Author Topic: First Shoot in Sept- advice needed  (Read 3197 times)

trow

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First Shoot in Sept- advice needed
« on: May 02, 2012, 03:26:52 PM »
Hey all-

Myself and my fiance have signed up to attend our first shoot in September 2012. We're definitely looking forward to the history component and embarrassingly admit we don't know much. We're also very new to shooting (her more so than me) and I had a couple of questions about the equipment set up.

I've recently purchased an AR-15 and figured I would use it for the weekend. I figured that I'll pick up a .22 so we each have a rifle and some variety. Or do you all think that we should both have an LTR and keep my AR at home? I'm basically torn about buying a bunch of .223 ammo or just buying two Ruger 10/22's or similar. And I suppose I'd rather not buy duplicates of anything for the sake of safe space/ cost/ etc.

Also- if I use my AR is it okay to this sort of sling: http://www.vikingtactics.com/videos/pop-instr_video1_sling.html? Or should I use a strict surplus style sling? And I'm not asking to be "tacticool" but would like to prevent duplicate items and spending if possible.

And lastly, my vision sort of sucks because my glasses frames (while trendy) don't seem to work well with my iron sights. [added note] It might not be my glasses and more so my ignorance on shooting stances/ form. I'd rather learn how to really use my iron sights but wondering if I should pick up a scope in case? Is a scope worthwhile to have for these events or should I do the first weekend with out?

Thanks!

« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 03:33:16 PM by trow »

Offline Edheler

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Re: First Shoot in Sept- advice needed
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2012, 04:02:13 PM »
Glad you both signed up for a shoot! Just curious, why are you waiting until September? Are you waiting for an event that is closer to home?

You will need 350-450 rounds of ammo per rifle for the weekend. I would let that guide your decisions as to what rifles to bring and or use. I certainly would bring the AR-15 and shoot it some of the time at the very least.

As for slings, we only teach how to use the GI Web Sling. You can bring whatever sling you want though. :) You can typically find GI Web Slings out on the net for less than $15 or at local gun shows for even less. (We have them in the Appleseed Store for $12.50 plus shipping and handling, but don't ship to North Carolina so it might not be an option for you.)

On many AR-15's it's difficult to get a proper cheek weld and have a proper sight picture without building up the stock a bit. I am sure an instructor at the Appleseed you're going to will be able to help you with that. (Many of us use foam pipe insulation and attach it to the buttstock with vetrap if you want to try it at home.) If your corrected vision with glasses is near normal you'll likely be just fine with the iron sights.

Another curiosity, did you really like a late-90's game called Myth? (Just guessing from your handle.)
« Last Edit: May 02, 2012, 04:13:05 PM by Edheler »
"While the people have property, arms in their hands, and only a spark of noble spirit, the most corrupt Congress must be mad to form any project of tyranny." Rev. Nicholas Collin (1745-1831) Fayetteville Gazette (N.C.), October 12, 1789

trow

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Re: First Shoot in Sept- advice needed
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2012, 04:35:46 PM »
Thanks for the response! September works best due to some work projects. We came close to some of the events in May but couldn't make it work. Both of us live in Raleigh so the Ramseur location is close enough. Though I noticed on the ticket registration the shoot is Sat- Monday? What tends to go down on the third day?

I saw on the sight to plan for 450- 500 rounds.  I suppose it makes sense to bring my AR and also pick a .22 Ruger. If the instructors teach using the GI Web Sling then I'll use one of those. I suppose I can also switch slings- do the shooting concepts transfer universally across slings and rifles? I had no idea about the foam pipes to beef up the buttstock. Basically- when I look down my iron sights my eyes seem to overshoot my glasses frames or just catch the rim of the top frames making the irons blurry.

And.. I totally forgot about the Myth! I think I might have played it on the family PC growing up. When I created my username the name just popped into my head and I thought I'd go with it. Good catch!

trow

Offline 2 clicks low

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Re: First Shoot in Sept- advice needed
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2012, 05:11:55 PM »
From your discription you need to build up your stock to raise your "cheek weld" aligning your eyes with the sights.

Materials needed:
Vet Wrap 4" wide, any color available from farm supply store or pet store. About $3
Foam pipe insulation 3/4" pipe available from Home Depot About $2

Cut a 4" piece of foam and place it on the stock under your cheek. Does it bring your eye up enough to see the sights streight on? If not, does 2 pieces do it?
When you get the right hight, use the vet wrap to secure it. 1 or 2 times around is plenty.

