Author Topic: Advanced KD Appleseed  (Read 936 times)

Offline SSG Platz

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Advanced KD Appleseed
« on: July 18, 2012, 09:42:03 PM »
Is there a way, and if so would enough people be intrested in an "Advanced Appleseed" or "KD" Appleseed  where you have to have at least attended an Appleseed before, or preferably shot rifleman. I think it would be cool to do like one or two if these a year at one of the bigger ranges we have a presents at. I would think that it should be limited to people who have at least been to an Appleseed before that way it's less likely they would get lost in the sauce so to speak.

~PlatzOut~

Lord make me fast and accurate. Let my aim be true, and my hands faster than those who would seek to destroy me.  Grant me victory over my foes, and those  that wish to do harm to me and mine. Let not my last thought be if I only had my Gun; and loard if today is truly the day that you take me home, let me die in a pile of empty brass.

Offline lupis42

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Re: Advanced KD Appleseed
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2012, 10:41:46 PM »
Sounds like an instructor KD day...
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Offline yellowhousejake

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Re: Advanced KD Appleseed
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2012, 11:21:57 PM »
We did that one Patriot's Day and it was very successful. Good idea if the interest is there from the students.

The question is why? I can think of a few reasons.

- Second chance to get some IITs.

- An opportunity to increase line attendance, "I gotta go to a regular event before the KD comes up... Whoo Hoo I'm there!"

- A chance to show some fence sitters that what we teach at 25 does in fact work at 400.

We are toying with the idea of doing it again here.

YHJ
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Offline SSG Platz

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Re: Advanced KD Appleseed
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2012, 11:38:59 PM »
Sounds like an instructor KD day...

We are having one of those, in Sept.  and am looking forward to it, it's been a little while now since I've had the chance to shoot past 150, and look forward to doing so. I was just wondering if it was a possibility to do something like this without it being an instructors only thing.

I like the idea of getting new IIT's butt I donno, I just feel that if they were really interested in the program they would have volunteered already. I don't want someone who is going to volunteere just to shoot a KD event, who knows if you will even see them again.

I really like all the KD stuff, but totally understand why it's an option now to teach it or not, when you go into it with shooters 75% of them end up comming out of it more confused and mystified then when they went into it, and I really feel it undoes a lot of what we set out to do as far as taking the magic out of shooting.

But if we had an event where we don't have to worrie about the most basic of things like sling use, and teaching positions and we could take the time that is really due KD and break it down Barney style for fokes they would get a lot more out of it, and wouldnt come out of it with wonderment and confoundment.

~PlatzOut~
Lord make me fast and accurate. Let my aim be true, and my hands faster than those who would seek to destroy me.  Grant me victory over my foes, and those  that wish to do harm to me and mine. Let not my last thought be if I only had my Gun; and loard if today is truly the day that you take me home, let me die in a pile of empty brass.

Offline yellowhousejake

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Re: Advanced KD Appleseed
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2012, 09:07:46 AM »
Sounds like an instructor KD day...

I really like all the KD stuff, but totally understand why it's an option now to teach it or not, when you go into it with shooters 75% of them end up comming out of it more confused and mystified then when they went into it, and I really feel it undoes a lot of what we set out to do as far as taking the magic out of shooting.

Then it's time to investigate your COF for KD. KD should  re-enforce the POI and prove it, not undo the lessons. If your KD time is confusing students it is not being taught correctly. It's not KD's fault, it's the instruction.

But if we had an event where we don't have to worrie about the most basic of things like sling use, and teaching positions and we could take the time that is really due KD and break it down Barney style for fokes they would get a lot more out of it, and wouldnt come out of it with wonderment and confoundment.

~PlatzOut~

You always have to worry about the most fundamental things like sling usage, especially at KD. This stuff ain't rocket science, it's simple basic fundamentals, and should be taught as such. Nothing here you can't teach a 10 year old, we've all done it. That is why KD is not a option, if you got 50 yards or more it needs to be taught.

YHJ
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Offline yellowhousejake

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Re: Advanced KD Appleseed
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2012, 09:12:28 AM »
!0 years old, ringing 100 yard steel after a 20 minute KD lesson. The next time she showed up at this range she had her come ups written down already for 100 yards. She made rifleman that trip as well.



KD is simple, KD is fun, KD is for everyone, KD needs to be taught.

