOM

Every citizen should be a soldier. This was the case with the Greeks and Romans, and must be that of every free state. --Thomas Jefferson

Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty. --Thomas Jefferson

MetalgodZ

Quote from: Dude on January 20, 2013, 10:48:59 AM
" unless you are at an incorporated firing range or competition recognized by the National Rifle Association or International Handgun Metallic Silhouette Association, in which case the limit is ten."

As I read this yet again, I think my interpretation is correct. [insert an understood "a" before the word "competition"]. Interpreting it the other way [NRA only] seems to me that the RANGE would have to be NRA or IHMSA approved.

Anyone else?
Agreed, but IANAL.

My buddy, who works for the state parsing this stuff in order to provide voting recommendations to the lawmakers, hasn't told me he's done with the research yet. He did text me the day after this passed to say that the group was just receiving the text of the bill (by then, a law) to research.  ::)

If I were running an AS in NY at the moment, I would be loading 5 rounds per magazine to prevent confusion, and doing stage-by-stage alone, until there's some sort of better interpretation or official word from either the state coordinator, someone above the state coordinator, a reputable lawyer, or an authority recognized by or associated with the state gov't.

Hinermad

Here's the relevant text, right from the bill. (FAQs don't carry the force of law, nor are they usually accepted as a legal defense.)

Quote7-F. POSSESSION AND USE OF A MAGAZINE, BELT,  FEED  STRIP  OR  SIMILAR
    9  DEVICE,  THAT  CONTAINS  MORE  THAN SEVEN ROUNDS OF AMMUNITION, BUT THAT
   10  DOES NOT HAVE A CAPACITY OF OR CAN READILY BE RESTORED OR  CONVERTED  TO
   11  ACCEPT  MORE  THAN  TEN  ROUNDS  OF  AMMUNITION, AT AN INDOOR OR OUTDOOR
   12  FIRING RANGE LOCATED IN OR ON PREMISES  OWNED  OR  OCCUPIED  BY  A  DULY
   13  INCORPORATED  ORGANIZATION  ORGANIZED  FOR  CONSERVATION  PURPOSES OR TO
   14  FOSTER PROFICIENCY IN ARMS; AT AN INDOOR OR OUTDOOR FIRING RANGE FOR THE
   15  PURPOSE OF FIRING A RIFLE OR SHOTGUN; AT A COLLEGIATE, OLYMPIC OR TARGET
   16  SHOOTING COMPETITION UNDER THE AUSPICES OF OR APPROVED BY  THE  NATIONAL
   17  RIFLE  ASSOCIATION;  OR AT AN ORGANIZED MATCH SANCTIONED BY THE INTERNA-
   18  TIONAL HANDGUN METALLIC SILHOUETTE ASSOCIATION.

This section of the bill (Section 46) adds the above as an exception to the "criminal posession" type offenses defined in Penal Law 265. (This part becomes Paragraph 7-F of 265.20, if anybody's counting.) If you reformat it and take out the line numbers it's a little clearer:

Quote7-F. POSSESSION AND USE OF A MAGAZINE, BELT,  FEED  STRIP  OR  SIMILAR DEVICE,  THAT  CONTAINS  MORE  THAN SEVEN ROUNDS OF AMMUNITION, BUT THAT DOES NOT HAVE A CAPACITY OF OR CAN READILY BE RESTORED OR  CONVERTED  TO ACCEPT  MORE  THAN  TEN  ROUNDS  OF  AMMUNITION,

AT AN INDOOR OR OUTDOOR FIRING RANGE LOCATED IN OR ON PREMISES  OWNED  OR  OCCUPIED  BY  A  DULY INCORPORATED  ORGANIZATION  ORGANIZED  FOR  CONSERVATION  PURPOSES OR TO FOSTER PROFICIENCY IN ARMS;

AT AN INDOOR OR OUTDOOR FIRING RANGE FOR THE PURPOSE OF FIRING A RIFLE OR SHOTGUN;

AT A COLLEGIATE, OLYMPIC OR TARGET SHOOTING COMPETITION UNDER THE AUSPICES OF OR APPROVED BY  THE  NATIONAL RIFLE  ASSOCIATION;

OR AT AN ORGANIZED MATCH SANCTIONED BY THE INTERNATIONAL HANDGUN METALLIC SILHOUETTE ASSOCIATION.

Note the breaks at the semicolons. This makes it a list of the places where you may load more than 7 rounds: at a range operated by an organization incorporated to foster conservation or proficiency in arms (which covers most club and training ranges), at a rifle or shotgun range (which covers just about everything else), at an NRA competition, or at an IHMSA competition.

The only place I see where an Appleseed might be held that isn't covered by these exceptions is on private property that isn't expressly used as a rifle or shotgun range. If someone pushes up a berm on his north 40 just to host a 'Seed, I think the 7 round limit applies.

I'm not a lawyer, but this part of the new law is fairly straightforward.

Dave
The problem with doing the right thing is that sometimes you do it on your own.

Another D.O.M.

Quote from: Dude on January 19, 2013, 03:52:44 PMAnd anything over 50 years old is OK, so our Garands are safe. How to make them work with 7 in a clip of 8 is an interesting concept, though.
This is not true.  If the semi automatic rifle is more than 50 years old but it contains any of the evil features, you either need to get rid of it or you need to register it with the NY State Police by Jan 14, 2014.  The M1 Garand has a shrouded barrel and that's an evil feature so it must be registered or disposed of.  The barrel shroud provision encompasses about every semi auto battle rifle ever made.
"Dark & difficult times lie ahead.  Soon we must all face the choice between what is right, and what is easy."  Dumbledore

Hinermad

Quote from: Another D.O.M. on January 21, 2013, 12:24:18 AM
This is not true.  If the semi automatic rifle is more than 50 years old but it contains any of the evil features, you either need to get rid of it or you need to register it with the NY State Police by Jan 14, 2014.  The M1 Garand has a shrouded barrel and that's an evil feature so it must be registered or disposed of.  The barrel shroud provision encompasses about every semi auto battle rifle ever made.