Let us know how it works out.
2cl

Thanks for the response! September works best due to some work projects. We came close to some of the events in May but couldn't make it work. Both of us live in Raleigh so the Ramseur location is close enough. Though I noticed on the ticket registration the shoot is Sat- Monday? What tends to go down on the third day?

I saw on the sight to plan for 450- 500 rounds.  I suppose it makes sense to bring my AR and also pick a .22 Ruger. If the instructors teach using the GI Web Sling then I'll use one of those. I suppose I can also switch slings- do the shooting concepts transfer universally across slings and rifles? I had no idea about the foam pipes to beef up the buttstock. Basically- when I look down my iron sights my eyes seem to overshoot my glasses frames or just catch the rim of the top frames making the irons blurry.

And.. I totally forgot about the Myth! I think I might have played it on the family PC growing up. When I created my username the name just popped into my head and I thought I'd go with it. Good catch!

trow
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Offline Edheler

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Re: First Shoot in Sept- advice needed
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2012, 05:40:29 PM »
It looks like your event is a special 3-day Appleseed over Labor Day weekend. The third day will be more shooting! ^:)^

You will need more ammo for a 3-day event. Every shoot boss is different and 450-500 rounds is a bit more of a conservative estimate than mine for a 2 day event. A conservative estimate for a 3-day event would be 700-800 rounds. You shoot more on Sunday, and a third day would be like an extra Sunday.

Make sure your sling looks like the one on the Appleseed store. http://www.appleseedstore.flyingcart.com/?p=detail&pid=10 I will post a picture when I get home which will be a bit easier to understand. The standard sling for AR-15 style rifles isn't what you want. Many of the concepts we teach transfer between many types of slings but some slings are seemingly only made to help you schlep your rifle around and not to assist the shooter when shooting.

I tend to push my glasses up my nose as far as I can to help solve the same problem. I did have to build up my stock a bit on my AR-15 to get my eye in alignment with my sights though. (2 clicks low's description of the process is better and more complete than mine for building up the stock.)

Myth is one of my all-time favorite games. :)
"While the people have property, arms in their hands, and only a spark of noble spirit, the most corrupt Congress must be mad to form any project of tyranny." Rev. Nicholas Collin (1745-1831) Fayetteville Gazette (N.C.), October 12, 1789

Offline AZRedhawk44

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Re: First Shoot in Sept- advice needed
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2012, 01:14:31 AM »


I saw on the sight to plan for 450- 500 rounds.  I suppose it makes sense to bring my AR and also pick a .22 Ruger. If the instructors teach using the GI Web Sling then I'll use one of those. I suppose I can also switch slings- do the shooting concepts transfer universally across slings and rifles?



That Viking sling is a variation on the 2 point sling design, but intended for side-mount on the rifle rather than bottom-mount as most conventional slings are designed.

Appleseed teaches sling techniques that focus upon bottom-mount philosophies of slings.  Our goal in sling usage is to obtain stability in body position and recoil management from the sling.  Appleseed will not be teaching you about weapons transitions, nor about methods to carry your rifle with the sling. 

Side-mount slings have come about due to an increase in MOUT (mobile operations in urban terrain) and a decrease in need for demonstrated field marksmanship at intermediate distances (~200 to ~600 yards).

That being said, that sling is still useful for 2 out of the 3 sling techniques we teach.

And any Appleseed instructor worth his salt, when you show up with it, will improvise/adapt/overcome and make the most of the weekend with what you show up with.

You will miss out on the loop sling, however, if you choose to come with the Viking Tactics sling rather than a conventional cheap USGI cotton web sling.  Or a 1907 style leather sling.

If you show up with that sling, please keep in mind that the techniques shown in that video are for MOUT combat primarily, or patrol and weapons transitions.  We will be teaching you marksmanship.  Which are sometimes exclusive of one-another.  And sometimes not.  Our techniques WILL be different than what is shown in that video.  Keep an open mind, learn what we show you, and if you want to learn more, go to a class that focuses upon carbine defensive use or MOUT/CQB techniques.  But only after you master the marksmanship fundamentals that we present, first.  Build a solid foundation with Appleseed.



Offline Edheler

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Re: First Shoot in Sept- advice needed
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2012, 09:58:44 AM »
Here are the pictures I said I would post of a GI Web Sling:

On the far right of this sling is an Uncle Mike's Swivel which isn't a part of the sling.



