Discussion of Carlos Hathcocks method of sighting in a Rifle

[Bill 3]

And said to me at the boot camp - where is your notebook......?

Good stuff

[jmdavis]

And said to me at the boot camp - where is your notebook......?

Good stuff

But I was nice about it, wasn't I?

[Bill 3]

Not really but I deserved it....  It was up in my pack not that it did me any good there.

Seriously - everyone should be taking explicit notes whenever they shoot.  Rifle, rifle condition, ammo specifics, temp, humidity, lighting conditions, incline, position, target, wind, ... everything.  Even how you're feeling that day...  Caffeine or nicotine jitters, nerves, tired, etc.

[Bill 3]

Did I really not list sight adjustments - from a baseline of course so that it's repeatable.... anytime?

[jmdavis]

Did I really not list sight adjustments - from a baseline of course so that it's repeatable.... anytime?

Since I now have a Burris Scout scope, I will tell you what I do for it. I have my 200 yard zero marked on the scope. I then know my comeups for 300, 400, and 460 yards (tested at the field shoot and on paper out to 400). I ran these through the hornady ballistics calculator after developing my load and 25m zero. Then confirmed in the field.  My comeups are a little different because they are for a 7mm-08 and a custom load. If I could see up close without reading glasses I probably wouldn't have to count clicks. But I like counting clicks.

For my M1 and 1903a3 (which I also have dope on out to 460). I only count clicks. The numbers are way too small for me to see.

Mike

[jmdavis]

There are more Gus stories about Gunny Hathcock and I have a couple myself. Eventually these will find their way here. One of the big takeaways from this one is the importance of keeping good notes.

VAShooter recently loaned be the notebook used for one of his rifles in the late 90's. It included load development, weather ,testing results, etc. Every shot out of that rifle was recorded. Being able to see what he saw as important has helped me to pay attention to the details of being a better shooter. If each of you is willing to take on the task it will help you as well.


Mike

[Andre]

Thanks for the post.  Seems like a great way to know both your rifle and yourself.  I've recently been wrestling with what to log doing load development - want to know what's necessary, but I don't want to get bogged down with minutia.  Also, about to bring a new rifle into the camp, so I'm thinking this might be a good time to start doing a specific rifle log, something that I've never done before.

[featherblue]

JMDAVIS,

Thank you for posting that. I have read several books about Carlos Hathcock as has my wife. Now I need to really get to work with my log book for my precision rifle!!! 

-fb

[JustJeff]

To think I lived about 12 miles from Gunny Hathcock, in the 80's, and never made an effort to meet the man...
Yes, I knew about him... I'd read his Bio.  No, I didn't have the courage to just contact him and say hi.  I honestly believe my lack of that courage (I understand he was a very nice guy who enjoyed meeting new people) kept me from a path of my life which would have been AWESOME.
Everything I've heard or read about the man makes him a hero to me.

[Castle Mountain]

Thanks JMDavis for such a slendid read.
I thoroughly enjoyed that. AS Mu ch as we
enjoyed our time with you at the RBC Osage.

Yeah the note book lest I forget.

Appreciate ya brother

CM

[sashok.privetov]

Mike,
I'm going to play dumb, and ask you for the answers to your questions.  Well, OK--I'm not playing...   

My guess is that he wanted to eliminate any factors that might affect accuracy.  But I don't really know.

[jmdavis]

There is no wrong answer. These questions are to make you think as a shooter/instructor.  But part a goal was to be able to make a precision shot with a cold, clean bore (as one would in hunting) in all types of weather/environments, from different positions.

OK, now you have to think about the other three!

[sashok.privetov]

2.  Got $#!t to do?  ensure a cold bore?  record as much info as possible?
3.  None of your d   mn business!  lol
4.  Record as much info after the 300th shot is made?

[The Wolfhound]

While number 1 was ensure the cold bore,  number 2 was to ensure the "cold" rifleman.  All focus on the single shot, as a hunter would, fire most likely a single shot and a single kill in a day's hunting (when done right).  Not working while well in the groove of a shooting day.

[jmdavis]

Bringing this back to the top for people to think about.

[ben1775]

Bringing this back to the top for people to think about.

Thanks for the bump, Mike.

As a habitually bad log booker, its good to see this stuff. My new M14's book has a scant amount in it despite a couple battle packs going down the bore. I must do better 

[Patent guy]

I've read another gunwriter's procedure for identifying clean bore zero and fouled bore zero for black powder hunting rifles, and the differences were big (8moa or more).

