Author Topic: Why we discuss 'squibs' during the safety briefing  (Read 4143 times)

Offline JustJeff

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Your version of "ineffective" does not necessarily reflect the truth....
Having been "ineffectively" taught to the Rifleman Standard and having been "ineffectively" taught to teach others to the Rifleman Standard, I believe I prefer the "ineffective" over the other choice.

Offline George Hacker

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Re: Why we discuss 'squibs' during the safety briefing
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2012, 11:54:21 AM »
And have shooters wear safety glasses.  Safety, safety, safety.
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Offline 2 clicks low

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Re: Why we discuss 'squibs' during the safety briefing
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2012, 12:14:18 PM »
And have shooters wear safety glasses.  Safety, safety, safety.

Appleseed does not require adlults to wear safety glasses. Only if the host range requires it.
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Offline JustJeff

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Re: Why we discuss 'squibs' during the safety briefing
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2012, 01:06:54 PM »
And have shooters wear safety glasses.  Safety, safety, safety.

Appleseed does not require adlults to wear safety glasses. Only if the host range requires it.
2cl

On any line I've worked in the past, ALL shooters have been required to have 'eyes and ears' on; regardless of age or range policy.  I believe it's a SB thing, as in all the SB's I've worked for have required it.
Your version of "ineffective" does not necessarily reflect the truth....
Having been "ineffectively" taught to the Rifleman Standard and having been "ineffectively" taught to teach others to the Rifleman Standard, I believe I prefer the "ineffective" over the other choice.

Offline DesertDog

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Re: Why we discuss 'squibs' during the safety briefing
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2012, 04:09:34 PM »
And have shooters wear safety glasses.  Safety, safety, safety.

Appleseed does not require adlults to wear safety glasses. Only if the host range requires it.
2cl

I've never heard that.  If it was policy, I'd still make them wear eye protection.
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Offline oladcock

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Re: Why we discuss 'squibs' during the safety briefing
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2012, 04:16:02 PM »
It's kind of like hunter ed here in NM, hunter orange isn't "required" either, but we don't tell them that....O.L.
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Offline Rocket Man

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Re: Why we discuss 'squibs' during the safety briefing
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2012, 04:49:04 PM »
On any line I've worked in the past, ALL shooters have been required to have 'eyes and ears' on; regardless of age or range policy.  I believe it's a SB thing, as in all the SB's I've worked for have required it.

That's my understanding as well.  On my line, wear your eye pro.  I have a couple of spares if you forgot yours.

I've personally seen too many .22 LR brass failures, and been overshot by too many jokers with shotguns a couple of bays over, to accept naked eyeballs.  That's just how it is.
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Offline Jerry Hall

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Re: Why we discuss 'squibs' during the safety briefing
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2012, 07:24:08 PM »
As I was only issued two(2) eyes and replacements are not readily available....
Safety Glasses are cheap!  ++) O0 #)
« Last Edit: January 02, 2012, 07:25:50 PM by Jerry Hall »
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Offline Johnnyappleseed

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Re: Why we discuss 'squibs' during the safety briefing
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2012, 08:10:10 PM »

Thanx for starting this thread and posting the you tube video O0
It looked like the shooter rode the bolt forward , although it sounded closed .

I have seen horrible results with a gun firing when the bolt was not fully closed .
This case was probably a squib , although I did not hear even a slight pop .
i would agree squibs should be fully understood before live fire -- I will make a note to have TPI at future shoots. along with a caution of riding a bolt forward .
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Offline dart67eb

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Re: Why we discuss 'squibs' during the safety briefing
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2012, 08:58:06 PM »
I'm with you.  I didn't hear the squib.  It looks like an out of battery.


Thanx for starting this thread and posting the you tube video O0
It looked like the shooter rode the bolt forward , although it sounded closed .

I have seen horrible results with a gun firing when the bolt was not fully closed .
This case was probably a squib , although I did not hear even a slight pop .
i would agree squibs should be fully understood before live fire -- I will make a note to have TPI at future shoots. along with a caution of riding a bolt forward .
Ignorance may be bliss, but it's not a virtue.

