Maybe it's time to change our message

[K98Al]

The makeup of population, and the character of U.S. citizens is radically different now than 60 years ago. Even more different than 240 years ago.

Look at the character of folks who endured the Depression. How work programs had to be put into place - because such a large segment of the population wouldn't take something without working for it. In the face of extreme poverty, crime news was still mostly dominated by thugs in big cities, fighting amongst themselves. Citizens didn't do drive-bys, and fatherless armies didn't control miles of territory in "neighborhoods" that look more like war zones.

Unsure what the ultimate outcome of this country will be, but I can guarantee it's not going to resemble what the Founders had envisioned. We are not the same people we once were.

[Johnnyappleseed]

I am of the opinion human nature does not change over time,evidence of this theory are the writings of  Socrates,Plato ,Aristotle . The same human faults and wonderful characteristics are outlined in nearly all great philosophers and writers regardless of what century .Recently the great Taylor Caldwell wrote of the rich men of earth in her many historical novels.

The representatives of royal blood and financial dynasties (so called mainstream ) have cleverly and without conscience led many to reject modern heroes ,again nothing new !
Recall  5000 years ago wealthy men hired clowns and mimes to ridicule the great Greek ruler Pericles ! Of course it worked and Pericles was ruined!

For those who believe elections are not important we need to only look back to the election of 1912 where JP Morgan and company partially financed the bull moose party to elect fed reserve advocate Wilson over Taft who opposed the banking act .

Further evidence of the importance of elections can be found in individual state govts . Compare the idea of self protection in Alaska,Wyoming,Vermont and Arizona ,Wisconsin etc etc against New York ,Illinois or Los Angeles .

What are the odds that wealthy cabals or individuals are promoting current bull moose parties to elect the most anti freedom individuals ?

I am a single issue voter and always vote NRA GOA recommendations . Those who fought the Kings Army never had that option .

[NHale]

mattra,

looks like you got the same response here that you got over at RFC. 

IMHO, you should bring AS complains here first, not RFC. 

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=478638

Now I know what you're talking about. 

Agree with Fred AND Douglas. Definitely violates the 200 year rule on politics.

-NH

[Johnnyappleseed]

NHale good points and I agree Appleseed is not the venue for partisan politics ! Besides for the 1st time in recent history an avid ,outspoken anti gunner got elected to national office w/o using the effective 3rd party trick .

I would humbly suggest those who want to do partisan politics on other forums use a name other than the Appleseed name .

As Fred told me " If we get the reputation as a gun rights ,right wing organization ,those who need the message the most will not attend"


.

[mattra]

The problem is, we aren't living 200 years in the past. Usually I understand the reason for the rule, but with the current events and the 2nd Amendment under unprecedented attack - to keep with that rule and to avoid being seen as a gun rights group just to not offend some people is ridiculous. What if the founding fathers were so concerned with offending King George - would we have gained our freedom or would we have remained subjects?

[George Hacker]

I don't think Fred is concerned about offending the King.  He doesn't want to offend the town folk who need to have the concept of liberty rekindled in their hearts.

ShadowMan

[GEmanuel]

The problem is, we aren't living 200 years in the past. Usually I understand the reason for the rule, but with the current events and the 2nd Amendment under unprecedented attack - to keep with that rule and to avoid being seen as a gun rights group just to not offend some people is ridiculous. What if the founding fathers were so concerned with offending King George - would we have gained our freedom or would we have remained subjects?

mattra,
The problem is you have failed to hear the words of the previous posts.
Appleseed is not about organized advocacy except as it pertains to making the public aware of what the Founders have left for them.
Most of us are very actively involved in the political struggle which rages today, but not here. Here our job is to wake up our fellow Americans and to get them involved. We don't advocate for or tell them where to go once they are awakened, that is a matter for thier own conscience.
Your passion while admirable should be focused while here on advancing the Appleseed Mission. It is better to avoid the ice bergs which are all about us and concentrate on steering the ship safely to our destination.
Tunnel vision has its place, this might be one of those.

[mal]

We're a non-profit and therefore barred from talking politics. Pretty simple.

Just a clarification, non-profit status simply means you cannot officially endorse or substantially aid a particular candidate. 
It does not bar you from 'talking politics'.