YHJ
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Offline Mudcat

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Re: Advanced KD Appleseed
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2012, 09:21:39 AM »
We just did a KD day last weekend in KY for prior attendees. It was well received and a lot was learned that we only brush over in a regular Appleseed.
You can read about it in the AAR/IAAR. I would be happy to answer any questions.
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Offline Spartan

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Re: Advanced KD Appleseed
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2012, 09:29:23 AM »
  IMHO, we should teach KD at all events and shoot KD at every event that has more than a 25 yard range. 
When we shoot at some ranges that have a 400-600 yard capacity we do conduct KD all day long on the
 second day and that works well.  IE, When we shoot at Jericho, VT that works well.  When we shoot at
New Bremen, NY and have the right mix of instructors "Redhats", we operate the KD range concurrent with
the 25 yard range range on the second day.  Taking previous students and rotating instructors on Sunday
morning and taking the newer students after the KD class on Sunday.
I'm sure SGTROCK does a similar job at Burlington Flats, NY.
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Offline SSG Platz

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Re: Advanced KD Appleseed
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2012, 10:19:18 AM »
It's easy to explain something to someone then have them put it to use, but when you try to explain concepts to people
And then send them off to shoot another AQT they tend to get lost in the sauce so to speak. The issue is here there is only
One range that we occupy that I know of that has the facilities to do any kind of KD event like it should be, there are a
Couple of ranges that have 100 yards, and from time to time they are used, but even 100 yards isn't going to help people
With their come ups.  Also I don't have the side of a clif to shoot off of either so when people learn that to shoot up or down
Hill they have to take into account t the angle of the bullet it ends up breaking down aim lower on the target then you think
You should. And wind and marrage forget about it. It's like your speaking Greek to them. Front posts is fun info but most
People bring a 10-22 around here anyway, so if you don't have someone with an sks or an AR that ends up getting lost on
Them as well.  I opt to not waste an hour of their time with stuff that they dont understand and do not get to put into practice,
At least not around here,  and let them shoot more AQT's

I think students would get more out of it if we had an event where all we had to do was review the basics then move on to teaching
The more advanced stuff that really deserves more time than what we can give it at a normal Appleseed

~PlatzOut~
Lord make me fast and accurate. Let my aim be true, and my hands faster than those who would seek to destroy me.  Grant me victory over my foes, and those  that wish to do harm to me and mine. Let not my last thought be if I only had my Gun; and loard if today is truly the day that you take me home, let me die in a pile of empty brass.

Offline Spartan

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Re: Advanced KD Appleseed
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2012, 10:50:31 AM »
If you make them all shoot at 100 yards with a .22LR they will all have to take into account their come ups and
work on the wind.  Granted if they shoot a 223/5.56 at 100 yards they do not have to work at it nearly as much as
 with the .22LR.  They will have to apply the same principles as with a centerfire rifle at distance.
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Offline R1SGx2

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Re: Advanced KD Appleseed
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2012, 12:25:21 PM »
The KD class is a must, as with many first time students attending an AS they are not prepared to shoot KD, and in cases after 2, 3 or 4 AS's. You will know who they are.

I have to Echo Spartans comments, Sunday after the KD class, provided I am working a range that has KD distance and Cadre to do it, we will transition people thru the distances at that range.

You have to look at the resource's on hand, think of hip pocket training, use what you have and apply imagination.

As Mudcat indicated, a KD day or two would serve as a mini RBC, you will find more instructors wanting to shoot it as well as they too need trigger time, Sgt Rock has some nice steel plates on hangers for it.
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Offline sgtrock

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Re: Advanced KD Appleseed
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2012, 12:51:32 PM »
100 yds is better than nothing, if a range is limited, I'll start off with KD for .22Lr, give them a brief on the KD class, and have them shoot and do IMC, it can still teach them how to work the math and the sights/scope to achieve results.

Granted, a full blown KD Day or KD weekend is more desirable, but we can make do with what we have, at least they know its possible to a lot of work at distance with a .22Lr...

As has been mentioned,,, KD must be taught, otherwise people will say that "we weren't taught anything about shooting past 25m

Burlington Flats is set up nice, we run 2 ranges at once, KD is all day Sunday, while the 25m is going as well,

Lewistown, PA is run the same way, as long as you have a redhat at both sites, you are good to go.

SSG Platz
I understand were you are coming from, I really enjoy having a high speed, low drag line but its not always the case,,,,

Having the facilities to shoot in every conceivable situation is rather difficult, I really try to make it exciting for them to want to try it on their own when they get home, Its like the history we teach/present, enthusiasm goes a long way at keeping  them hungry for more.

The Lewistown KD event in Sept will be a very enjoyable class to be at, with a 1000yd range we will have a great opportunity to hone our teaching skills, as for shooting up and down hill extremes there are few places to train for that,,, that I know of anyway or access to.

Hope this helps,,, I'll see you on the range in PA 01 SEP

sgtrock
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 12:53:18 PM by sgtrock »

Offline SSG Platz

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Re: Advanced KD Appleseed
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2012, 12:56:04 PM »
I fear we are drifting, I didn't want to get into a discussion on wether you should teach KD at a normal Appleseed, the fact of the matter on that is that in pa we don't have access to anything other than 25y/m at most ranges. The intent was to get feed back as to a "advanced Appleseed" where we could limit the registration maybe to people who have already shot rifleman score, that way we can give all the advanced stuff like KD, angle consigns, Mils, range estimation, target detection, and wind estimation can get the time it really disearves. As I've stated before when you explain these things to people and they don't get the chance to see it first hand it seems to get lost on them. 100 y/m with a .22 would be great but we don't have that at most of the venues that I attend. So I would really like to see something at a place like Lewistown where you have all the elements there. You have 1000 yard range that goes up the side of a mountain, and if all we have to do is spend an hour to review slings, positions, and NPoA at the beginning of the day I feel that students would get more out of it than they currently do.