Offline The Wolfhound

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Re: Why we discuss 'squibs' during the safety briefing
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2012, 12:23:13 PM »
I try to be sure everyone has "Eyes and Ears" when I work the line.  Having seen a couple of out of battery detonations by .22LRs, I know those folks were glad I kept hammering it.

I was glad to see the comentary on the video that said the shooter was essentially uninjured.  It certainly was a scary thing to see.

Offline Johnnyappleseed

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Re: Why we discuss 'squibs' during the safety briefing
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2012, 12:52:12 PM »
Wonder how  long it will take the shooter to overcome buck-flinch-jerk  :D
« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 03:48:57 PM by Johnnyappleseed »
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Offline George Hacker

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Re: Why we discuss 'squibs' during the safety briefing
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2012, 01:08:47 PM »
The young lady in the video posted the following this morning:

Quote
I was very lucky with the outcome. I have lots of splinters and bruising, but nothing broken. My left hand took the brunt of the blow to my wrist and palm of my hand. Still pretty painful, but I? will be fine. Thanks for the concern.

I am the person this happened to. The 7th round jammed, which is nothing unusual for this gun. It happens all the time. That is why I didn't really hesitate to shoot the final round. We were using newer ammo, so we don't? think that's the problem. My brother has been looking at his M1, and we noticed it will still fire with the chamber not fully closed. The chamber can be open up to 1/2" and the weapon will still fire. We think that's what happened.
Thankfully she is OK with just a little bit of bruising.

It sounds like dart67eb is correct in that the problem was an out of battery detonation.  After watching the video again it appears that she ejected and removed the 7th round then eased the 8th round into the chamber.

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Offline asminuteman

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Re: Why we discuss 'squibs' during the safety briefing
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2012, 01:19:18 PM »
JAS...

wow interesting thought..........I ve had "out of battery" experiences.....yet this one was "colossal"!
getting back on the horse...and in the saddle again after that.......first few would be with eyes closed...*L*

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Offline Johnnyappleseed

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Re: Why we discuss 'squibs' during the safety briefing
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2012, 03:47:01 PM »
A few years back at KCMG shoot , a guy was firing a Lahti when the gun fired out of batttery . As I recall the Lahti fired a 20mm round .

The bolt blew back through part of his stomach and did lots of internal damage .
One theory was the handloads he was useing had improper primer seating .

Not sure if the exact cause was determined .
Forunately because of excelent medical treatment the man survived .

I will add a few seconds of instruction about making sure bolt is fully closed . I may also TPI this ,as I see lots of folks riding bolts forward .
or even a song " Let it slam " let it slam ' let it slam-- only kidding about the song :D
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Offline asminuteman

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Re: Why we discuss 'squibs' during the safety briefing
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2012, 09:37:11 PM »
I agree JA!

way to many "nurse maiding" the bolt! I had a few AR's @castro....doing it
when I explained pull it completely back and let it fly and just how the system works.and why......
the comments from these folks hit home the need for classes /clinics/lessons.

wont I break it?.....it was quite expencive....wont that scratch it

they didn't even understand the "forward assits"

hopefully its all sorted out until the next one
 
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Offline dart67eb

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Re: Why we discuss 'squibs' during the safety briefing
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2012, 10:55:07 PM »
I'm adding 'out of battery' and 'riding the bolt' to my COF.
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Offline Johnnyappleseed

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Re: Why we discuss 'squibs' during the safety briefing
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2012, 03:23:21 AM »
ASM and Dart67
or anyone else ,

- if you come up with something quick and catchy  to drive this point home I would like to use it .
What do you think of  ,showing a out of battery rifle and then a quick story of what we have seen happen ? would be added to hangfire , misfire and squib.