[Transform]

but with the current events and the 2nd Amendment under unprecedented attack

ShadowMan and GEmanuel are quite correct; I'd like to add just one more thing: the current attacks are not quite so unprecedented as they might appear to modern eyes. From an historical perspective, if you manage to look past the former veneer of civility, the attacks of the past were often just as bold. Our rights have always been under attack, and the Constitution and Bill of Rights have been attacked non-stop since the day they were written. Current events, offensive as they may be, are merely the latest salvo in a non-stop fight. Although the founding fathers did not worry overly much about  offending King George as they fought for our freedom, they were usually careful to speak in a civil manner, if only to retain the moral high ground in their fight for freedom.

[PHenry]

The way I see it, we have a three options - do nothing, engage in the political process, (your imaginations can fill in this). For me, the only option is to engage in the political process in hopes that it works, or at least some what works.

We do have three options and they were laid bare for me by FunFaler at the first event I worked as an instructor. The crowd was, shall we say, of the very self-reliant persuasion. FF knew he needed to reach them on a level they would accept. He offered the following (to the best of my recollection).

A) We do nothing - our current course
B) We fight - totally unrealistic and more horrible than all but a few could imagine
C) We work within the system handed down by the Founders as they intended

Option C is the only viable option. The reason it is failing is because we, as a people, have lost our will to live in Liberty owing to the great effort required. Washington spelled it out with great clarity in his inaugural address. In order for a people to remain free, they must be virtuous. In order for the "sacred lamp of Liberty" to remain lit, the government must be inhabited by humans of solid character and virtue.

"I dwell on this prospect with every satisfaction which an ardent love for my Country can inspire: since there is no truth more thoroughly established, than that there exists in the economy and course of nature, an indissoluble union between virtue and happiness, between duty and advantage, between the genuine maxims of an honest and magnanimous policy, and the solid rewards of public prosperity and felicity: Since we ought to be no less persuaded that the propitious smiles of Heaven, can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right, which Heaven itself has ordained: And since the preservation of the sacred fire of liberty, and the destiny of the Republican model of Government, are justly considered as deeply, perhaps as finally staked, on the experiment entrusted to the hands of the American people."

Trouble is, if the people are of failing character, they will elect people of failing character. The great experiment has failed, because we as a people have failed. Only if we can teach enough Americans the importance of virtue and strong character can we hope to avoid slavery of the very worst sort - the kind that is bought and paid for by the slaves themselves. The qualities required to make Rifleman are very much the same as thems required for a people to remain Free. The Story teaches them the rest.

Well, enough of my silly ranting. Time to bottom line it. Hopefully I have been around long enough to be qualified to offer the following statement:

If you wish to espouse any form or persuasion of modern politics, as a sovereign American citizen, you are of course welcome to do so, but not here, not at events, and not in any way that could possibly be construed to associate with or reflect upon Project Appleseeds. It's not what we do, and if it were to become what we do, it would happen without me, because I would seek a new outlet for discharging my duties to the Founders and to my own posterity. This matter has long ago been debated and decided upon. If I am in error in the previous assessment, I ask that Fred chime in to correct me.

May God bless and keep every Appleseeder.

I will be speaking at a prepper's convention this month and any suggestions on how to avoid modern politics whilst holding the interest of the crowd long enough to succeed in peaking their interest into attending an event would be most welcome via PM. 

In Liberty,
PHenry

[GEmanuel]

I will be speaking at a prepper's convention this month and any suggestions on how to avoid modern politics whilst holding the interest of the crowd long enough to succeed in peaking their interest into attending an event would be most welcome via PM. 

PHenry, why not tell them about Paul Revere the 'Prepper' after all he was cetainly one of the best of his era. Perhaps without telling the story or giving it away prematurely, you could explain how he was prepping to begin a Nation and we are today in a continual state of 'prepping' (or perhaps readiness (symantics)) in order to preserve it.
There is much material surrounding the story to base an interesting presentation on. I think you will find this group most receptive to what we have to say, and offer.
Good luck!