Same sling turned upside down:


« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 10:01:28 AM by Edheler »
"While the people have property, arms in their hands, and only a spark of noble spirit, the most corrupt Congress must be mad to form any project of tyranny." Rev. Nicholas Collin (1745-1831) Fayetteville Gazette (N.C.), October 12, 1789

Offline SSG Platz

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Re: First Shoot in Sept- advice needed
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2012, 10:22:46 AM »
If you want a training rifle that is a similar platform as your AR I would suggest a S&W M&P 15-22 that way when you tradition from one platform to another you don't have to learn a whole new rifle, it will feel familure.

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Lord make me fast and accurate. Let my aim be true, and my hands faster than those who would seek to destroy me.  Grant me victory over my foes, and those  that wish to do harm to me and mine. Let not my last thought be if I only had my Gun; and loard if today is truly the day that you take me home, let me die in a pile of empty brass.

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Re: First Shoot in Sept- advice needed
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2012, 10:31:13 AM »
Trow,


Welcome to the NC forum!  There are several instructors near Raleigh.  I live in the Wake Forest area and work downtown.  You have had some good input from the other instructors and there is no need to rehash what they have offered.  The web sling can be picked up for < $15 (and the gun show is this weekend).  I'll be there sportin' my AS shirt/hat probably on Sat.


My wife jokes that I must really love her because I'm teaching her how to shoot, I hope your fiance recognizes the same!


If there is anything I can do to help on the AS trail please PM me.


Cheers,


Sadman

trow

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Re: First Shoot in Sept- advice needed
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2012, 01:03:08 PM »
Hey all-

Thanks for all the responses and feedback. It sounds like I should just quit being cheap and pick up the standard GI Web sling. I definitely want to use what will be most effective for learning/ application. This has all been really helpful! I'm sure I'll have questions along the way and appreciate the help. And I'll check back in on the cheek weld. I don't know when I'm getting out to the range next- I usually goto the indoor Wake County center.

Man I am so psyched!

trow

trow

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Re: First Shoot in Sept- advice needed
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2012, 11:39:26 AM »
Hey gang-

One more noob question for you all. What would I need for the sling attachments for my AR?
This is the rifle I purchased: http://www.usamade-ar15parts.com/PhotoGallery.asp?ProductCode=CQB-PC.

I'm a bit confused with the different sling mounting options? It looks as if that swivel on the bottom of the front rail is all I need? Thanks again- and appreciate all the assistance. Gotta love being the new guy asking tons of questions haha.

-trow

Offline SSG Platz

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Re: First Shoot in Sept- advice needed
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2012, 02:38:20 AM »
Looks like you have the sling swivel so looks like all you need is the QD go with the bigger one 1&1/4" both the GI and 1904 slings both fit nicely in it.

~PlatzOut~
Lord make me fast and accurate. Let my aim be true, and my hands faster than those who would seek to destroy me.  Grant me victory over my foes, and those  that wish to do harm to me and mine. Let not my last thought be if I only had my Gun; and loard if today is truly the day that you take me home, let me die in a pile of empty brass.

Offline nyrasgt

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Re: First Shoot in Sept- advice needed
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2012, 08:13:06 AM »
tr,
   if you're looking for a front 1.25" swivel to fit on the rail of a typical AR15 platform, Cheaper Thn Dirt
(www.CheaperThanDirt.com ) has a quick detach swivel that will fit any Picatinny or Weaver rail (so fits any AR15 w.rail, as well as the S&W M&P 15-22 - which only comes w. rear sling attachment)
# is ARR-270, priceis $11.97.   Works - have one on my M&P15-22.
Excelsior,
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Offline didactic

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Re: First Shoot in Sept- advice needed
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2012, 09:38:33 AM »
Just to clarify, to use a loop sling you need only the front attachment.

To use a "hasty" sling you need both an attachment on the fore-end and one near the toe of the buttstock.

Either setup will assist steadiness in all positions, but conventional wisdom says a loop sling helps MORE in sitting and prone, while a hasty sling helps MORE in standing.  Your mileage certainly may vary.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2012, 10:40:32 AM by didactic »
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Offline Bob Owens

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Re: First Shoot in Sept- advice needed
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2012, 09:41:28 AM »
A big "+1" to what diadactic just said about slings.

As for iron sights vs. scopes, there are plenty of shooters with corrected vision that shoot just fine with iron sights. Like everything, it seems to be a matter of practice, and we'll work with you no matter what you decide to bring.

You brought up the question of two LTRs versus the LTR for her and an AR for you. There is a third option.

They do make .22 LR conversion units to fit ARs, which enables you to use the same weapon and shoot far cheaper. I'd suggest doing some research and see if that is an option you may be interested in pursuing. I have a unit that I've fired a few hundred rounds through without issue. Other people have reported far less consistent results, so make sure you do your homework.