It's a sure fact if the shooter in video had this instruction , she would still have a M1 and be a lot less hurt.
Nothing in the world can take the place of Persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.
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Offline dart67eb

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Re: Why we discuss 'squibs' during the safety briefing
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2012, 07:31:51 AM »
One more thing to point out.  She talked about the 7th round jamming.  My Garand did that (FTF) until I put in a new spring kit.  $20 fix. 
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Offline JustJeff

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Re: Why we discuss 'squibs' during the safety briefing
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2012, 12:27:43 PM »
ASM and Dart67
or anyone else ,

- if you come up with something quick and catchy  to drive this point home I would like to use it .
What do you think of  ,showing a out of battery rifle and then a quick story of what we have seen happen ? would be added to hangfire , misfire and squib.

It's a sure fact if the shooter in video had this instruction , she would still have a M1 and be a lot less hurt.

Pause the video on the part where the explosion occurs, take a screenshot of it, and print out photos to show what can happen... That will get a little attention. 
Your version of "ineffective" does not necessarily reflect the truth....
Having been "ineffectively" taught to the Rifleman Standard and having been "ineffectively" taught to teach others to the Rifleman Standard, I believe I prefer the "ineffective" over the other choice.

Offline Johnnyappleseed

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Re: Why we discuss 'squibs' during the safety briefing
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2012, 12:28:48 PM »
can anyone 7th step this couple ?
Her rifle would make a great prop!
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Calvin Coolidge

Offline Johnnyappleseed

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Re: Why we discuss 'squibs' during the safety briefing
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2012, 12:33:38 PM »
JJ ---
great idea-- that pic is worth a 1000 words  O0

Anyone here, capable of doing that ? not me  :-[
Nothing in the world can take the place of Persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'Press On' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.
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Offline George Hacker

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Re: Why we discuss 'squibs' during the safety briefing
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2012, 01:06:15 PM »
Here are a couple.  Faces have been blocked for privacy reasons.

First pic shows the stock flying (you can see one piece flying by on the left edge of the screen, another is spinning in the sky).

Second pic shows the butt of the stock on the shooter's shoulder as the rest of the rifle nose dives.

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Offline JustJeff

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Re: Why we discuss 'squibs' during the safety briefing
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2012, 02:00:35 PM »
Good job, ShadowMan.

You know, I just noticed that this entire discussion is taking place in the NM forum.  While I appreciate that, because I no longer have access to the IIT/IT forums, this topic should probably be copied (not moved) to the IIT/IT forum into a 'Safety' section (I did ask Techres to post it in an appropriate spot, via PM, just before my messaging rights were removed).  The other thing I noticed is that I'm probably the only one from NM weighing in on the matter..... hopefully some of the others from here will chime in.
Your version of "ineffective" does not necessarily reflect the truth....
Having been "ineffectively" taught to the Rifleman Standard and having been "ineffectively" taught to teach others to the Rifleman Standard, I believe I prefer the "ineffective" over the other choice.

Offline oladcock

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Re: Why we discuss 'squibs' during the safety briefing
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2012, 05:09:37 PM »
Not the only one Jeff...Plenty of arm chair quarterbacking going on as it is! :) Fact is very few firearms are capable of being fired out of battery Actually none that I'm aware of), over charges, slam fires, or squibs are the real culprit with OOB used as an easy excuse. It surely won't hurt to mention riding the bolt, (some of us already do) to help pervent failures to fire but that's not a safety issue. At least our regional group does a good job on squibs, mis-fires, and hang fires. Many will get a "click", manually eject the bulletless case thinking it's a failure to eject from the last round that did go bang, the next one will be the blow up. Squibs are not always obvious and the best advice of all is NEVER EVER shoot someone elses reloads.....O.L.
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Offline Old Dog

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Re: Why we discuss 'squibs' during the safety briefing
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2012, 06:11:07 PM »
I posted this on the M14 Firing Line Public Forum where there are quite a few very experienced shooters and gunsmiths.  One comment from someone other than me was that the firing pin safety bridge would have to be worn before the firing pin could contact the primer with the bolt not fully locked up.  These are old guns and most likely should be inspected by a qualified M1/M14 gunsmith if you're going to trust them.