I think it would be awesome to have 4 events a year set aside for this at this range or one like it, 2 for instructors only and 2 for people who have previously shot a rifleman's score, or maybe attended at least 2 Appleseed events or a boot camp. 
Lord make me fast and accurate. Let my aim be true, and my hands faster than those who would seek to destroy me.  Grant me victory over my foes, and those  that wish to do harm to me and mine. Let not my last thought be if I only had my Gun; and loard if today is truly the day that you take me home, let me die in a pile of empty brass.

Offline sgtrock

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Re: Advanced KD Appleseed
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2012, 01:04:57 PM »
If the KD event is listed to the public, you get anyone,
if the KD event is listed in the instructor forum you get instructors only,,,

Planning  of what you want to do is key.

sgtrock 

Offline SSG Platz

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Re: Advanced KD Appleseed
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2012, 01:26:11 PM »
I get that, but if you call it an Advanced Apeseed and put on the info page requirements are must have attended at least 2 events or one boot camp you might have a person or two try to sneak in but you will be able to tell who those people are quickly and then it's up to the shoot boss to deal with them from there, just an idea

~PlatzOut~
Lord make me fast and accurate. Let my aim be true, and my hands faster than those who would seek to destroy me.  Grant me victory over my foes, and those  that wish to do harm to me and mine. Let not my last thought be if I only had my Gun; and loard if today is truly the day that you take me home, let me die in a pile of empty brass.

Offline lupis42

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Re: Advanced KD Appleseed
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2012, 02:00:11 PM »
The intent was to get feed back as to a "advanced Appleseed" where we could limit the registration maybe to people who have already shot rifleman score, that way we can give all the advanced stuff like KD, angle consigns, Mils, range estimation, target detection, and wind estimation can get the time it really disearves.

As far as feedback on that idea:  it's not that different from an Instructor KD day, or the Sunday at a KD range like Jericho, or the second half of an RBC.  That doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done, just that I (and I suspect others) are not seeing why you couldn't do one of the aforementioned events, which are common? 
In particular, why not simply have an Appleseed at that range, and spend almost all of Sunday on KD?  If it has a separate 25m, you could split your shooters up by group size after the morning Redcoat, and leave those still grouping at 8+MOA at the 25m to work on basics (also giving an SBIT and some IITs extra chances to get practice) while the more accurate shooters proceed to the KD range...

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Offline SSG Platz

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Re: Advanced KD Appleseed
« Reply #16 on: July 19, 2012, 03:46:47 PM »
I don't run that range, and have never been even been there I've only heard stories about how Awsome it is. Of the ranges I go to two are 25M and one is 50 feet. And one has 300, but I think there is something with that one, don't know if it has to do with rules or the fact that you have to walk the whole thing if you want to place targets but I've been there twice now and have not utilized anything other than 25.

I honestly don't know why we don't have Appleseed I, II, and III. The first could be rifle familiarization, to many times do I see people who have no idea how to use their gear, and have no idea how to ride their rifle, 2 could be what we consider a normal Appleseed, and three talk about all the advanced stuff.

~PlatzOut~
Lord make me fast and accurate. Let my aim be true, and my hands faster than those who would seek to destroy me.  Grant me victory over my foes, and those  that wish to do harm to me and mine. Let not my last thought be if I only had my Gun; and loard if today is truly the day that you take me home, let me die in a pile of empty brass.

Offline yellowhousejake

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Re: Advanced KD Appleseed
« Reply #17 on: July 19, 2012, 07:29:55 PM »
My idea of Appleseed 1, 2, and 3 is like this.

1) Go to an Appleseed.
2) Go to another Appleseed bringing a friend, and score rifleman.
3) Go to another Appleseed with new friend, and a PC0 in your hand.

Calculating the drop of a 174gr 7.62 round in a 25 degree uphill shot is absolutely worthless in a voting booth.

 O0

YHJ
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Offline SSG Platz

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Re: Advanced KD Appleseed
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2012, 02:01:11 AM »
I guess everyone had their own unique reason for doing this, different ideas but the same purpose is not a bad thing. In the end I just want to see Appleseed succeed.

~PlatzOut~

Lord make me fast and accurate. Let my aim be true, and my hands faster than those who would seek to destroy me.  Grant me victory over my foes, and those  that wish to do harm to me and mine. Let not my last thought be if I only had my Gun; and loard if today is truly the day that you take me home, let me die in a pile of empty brass.