I just did my first AS this spring and had a wonderful time. I suspect that you and your fiance will as well.
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trow

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Re: First Shoot in Sept- advice needed
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2012, 12:29:55 PM »
Hey Bob-

Thanks for the reminder about a .22 conversion! That definitely something I should look into. Once I get my the sling mounts and sling Ill turn my eye towards a conversion kit. I know I've ready divided opinions in the past-- lots of variables w the kit, rifle, and ammo type it seems.

I'm psyched!!

Offline hawkeye

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Re: First Shoot in Sept- advice needed
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2012, 03:58:39 PM »
Buy a 10/22 and set it up with tech sights and a USGI sling, bring 500 to 600 rounds of .22. Bring your AR with a USGI sling to learn the use of the sling. For Saturday we will loan you a 10/22 to use as long as you need it that weekend. Sunday and Monday the 500 yard line will be set up with full distant AQTs, pop up targets, an gongs, lots of gongs. You can shoot AQTs at 25 yards or full distant, there are plenty of instructors more than willing to help you out just ask. You will not be disappointed as long as you are willing to learn.
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Offline blume357

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Re: First Shoot in Sept- advice needed
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2012, 06:33:17 AM »
the problem with a basic conversion kit on an AR is the barrel is not right for the 22lr and you will not be very accurate unless you change the barrel over too, and that is a big deal....   personally, I would either just get a dedicated 22lr in something close to the AR platform or keep it simple and get a 10/22 and put tech sights on it.

waiting until Sept is a good idea in my opinion...  too hot  in the Summer.... it will probably still be hot in Sept.

The biggest challenge I've found with an Appleseed is I'm not nearly as limber as I used to be and that is what makes it so hard to get all the way through the AQT....  So, exercise and get in shape if need be.
Made rifleman on my first practice AQT
then went down hill from there......

Offline Kodiak

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Re: First Shoot in Sept- advice needed
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2012, 01:06:17 PM »
the problem with a basic conversion kit on an AR is the barrel is not right for the 22lr and you will not be very accurate unless you change the barrel over too, and that is a big deal....   personally, I would either just get a dedicated 22lr in something close to the AR platform or keep it simple and get a 10/22 and put tech sights on it.

waiting until Sept is a good idea in my opinion...  too hot  in the Summer.... it will probably still be hot in Sept.

The biggest challenge I've found with an Appleseed is I'm not nearly as limber as I used to be and that is what makes it so hard to get all the way through the AQT....  So, exercise and get in shape if need be.
One other idea would be to purchase a dedicated upper in .22 LR. Be aware though that a .22 LR upper can be almost as much as a S&W M&P 15-22.

trow

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Re: First Shoot in Sept- advice needed
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2012, 08:23:50 PM »
Hey gang-

I was able to pick up a sling attachment for the swivel. I also picked up a cheap sling to try out. Would this rig be sufficient for my September shoot? I can't easily take the front piece off w/ out another adapter. Pics attached--

Offline Sly223

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Re: First Shoot in Sept- advice needed
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2012, 08:44:39 PM »
Loose the vertical forward grip.
The rest is workable for your fist AS.
In my AR conversion kit it does what it needs to at 25m,I just have to send a 1200fps ammo to get them to cycle correctly,The drop in Accuracy is very negligible.
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trow

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Re: First Shoot in Sept- advice needed
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2012, 09:24:48 PM »
Right good call on the vertical for grip. No need for the eotech either?

Offline Sly223

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Re: First Shoot in Sept- advice needed
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2012, 09:33:00 PM »
BTW, Good Luck!
My first AS we brought another couple and are now closer to them than we ever would have thought.
You will receive many Brothers and Sisters in liberty,
 Bottom line bring someone you know,
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trow

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Re: First Shoot in Sept- advice needed
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2012, 08:16:21 PM »
My fiance picked up her 10/22 (target model) and is psyched!! I suppose now she needs the tech sites til she's good to go? I started shooting a few months back. One night while cleaning out my rifle I mentioned that there was something uniquely American about owning  a rifle but that I couldn't quite explain it. Something I couldn't quite explain or recall past association to. I think she feels the same too.. both eager to learn. Hope to see you all at a shoot sometime!

Offline Charles McKinley

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Re: First Shoot in Sept- advice needed
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2012, 10:30:10 PM »
If you are going to have the Eotech on the AR normally bring it.  Train as you will fight.  What good is the fancy sight if you don't know how to use it.

The instructors will help you get it on target and help you get the most out of it.