In my service rifles, I see a similar effect; the cold, clean bore zero is sometimes 2-3 moa away from the 2nd-30th shot zero, so in HP competition, I waste the first round, sometimes shooting it into the berm so that I don't have to score that "cold, clean bore" shot.

[jmdavis]

Back to the top.

[Fred]

   Patent Guy makes a good point: For a sniper, the first shot may be the only one of importance; for the competition shooter, it's the later shots - with a warm, dirty barrel, which you need the zero for.

   Heck, I suggest when you go out and zero, if you are really critical about it, put up three targets - one for that first, "cold, clean bore" shot, one for the second shot, and the third for the rest of the shots, so you get the "cold, clean" zero, check to see if that intermediate "somewhat warm, somewhat dirty" shot goes "somewhere else", and finally get your "warm, dirty" zero...

    Most of us are geared not so much to "sniper" or "competition" shooting, but to the traditional "field" shooting of the American rifleman. (Not putting either "S" or "C" shooting down, just reminding people of the "traditional" shooting done by riflemen down thru this country's history.)

[jmdavis]

A hunter depends on his cold bore zero (whether clean or foul). Like Andy, I tend to foul the bore before an HP competition or make sure that I know where that first shot will be.

At a field shoot. My barrel is already fouled because I have taken sighters. Therefore the clean bore is less important than the knowing where the cold bore zero is. The question is, how do I remember all of this data. It's one thing to know your zero for HXP-62 M2 ball (8 clicks on my H&R). It's another to know my clean/cold zero, my fouled/cold zero. And my zero within a course of fire. To solve that issue. I write down that information and read it before a match or field shoot.

Another example from the book is that my afternoon and morning zero's are always different (for whatever reason) at Ramseur. Generally, the morning zero will be high for the afternoon. Is this because of thermals coming up from the 225 yard line toward the 500? I couldn't say. But I know that I have had to lower my sights every time that I have zeroed in the morning and shot in the afternoon there. On the other hand, at Butner (on flat ground), they tend to be much closer and generally a lights up/sights up situation may apply in the amount of 1/2 or so MOA (as opposed to 1.5 MOA at Ramseur).

In my book from a recent class with Jim Owens in AL, I see the effect of several experiments. One of these was tightening and loosening the 1907 sling by one notch from initial setting (as determined by dryfire). In my case 1 tighter made a big difference.

Another is ammo testing with Overall length where I fired 7 round of 600 yard ammo at each of 9 different lengths (Groove length, -.005, -.010, -.015, -.020, -.025, -.030, -.035, -.040). In my case -.040 with the 80 gr. Sierra gave me the best groups. This meant an overall length of 2.435 in my rifle. It would be difficult to remember all of this without recording it.

I approach shooting the same way that I approach reloading or my work in computer science. I write down my results and procedures. That way, I don't have to relearn them via experience in the future. Experience can be a hard teacher.

Good luck and Merry Christmas.

[Josey Wales]

..I love reading stuff like this.  I have a real appreciation for methodical teachings like such, you put the time in and good things come out of it..   Thanks jmdavis..

.....Strength & Honor..............Josey Wales..............

[Old Dog]

JM, I'll bet the difference at Ramseur with rear sight settings is the light.  Remember the funny way the morning light affects being able to see the targets (pop ups)? 

I read about the clean/dirty barrel, cold/warm barrel stuff quite a bit here and there.  My experience (and actions) are if I get a rifle that shoots differently clean/dirty/cold/warm I either get rid of it or don't shoot it when I'm serious.  I was raised up to clean my guns every time I shoot them, so the first shot of every day is a clean cold barrel (whether target shooting or hunting).   My M1A shoots okay (used it to shoot a few rifleman scores at the Feb. 2007 RBC at Ramseur) but my M1 Garand shoots rings around the M1A (or at least I shoot it better) so the M1A hasn't been to the range since the summer of 2007 (no, I'm not selliing it).

If you're serious about shooting be serious about your equipment, too.  I don't mean match rifles, I mean consistent shooting rifles and ammo that work for you.  The Rem. 742 that my father-in-law owned when he died was the third rifle from that "buy".  He bought one, took it home, it didn't shoot to suit him so he took it back and got another one.  That one didn't meet his expectations either so he took it back and brought a third one home.  That one shoot to suit him and he killed deer with it for years.  Made shots other folks talked about for years.  Made one of my buddies so envious that he took his 742 back to the gun store and traded it off for something he thought would shoot better.  There are very accurate stock guns out there waiting to be bought.  Don't saddle yourself with a gun that has mechanical or bedding issues (fix it yourself if you can, trade it off if you can't).