[yellowhousejake]

The problem is, we aren't living 200 years in the past. Usually I understand the reason for the rule, but with the current events and the 2nd Amendment under unprecedented attack - to keep with that rule and to avoid being seen as a gun rights group just to not offend some people is ridiculous. What if the founding fathers were so concerned with offending King George - would we have gained our freedom or would we have remained subjects?

This is not a single issue fight, we are not trying to change a topic on Capitol Hill, we are trying to change the hearts and minds of the population.

If all the politicians stopped monkeying with gun laws would you go back to sleep?

Here is a story for you, one that woke up a friend of mine. Back in the eighties there were some problems with folks buying certain ATVs and promptly killing/maiming themselves on them. A cry went out for regulation, if folks would not read the owners manual and follow common sense rules the product should be banned the cry said. This began to spill over into other things, things this friend thought important, like fast cars.

He showed me an article in some car mag, Car and Driver, Road and Track, I don't remember. The article was an editorial telling the readership to go and purchase a membership in the NRA, even if they did not own a gun. The reason? Because the NRA was the only group fighting to protect the rights of the people (notice he did not say right to own guns). Every one who wanted to live in a country without legislation on horsepower limits, or number of wheels on ATVs, needed to support the NRA because if they lost their battle it would only be a matter of time before restrictor plates under carbs and cut offs on speedometers. He encouraged folks to get involved in legislation, to participate in local government. The writer GOT IT.

Thirty years later we live in a country where you can have pot in your pocket on one coast, but not purchase a 32 oz fountain drink on the other coast. If it's not guns it's something else. How fast your car can go, what your paint smells like, how many calories you eat, what you say and think.

This is bigger than gun rights, this is bigger than soda pop. This is about getting people to take back control of their own destinies and to take their place in the role of a government of the people. I don't want people to get involved because they are focused on a single issue, I want CSPAN to be the most popular channel on TV because Americans care about every piece legislation.

Don't pigeon hole Appleseed into becoming yet one more 2nd Amendment group. Our sights are set farther down range.

YHJ

[Edheler]

Very well said YHJ!

[Nero]

And I will add my 'amen' to Edheler's.   

[Josey Wales]

The problem is, we aren't living 200 years in the past. Usually I understand the reason for the rule, but with the current events and the 2nd Amendment under unprecedented attack - to keep with that rule and to avoid being seen as a gun rights group just to not offend some people is ridiculous. What if the founding fathers were so concerned with offending King George - would we have gained our freedom or would we have remained subjects?

This is not a single issue fight, we are not trying to change a topic on Capitol Hill, we are trying to change the hearts and minds of the population.

If all the politicians stopped monkeying with gun laws would you go back to sleep?

Here is a story for you, one that woke up a friend of mine. Back in the eighties there were some problems with folks buying certain ATVs and promptly killing/maiming themselves on them. A cry went out for regulation, if folks would not read the owners manual and follow common sense rules the product should be banned the cry said. This began to spill over into other things, things this friend thought important, like fast cars.

He showed me an article in some car mag, Car and Driver, Road and Track, I don't remember. The article was an editorial telling the readership to go and purchase a membership in the NRA, even if they did not own a gun. The reason? Because the NRA was the only group fighting to protect the rights of the people (notice he did not say right to own guns). Every one who wanted to live in a country without legislation on horsepower limits, or number of wheels on ATVs, needed to support the NRA because if they lost their battle it would only be a matter of time before restrictor plates under carbs and cut offs on speedometers. He encouraged folks to get involved in legislation, to participate in local government. The writer GOT IT.

Thirty years later we live in a country where you can have pot in your pocket on one coast, but not purchase a 32 oz fountain drink on the other coast. If it's not guns it's something else. How fast your car can go, what your paint smells like, how many calories you eat, what you say and think.

This is bigger than gun rights, this is bigger than soda pop. This is about getting people to take back control of their own destinies and to take their place in the role of a government of the people. I don't want people to get involved because they are focused on a single issue, I want CSPAN to be the most popular channel on TV because Americans care about every piece legislation.

Don't pigeon hole Appleseed into becoming yet one more 2nd Amendment group. Our sights are set farther down range.

YHJ

..oh yes, it is much bigger than guns, but I still love guns and all they stand for... Liberty.....good post yellowhousejake..