The new wording of the assault weapon definition lists a barrel shroud as an evil feature for pistols, but not rifles. Here's the definition for rifles:

Quote(A)  A  SEMIAUTOMATIC RIFLE THAT HAS AN ABILITY TO ACCEPT A DETACHABLE MAGAZINE AND HAS AT LEAST ONE OF THE FOLLOWING CHARACTERISTICS:
(I) A FOLDING OR TELESCOPING STOCK;
(II) A PISTOL GRIP THAT PROTRUDES CONSPICUOUSLY BENEATH THE ACTION OF THE WEAPON;
(III) A THUMBHOLE STOCK;
(IV)  A  SECOND  HANDGRIP OR A PROTRUDING GRIP THAT CAN BE HELD BY THE NON-TRIGGER HAND;
(V) A BAYONET MOUNT;
(VI) A FLASH SUPPRESSOR, MUZZLE BREAK, MUZZLE COMPENSATOR, OR THREADED BARREL DESIGNED TO ACCOMMODATE A  FLASH  SUPPRESSOR,  MUZZLE  BREAK,  OR MUZZLE COMPENSATOR;
(VII) A GRENADE LAUNCHER;

Unfortunately it's the bayonet mount that renders the Garand evil in the eyes of the law. I'm torn on whether to register my Garand or to remove the bayo lug. I bought it to shoot, not collect.

Dave
The problem with doing the right thing is that sometimes you do it on your own.

Odin

An assualt rifle needs to have a detachable magazine, and one of the "evil" features listed.  The garand doesn't have a detachable magazine so it isn't an assualt rifle.
Deluce Bellum Inexpertis (sweet is war to those who have never experienced it) - Roman Proverb

"Of his knowledge a man should never boast, but be sparing in his speech.  When to his house a wiser man comes, seldom do the silent make mistakes" - Havamal

"To ask well and answer rightly are the marks of a wise man" - Havamal

Hinermad

Quote from: Odin on January 21, 2013, 08:58:06 PM
An assualt rifle needs to have a detachable magazine, and one of the "evil" features listed.  The garand doesn't have a detachable magazine so it isn't an assualt rifle.

Well, you got me there. I was confusing this part with the large capacity ammunition feeding device definition, which I posted earlier.

I'm such a Homer Simpson sometimes.

Dave
The problem with doing the right thing is that sometimes you do it on your own.

Johnnyappleseed

Think a modern jury could be convinced the 8 rd garand clip is  really a detachable mag ?

Just another great reason to fill the lines .
Nothing in the world can take the place of Persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.
Calvin Coolidge

Another D.O.M.

Quote from: Hinermad on January 21, 2013, 08:37:27 PM
Quote from: Another D.O.M. on January 21, 2013, 12:24:18 AM
This is not true.  If the semi automatic rifle is more than 50 years old but it contains any of the evil features, you either need to get rid of it or you need to register it with the NY State Police by Jan 14, 2014.  The M1 Garand has a shrouded barrel and that's an evil feature so it must be registered or disposed of.  The barrel shroud provision encompasses about every semi auto battle rifle ever made.

The new wording of the assault weapon definition lists a barrel shroud as an evil feature for pistols, but not rifles...

Yup, you got it right.  The darned thing is confusing as hell with all the cross-referencing, additions, exceptions, etc.  I thought I had seen something about semi rifles with a fixed mag with a capacity of more than five rounds - but that's in the exceptions, not the evil features.

It looks like pump-action rifles and shotguns have a blanket exception - at least for now.
"Dark & difficult times lie ahead.  Soon we must all face the choice between what is right, and what is easy."  Dumbledore

Another D.O.M.

Quote from: Johnnyappleseed on January 21, 2013, 10:32:56 PMThink a modern jury could be convinced the 8 rd garand clip is  really a detachable mag ?

Just another great reason to fill the lines .
Funny you should ask that question.  One of the speakers at the rally in Albany on Saturday spent 20 minutes coaching the attendees about jury nullification and law enforcement nullification.
"Dark & difficult times lie ahead.  Soon we must all face the choice between what is right, and what is easy."  Dumbledore

Dude

And the official statement from the CT State Police the other day regarding the firearms seized after the Sandy Hook shoot listed the "Bushmaster, with a large capacity clip"

CT needs A/S too.
Strength and honor

Semper SOM/SOM

Every citizen should be a soldier. This was the case with the Greeks and Romans, and must be that of every free state. --Thomas Jefferson

Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty. --Thomas Jefferson

K98Al

I wonder if the Germans and Japanese thought of the Garand as an "assault" rifle? Just a thought...a bunch of 1940s Americans coming at me with Garands would scare me much more than some more modern folks with AR style rifles.
Before we can defeat our external enemies, we must first meet and defeat everything in ourselves that is weak, lazy, and cowardly; everything in our character that is materialistic rather than spiritual, which seeks weak compromise and accommodation rather than struggle and victory.

Dude

Shhhhhhh!

Remember , the really scary part is the color and those 30 round "clips".
Strength and honor

Semper SOM/SOM

Every citizen should be a soldier. This was the case with the Greeks and Romans, and must be that of every free state. --Thomas Jefferson

Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty. --Thomas Jefferson