Knob Creek, KY - Nov. 5-6, 2011

[slim]

I'll come back and write more later. What a great event at the historic and wonderful Knob Creek Range.

Feel free to add your input. Huzzah!

[Ewald]

Well to a boy who lives in Illinois Knob Creek had been rumored to be a paradise. It did not disappoint! Fantastic facility with a great Appleseed crew.

Things were a bit chilly on Saturday morning but it soon warmed up as did the shooters. Significant improvement was seen on the Red Coats each day. We had our first Rifleman on Saturday, with two more to follow on Sunday. Can you say father and son Riflemen? There also were two families shooting together. It is always fantastic to see how a such a diverse group can come together on the firing line.

There is so much to say, but the clock say I need to get to work. Thanks to everyone for making this Yankee feel at home. Oh yes, let's not forget the Riflepersons!

[GarandFan]

What a great weekend for an appleseed.  What started off as a frost covered morning warmed up to be a beautiful weekend.  We had a great bunch of shooters attend who all brought a teachable attitude, the most important thing at an appleseed.  I enjoyed working with each and every one of you and hope to see you all again at future appleseeds.  Congratulations to all who shot rifleman score.  Persistence is the key.  I would like to send out a special thank you to Ewald and Slim for coming down to help out the KY crew.  Your efforts are much appreciated.  It was also a great pleasure to work with one of kentuckys newest IIT's, CHUCKS.  I look forward to working with you again on the appleseed trail. 

Every time I attend an appleseed I am reminded of why I volunteered.  Thanks to all who attended and to those who made this weekend possible.  See you at the range (winterseeds are just around the corner).

[ChuckS]

Great to work my first AS as an IIT with y'all - instructors and students.
Best part was watching people make solid progress with their shooting by following the fundamentals.

Great facility at Knob Creek, too.

See y'all again real soon.

[Magloader]

The weather was actually really nice this shoot, despite being in November. It was good to see family out shooting together and learning their heritage. Unfortunately, the wind blew my shooting mat downrange during one course of fire.....I took it home with a few extra holes in it.

For the sake of improving future shoots, there were some concerns I would like to mention.

My main concern was safety. I saw quite a few muzzle sweeps from several shooters. Two were done by my neighbor and he was never corrected by Appleseed staff. Safety Rule 4 says "Make sure all those around you follow the safety rules." So I talked to him and afterwards there were no more problems. One other safety concern that I had was that people continued to fire after the "cease fire" command had been called. I never heard it addressed.

I have been to 5 Appleseeds and also a Rifleman Bootcamp, so I know I don't need as much instruction as new shooters do. At this shoot I received no instruction at all. No one asked if I needed help, or asked how I was doing or anything like that. Nobody talked to me about my targets. I felt totally ignored. I am persevering towards my Rifleman patch, and am almost there. I just still need some help.

It was a very slow shoot. We did not do very many AQTs.

The instruction was difficult to follow in several areas. IMC was not very clear and the positions were not shown as they should have been. If I had not been to previous Appleseeds I would not have understood what they were teaching.

History was scattered and hard to follow, and they did not get the facts and names right. I know it's hard to teach in front of a group of people, especially if you have not done it very much. I am not trying to be critical. I just know that this is a heritage program and if people don't follow the history they won't get the heritage. I love hearing these stories, and I want everyone else that hears them to love them too.

If this was my first shoot I don't think I would want to go to another one.  Because I have been to several other shoots, I know the way they are generally run. I know that all shoots will be different, but there are common things in all of them. I was just disappointed with this one.

At the end of the shoot, the shoot boss asked if everyone had fun, and I didn't raise my hand. He asked why in front of the group, but I didn't want to complain in front of anyone else, and then the subject just sort of moved on. Later, he came up to me and asked why I didn't have fun, so I told him all of my concerns. He thanked me and requested that I post all of my thoughts here, so that we all can work on continuing to improve Appleseed as a whole.

I want to say again that I am not trying to complain. I love Appleseed and want it to wildly succeed.

Just the opinions of a 16 year old girl. 

[yellowhousejake]

I want to say again that I am not trying to complain. I love Appleseed and want it to wildly succeed.

Just the opinions of a 16 year old girl. 

Thank you Magloader, this is exactly what we need to hear. Your feedback makes us better, especially from someone who has been to several Appleseeds and can make an educated comparison. Your Shoot Boss was absolutely correct in encouraging you to make this post. I am glad you did as he asked.

If you want to get into detail, or hear the how and why of it, feel free to PM him directly and help us get better.

Now, you have been to several Appleseeds and I have helped you with your targets, what are they telling you? Rifleman is a journey and your targets will tell you the way. Feel free to post a photo of your groups in a new thread and I am certain some savy instructor will chime in and help you to self diagnose. 

Yellowhousejake

[SPQR]

Maggy, I think you should shoot that rifleman score and start instructing.  Slim needs somebody to keep him in line and I think we just found our girl.