[MI-copperhead]

PHenry and yellowhousejake pretty much nailed it for me. I can only add this. Dont ever change the message of Appleseed. If anything, IIT's and Instructors work on your passion for the history you are presenting.
I belong to a militia and had just purchased a almost brand new "big boy rifle" when I decided to attend an Appleseed to improve my shooting (which I discovered to my dismay was abysmal). Although I consider myself a student of history, I was impressed with the way it was presented by the Instructors and IIT's. They made me feel the passion that Revere, Parker, Davis and the others had for the cause of liberty. Since then, having attended several more 'Seeds, my rifle handling had improved but my desire to get others aware of and to an AS has grown more. As one of the "Hats" said "politics is like the weather, you cant change it. We want to change the "climate" by getting people off the couch. " (or words to that effect)

Remember, a great man once said " With Liberty comes great responsabilty"

Just my 2 cents worth.

[Kalamity Kate]

I fully agree with the goal of growing appleseed and teaching about our roots in gaining our liberty.  It would be more effective to spread this message if more people knew you existed.  I heard a short, and unrepeated, ad on a local morning radio show a few days before the February course was to start.  If I had not been a member of the range the ad said was the venue I would never have followed up for more information or signed up for the course.  I mentioned the Appleseed program in the local gun shops while searching for ammunition (at least 8 stores) and while some had heard of you none were aware there was a course about to start or where it might be held.  Some gun store staff had never heard of you and there was no pamphlet or flyer in any of the stores.  One gun shop owner, who is a prominent member of my range, had no idea the event was taking place.  This is not LA, St. Louis or NY City but a small Florida panhandle city.  Why is it you are iinvisible to the local gun community here?  How are we going to sign up new gun owners, as it has been suggested in these posts, if none of them are told of Appleseed by the local gun shops and only learn of it by accident or from a knowing few. Since signing up for the event I have asked gun owners and many others who shoot occasionally if they know about Appleseed.  All of them have answered in the negative.  Why is promotion so difficult in such a small city?
There is a gun rally in a local park this Saturday to protest and demand our local politicians stand up for our second ammendment constitutional rights .  What an opportunity to tell other gun owners new and old there is an opportunity for rifle marksmanship training while learning of our founders and their efforts in starting our nation.  I know I will be spreading the word. Who else will? 

[Transform]

  How are we going to sign up new gun owners, as it has been suggested in these posts, if none of them are told of Appleseed by the local gun shops and only learn of it by accident or from a knowing few.

Thank you for spreading the word! The answer to your question is that we are an all-volunteer effort, so it is precisely the type of word-of-mouth your post describes that is our most effective method of outreach.

Kalamity, consider yourself deputized! Thanks for helping us to spread the word!

[Sly223]

OK My turn,
first you all need to put your faith back where it rightfully belongs in the Lord and not in earthly things, events or programs!
You also need to ask yourself if you want to bring this program under another type of attack; Appleseed is Appleseed!
There are many ways to skin a cat and it is not all Appleseed all the time, but it is something all the time!
PHenry, you sir need to re-evaluate some of the things you neglect now, by you changing I believe you are submitting; this is not how you groomed me for this program. I too feel as though the voting process is now merely a popularity contest, but remember what we preach, it was provided to us in blood and therefore needs to be utilized as though our lives depend on it! Also remember the words of your namesake: "I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience."

To you other two, have you done your all? And not just in this program but in all areas possible? Appleseed is but one stone tossed into one pond. We need to throw as many stones as we can carry into all bodies of water we come to, and not expect a tidal wave that we can see. We are on God's time. Remember it looked a lot more ominous for a far greater period of time.

Gentleman, I love you all and I mean that you are my Brothers in Liberty. Go forth and be fruitful. God bless and help us all, I think it will get much worse before any better. We need to do everything and at the same time know when to take off our AS hats and do other things so as to protect this, the most powerful thing we have in our lives right now, and that is definitely this program! Put yourself out there and get involved in other things but do not jeopardize this program for a swift victory at a protest or something that might better be served by some other organization where the venue is more conducive! Oh yeah! BTW, we three have been talking diversity all day! So Diversify in the spirit of AS but not using AS. Do you get me? With love and not malice Sly
P.S. I am tough but I am fair!