Something beside the firing pin could have set it off.

Bottom line is the rifle stock is gone.  Possibly some other parts as well.  And the shooter may not ever be able to trust that type of rifle again (100% anyway).

Offline TaosGlock

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Re: Why we discuss 'squibs' during the safety briefing
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2012, 02:03:01 PM »
These days, I tend to read more and post less as I have learned to listen with my ears and not my mouth or keyboard.
But this topic is good and thanks for posting it Jeff. O0

Like OL said, "Hang-fires, Mis-fires and Squibs" have been part of the safety brief for years in NM, and other states I assume.

"If  after pulling the trigger, it sounds funny or feels funny, raise your hand." "A click instead of a bang."  You get the idea.
There are many ways to handle this aspect of the safety brief to raise the awareness for potential HMS's problem.
I guess when the gun explodes like in the vid, it will be known to all. %)

'Eyes and Ears' and especially eyes are important to mention in the safety briefing. This vid proves it. From rim-fires to center-fires, disasterous results can happen to anyone close, students or instructors. I will shut a line down momentarily for 'eyes' while the embarassed shooter/shooters gets this handled.

Here is perhaps another possibility for the shooter. And it can't be detected at this point.
A squib load induced from a glitch in the production line from the ammo manufacturer could have caused a dangerous 'hang-fire'. Pressures go thru the roof when normal powders are cut in half or so.

Some background info:
The M1 was originally proofed to 120,000 PSI where it only experienced minor cracking of the lugs. Same rifle was then fired for another 5000 rounds using "service" ammo. No further problems.

We may never really know the exact cause. The vid is not 100% conclusive as to the 'exact' cause.

Reloaders are warned against reducing loads below maximum starting. There is point where pressures naturally decrease as you decrease powder. But going too far then creates a type of secondary explosive effect takes place (a hang-fire) and pressures can, but not always exceed proof loads.
Depending on many factors, a hang-fire may not produce a pop from the primer followed by a boom of some sort. It may be an instantaneous sound as far as the brain is concerned.

One example is of early shooters reloading their 460 Wby. trying to create 45/70 Springfield velocities by using 50-60 grains of powder instead of the nearly 100-120 grains on average required. In this case, these relaoders discovered the disasterous 'hang-fire' results of their "squibs" or reduced loads the hard way.
Other calibers are not immune.
Powder manufacturers warn against using less than minimum starting loads.

I know this was new factory ammo the M1 shooter was using too. QC problems are still abundant, even in the age of robots.

Hang-fires, Mis-fires and Squibs, faulty parts, etc. It is something we deal with.



 
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 11:13:51 PM by TaosGlock »
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Offline Nickle

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Re: Why we discuss 'squibs' during the safety briefing
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2012, 03:04:30 PM »
A case head blowout, though rare, can easily happen with an M1 or M14 clone. I have had it happen myself, a simple matter of really bad brass ('97 vintage Indian OFV). I didn't end up with as spectacular result, but some of the rounds in the mag detonated, and pieces of the mag ended up in my palm. Didn't do as much damage as I thought it would have. Cast receiver (early FedOrd) was tougher than the forged bolt (SA). Rebuilt the rifle with a new bolt and ejector, and a stock from Fred.
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Offline Johnnyappleseed

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Re: Why we discuss 'squibs' during the safety briefing
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2012, 08:28:09 PM »
As someone once said " I lifetime is not long enough to learn the gun culture  ;D
Thanx to all who posted  O0
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Re: Why we discuss 'squibs' during the safety briefing
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2012, 12:33:02 AM »
During the Albuquerque SandSeed in November 2010, a stock Norinco MAK-90 had an OOBD.  SB attributed it to sand that kept the bolt from locking up coupled with loose tolerances.  No injuries due to proper eye pro.  See the IAAR for details.  These things do happen on our lines.