[gunfat]

I had a great time both days,the instructors had a good sense of humor that made it more like fun than a dry learning class.Something I would like to see is a time out to clean your weapon,by the e middle of both days my rifle had become so dirty(ammo) it would almost quite cycling at times.I know its all about History & marksmanship,(rackgrade rifle&ammo)but to all the 22 rimfire shooters,a 22lr gets its headspace from the thickness of the rim and cheap bulk pack ammo just ant up to the AQT...Coke cans at 25 yds its fine!ask the folks that shoot aspirins at 50yds they will not use bulk pack ammo.You must find the type and brand of ammo your rifle shoots most accurate.I have 2 Ruger 10/22s one likes American Eagle or Remington target the other CCI mini mags or Armscore precision,if I would have used any other ammo I would NOT have shot rifleman!

[Mudcat]

if I would have used any other ammo I would NOT have shot rifleman!

Hey Gunfat don't sell yourself short. I have seen many many Rifleman scores shot with bulk ammo. I like to take the duds that shooters rifles will not function on and throw in the top of my "box" then shoot AQTs with them, all different brands.
Keep practicing and you will see what I mean. Now the guys who hit aspirins at 50 yards may be a different story. But for the AQT if it functions it will shoot well enough for a 210+ easily. It is the nut behind the butt. Evidently you learned what you were about, congratulations! Glad you had a good time at KCR.

[SPQR]

I seen Mudcat shoot rifleman with hundred year old Blazer.  Seen HQ shoot in the 230s with bulk Rem Golden Bullet hollow point.  Seen rack grade rifle and ammo prove themselves time and again.  Just grab a box of somethin cheap and try it. 

[gunfat]

Why not teach people the right ammo for their rifle,bulk pack is garbage.tolerances for centerfire weapons are much tighter than for rimfire.We all know accuracy comes from proper headspace,take a 22lr put it in a gun vise fire 20 or 30 rds 10 at a time, bulk pack ammo you get 3 or 4 on target  and the group gets bigger,then you have a couple of flyer's.If you can guess where the odd ball rounds are going to hit,that's great...bulk pack ammo is about $20 for 500 rounds CCI mini mags are $35 for 500 rounds at Wai-mart,why not spend the extra money and hit what you aim at.

[hawkhavn]

gunfat,

Because not all bulk pack is not 'garbage', is why.  Some rifles are pickier than others, Appleseed will certainly let a shooter know by the end of the weekend how well a rifle works and with what ammo.  As far as cleaning a rifle mid-day, a squirt of your cleaner of choice and a quick run through with a bore snake and you're good to go.  Easily done during a prep period.

HH

[jmdavis]

I think that it is particularly important with 10/22's to check the action screw at a couple of points in the day. I generally like shooters to do this after the RedCoat and in the Afternoon on Saturday and in the morning and afternoon on Sunday.

One of the problems with older 10/22's is that gunk builds up behind the hook of the extractor. The best way to deal with this (as indicated by increasing frequency of stove pipes) is to clean it with a dental pick or very small punch (such as the one on a Swiss Army knife). Be careful not to pivot the extractor too much (it will fly away and you will be out of a rifle for the day).

Truthfully, I don't often clean the barrels of my 10/22's. I clean the target rifles (from the breach every few hundred rounds). But I do make sure that they are lubed and that the above mentioned part is clean.

When a rifle is really dirty and jamming you can sometimes get it back in operation with a good spray of brake cleaner into the action (be careful with synthetic receivers and this may remove paint), shake it out, wipe it down, run the snake with hoppes or other inexpensive cleaner down the barrel and try it again. This can help you get through an event when you just don't have time to do a more thorough job.

My conversion kits from CMMG and Kimber, primarily digest Mini-Mags, my 10/22's seem to like blazer (high impulse, about 10fps slower than minimags). Target rifles get Eley, or Remington DCM whitebox from the 90's (likely also Eley). These are subsonic or standard velocity rounds that can shoot ragged hole groups at 25m with the target guns.

Good luck and Happy Thanksgiving!

[gunfat]

jmdavis......that sounds great!  If you want to clean a 10/22 from the back drill a 1/4 hole in the rear of the receiver,I ran about 1500 rds Thru mine and no ill effects so far.

[Johnnyappleseed]

magloader thank you for your well thought out post.
Good job correcting the muzzle sweeps 

regarding your observations about the AS being slow . At one of my 1st AS,as a RH ,  an attendee was complaining to me about this SB did not do it like the last one did .
I replied ,when SS and I as IITs did an event at Yakima , we did lots of AQTs. This lady comes up to me and says"Don't you have any more stories"?

The concept that the SB needs to read  the attendee's skill level and interest to history is an important aspect to a successfull event.

Looking forward to watching you progress through the AS ranks . Based on your post , you truly have the heart of a Rifleman.