Have a good one.

[jmdavis]

OD, I'm not sure that it's the light. I have seen it happen on overcast days too. Previously I had leaned toward a combination of temp/humidity. However AMU has been discounting humidity at these ranges. In addition, it's the amount in question 1-1.5 moa that bothers me. .5 moa to 1 moa might be right for light (with a 5 o'clock hold). But with a center hold a 1.5 moa difference (and that just to hit the target/popup), I'm still not sure.

You make a good point about the rifles. But you have to shoot them and learn them to find that out. I have noticed in my lifetime that I seem to come across a good many 1 in 1000 guns. Funny how that happens for some people. That being said my muzzle loaders all shoot a different fouled bore zero. This is one reason that I wipe them with a wet and then dry patch in matches.

Mike

[Old Dog]

Well, I  haven't seen it with my scopes so I figured it was the effect of light on the front sight.  I know the light plays havoc with me and iron sights.  I can see the front sight in bright sun but once the sun rises high enough that the firing line is in shade the front sight becomes part dark, part grey/light diagonal lines on the left side of the sight post and part grey/light diagonal lines on top of the sight post.  The size/intensity of the diagonal lines varies with the amount of light on the sight post.

[GEmanuel]

OD, sounds like a question of light refraction. We used to use lamp black or G96 I think it is makes "Sight Black" the idea being that light would not refract from that material. Not 1005 sure, but this might be worth a try.
Tough to work with a Kaleidoscope for a front sight post   

[Old Dog]

I've blackened the front sight.  Its just an age/eye thing.  I can read a book sitting in the sun.  Inside the house or in the shade I have to put my glasses on.  No big deal.

And the light thing at Ramseur is a funny thing.  The range is cut through the trees and I believe it runs mostly north to south.  The sun comes up off to the side and as it rises it gets to a point where it goes from lots of shadow on the range to lots of sun and then back to shadow in the evening.  I think they've actually painted the popups white and they are still hard to see.  Prior to painting them they were much more difficult to see (someone who goes there to shoot - I haven't been in two or three years - would have better info on the targets).  A good scope is a wonderful thing for that type of shooting.   As you increase the range the height of the targets increases as the range is up the side of a small hill.  It is a really good "field" shooting range.  Lots of grass/green, elevation changes, a good left to right amount of range requiring movement/repositioning to engage targets left to right, when the wind blows it's different at one distance vs. another (go down there on a windy day and watch those range flags - sometimes they'll blow different directions at 200 vs. 400, or momentarily hang limp at 200 while standing almost straight out at 400 yds. - makes you appreciate a .30 caliber rifle .  I get some stuff straightened out and I'd like to go back down there again.  Right now between the knee on one leg, the clot in the other leg, the left shoulder, bruising issues from the anti clotting medicine (haven't shot the M1 in over a year now) I'm shooting the AR (and it bruises me somedays) and pistols.

[GEmanuel]

Getting old is not for the faint of heart OD, I know, I have many of the same ailments as you. (DVT) Guess we could be the modern example of why there was an "alarm band."      But, don't try to keep me out of the fight!

[The Wolfhound]

At an age where I would be on the alarm list, I remain determined to stay a "dangerous old man".   

[Patent guy]

I was shooting with an accomplished High Power shooter who told me I was doing too much cleaning, and, as a result, was always ruining my barrel's "seasoning" (he used that term as if we were discussing a cast iron fry pan).  His standard practice was leaving rifles alone so long as they shoot well (for hundreds of rounds and many days at a time) and then running a single damp patch down the bore just to remove the big chunks of carbon fouling.  He noted, for example, that he did not clean his rifles (2) at all during the Camp Perry Long Range matches.

The experience was thought-provoking because this guy shoots very well all the time and he has access to all the guns, parts and supplies he could ever want.  He just does not want much in the way of cleaning tools or supplies.  By comparison, I felt like I might be a little obsessive about clean bores. 
Maybe I clean so much (after every outing) because I just like fondling fine firearms...

I'm probably not going to give that up...so...hopefully Santa will bring me more supplies for Christmas.  Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukkah to you all!

[sashok.privetov]

Hell, that's FiremanEd's standard operating procedure...  As long as the rifle keeps shooting, why clean it? Wasn't that the whole point of smokeless/non-corrosive ammo?
If you don't shoot corrosive ammo or black powder, the only need to clean the arm is when starts to malfunction.

Now, if you clean because you like fondling (fine) firearms...  A whole lot can be said about that.  Granpaw Freud might have a few words.