Did you contact Hawkeye about barrowing a .22 for Saturday.  I hate to see you use expensive ammo (.223 30-40 cents a shot vs .22 LR 3-4 cents a shot) on Saturday just getting settled in.

The skills are transferable.  A good 22 is fun to shoot and not break the bank and keep your skills sharp.  I use an air gun to cut the cost even more and not have to use hearing protection.

Enjoy the learning process and WELCOME!
Last evening, it occurred to me that when a defender of Liberty is called home, their load lands upon the shoulders of the defenders left behind. Just as the Founders did their duty for Liberty, every subsequent generation must continue their work lest Liberty perish. As there is no way for the remaining adults to take on the work of those that die, we must pass the ideals and duties on to the children. -PHenery

Offline Sly223

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Re: First Shoot in Sept- advice needed
« Reply #25 on: June 30, 2012, 09:15:46 AM »
Also know this A Women knows what she does not know therefor will be a very good student, the element of fear is still prevalent as a result when we did our first AS together husband and wife, she dusted me!
I shot expert in the Army and thought I was all that!
She qualified first as she always brought a teachable attitude and quickly applied lessons learned while I was still trying to figure out why I was good twenty years ago and now struggling.
I refused all new instruction,
 listen to how I made myself Suffer from being hard headed.After my wife took up the orange hat and got to IIT2,I one day decided to bring that one thing I was missing (that teachable Attitude)Sat. like all other AS events I tuned everyone out and had a crappy performance. Finally I was broken in every way confidence,Physically etc...Sunday, I took a different mind set,My life has benefited in every way! :slap:
Now faced with the Fact that it took me 8 AS to qualify.What to do to prove to fellow Americans that I am not a Buffoon! My wife was an IIT2,so in order to surpass her I distracted her from the Trail for 9 months! ^:)^
As a result it took her out of the AS picture for Almost Two years!
 Now I am a Shoot Boss, and she is re qualifying under Me! >:D
Let me also add this our Marrage was on the rocks,I was a raging beast,now All is right with the World.
Take the Rifleman pledge to heart and you will embark on a self improvement course that will Amaze even yourself!
BTW,I tell my students my wife & I respect each other out to about 650yrds. **)
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trow

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Re: First Shoot in Sept- advice needed
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2012, 09:54:02 AM »
lol awesome post Sly!

Quick question for you all: my fiance's Ruger is the 10/22T or Target model. I didn't even think about sight mounting and all that. It looks like our options are the front sight conversion kit from  Tech Sights or a scope. She's leaning more towards a scope which I understand.

It seems there are tons of awesome rimfire scopes on the market for casual shooting. Are there any models that you all KNOW will survive a weekend at Appleseed and continue to after? Lots of reviews online mention the Simmons scopes breaking after a lot of rounds. Also-- any recommendations for mounting- rings, rail system, all that good stuff?

-trow

Offline Edheler

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Re: First Shoot in Sept- advice needed
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2012, 10:44:08 AM »
I use a Nikon Prostaff 4x32 on my Ruger and it is a great scope. It usually costs $120-130 but I got mine new for $80. If you're patient you should be able to get that sort of price for it.

http://www.nikonhunting.com/products/riflescopes/prostaff/4x32_Rimfire_Nikoplex/6718

Edit: Just learned that my model is now a "classic." So, search for one used. :)
« Last Edit: July 05, 2012, 10:46:38 AM by Edheler »
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Offline George Hacker

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Re: First Shoot in Sept- advice needed
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2012, 10:48:33 AM »
Quick question for you all: my fiance's Ruger is the 10/22T or Target model. I didn't even think about sight mounting and all that. It looks like our options are the front sight conversion kit from  Tech Sights or a scope. She's leaning more towards a scope which I understand.

It seems there are tons of awesome rimfire scopes on the market for casual shooting. Are there any models that you all KNOW will survive a weekend at Appleseed and continue to after? Lots of reviews online mention the Simmons scopes breaking after a lot of rounds. Also-- any recommendations for mounting- rings, rail system, all that good stuff?
trow,

I mounted a cheap 4x rimfire/air rifle scope on my Ruger 10/22 (I think it cost me around $40 and it had built-in rings).  Shot rifleman with it a year ago and continue to use it to this day.  I have another 10/22 with TechSights that I prefer to shoot at 25 meters.  No need to pay a lot of $$$ to get something fancy.

- ShadowMan
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Offline Sly223

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Re: First Shoot in Sept- advice needed
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2012, 11:10:57 AM »
The more low profile the rings the better!
BSA's are tough and cheap!
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