The ideal rifleman's rifle

[Garand]

     I have been lately thinking about what would the ideal rifleman's rifle look like and I thought this would be an excellent place to attempt to find an answer to that question?

      Since the rifleman goal is to be able to hit a 20" target out to at least 500 yards with every shot, what sort of attributes should the ideal rifleman's have? A crisp trigger, excellent sights or optics, a sling, and perhaps a bipod are all necessary for the ideal rifle and therefore, I doubt that there needs to be a debate about those features.

     Should the rifle be semi-auto, bolt action or perhaps something else. With a semi-auto, the rifleman does not have cycle the action after every shot and therefore should be better able to keep his focus on the six steps to firing the shot. This is an advantage when shooting the AQT but is it of any real advantage in the field? On the other hand, having a rifle which instantaneously reloads itself may give the rifleman the wrong idea that if he misses with the first shot he can compensate with a second or third. The bolt action should encourage the rifleman to focus on making each shot count since the rifleman has to cycle the action before taking the next shot, but does it? We must also take into consideration the fact that the bolt action will at least require the rifleman to reacquire a good cheek weld after every shot. Is there any significant difference in hits per minute between the semi-auto and the bolt action? Is there some other action that is better suited for the ideal rifleman's rifle than either the semi-auto or the bolt action?

     Does the ammunition capacity matter for the rifle? Is it better to 5 rounds than 10 or 20, 10 better than 5 or 20, etc.? Does having more rounds encourage the idea that it is of no consequence if a few are not as well aimed as they should be? What is the ideal number of rounds that the rifle should have?

If there are other attributes that should be discussed, feel free to mention them.

[techres]

1. Ballistically able to reach 500.
2. Cheaply fed so you can loan out the rifle at every seed you run.
3. Stock that lets kids or adults can use it while on loan.
4. Have both scope & irons so both can be learned and experienced.
5. Have sling mounts of some sort.
6. Be cheap enough to have a second!

[yellowhousejake]

Hmm, reading your post the answer is simple. Reading TR's response, not so much.

The perfect Rifleman's rifle is easy, the one you can hit with. I don't care if it is semi auto, bolt, lever or pump. The most accurate rifle I ever witnessed, repeatedly, was a Remington 760. The man who owned it I never ever saw miss a shot. He was fast too.

The perfect Riflemans rifle, the one you can best teach with. I've seen TR put his 15-22 in a shooter's hands and have them drilling five squares by the end of the day. I've seen the same with SPQR and his 10-22, and others as well. In the end I believe the fewer extras, fewer accessories, fewer things beyond stock, provides the best platform for teaching. I can teach marksmanship better with a Rossi break action that works every time over a tricked out 10-22 that requires 30 minutes of familiarization and breaks before the end of the day. A consistent trigger, reasonable sights, a sling. Nothing else is really required.

My 2 cents.

YHJ

[Old Dog]

Wow.  Ask 5 people or 50 people and you'll likely get a different answer.

Pefect for what?  Small game hunting, deer hunting, target shooting, varmint hunting, or more serious uses?  Each one add a different criteria to the discussion.  While many folks here may think a rifleman's rifle is only for training/shooting at Appleseeds they are wrong.  Some may feel only a .30 caliber center fire can be chosen but again, they are wrong.

Its not about the rifle or the qualities of the rifle - its about the rifleman who uses it.

Having said that, I've come to the decesion that my ideal rifle is that old Dec. 1944 M1 I carry with me everytime I hit the road for a weekend at home.  The one that is under the bed in the bedroom.  The one I carry around in the yard with me sometime while letting the dogs get some exercise.  The one that fits me better than any rifle I've ever carried.

[oladcock]

Yep, all the above! "We must also take into consideration the fact that the bolt action will at least require the rifleman to reacquire a good cheek weld after every shot."

Someone skilled with a bolt never takes his cheek off the rifle....O.L.

[Rocket Man]

Something I've been telling my students...

A Rifleman's rifle is not like a sports car.  Its theoretical performance and flashy numbers are not all that meaningful in a practical situation.  Spending more money is not the answer.

A Rifleman's rifle is more like a good running shoe.  It has to fit you.  It has to keep up with you.  You tie it on and it becomes part of you.  Every other consideration is secondary.

--

For me personally what comes closest is the M1 Garand (once I put an inch of extra butt pad on the stock).  Feels right, looks right, reaches out as far as I'll ever need.  This is the only firearm of mine that has a name.  Didn't plan it that way, it just sort of happened.   

[Garand]

I agree that it is the man behind the rifle that makes the difference. I suppose I should rephrase the question this way: What attributes, such as semi vs. bolt action, lend themselves to aiding not hindering the rifleman? I am not asking which rifle is currently the best but what attributes would the ideal rifle(which may never exist) have.

"Someone skilled with a bolt never takes his cheek off the rifle....O.L."-oladcock

How do you keep the bolt from hitting your cheek?

[oladcock]

I agree that it is the man behind the rifle that makes the difference. I suppose I should rephrase the question this way: What attributes, such as semi vs. bolt action, lend themselves to aiding not hindering the rifleman? I am not asking which rifle is currently the best but what attributes would the ideal rifle(which may never exist) have.

"Someone skilled with a bolt never takes his cheek off the rifle....O.L."-oladcock

How do you keep the bolt from hitting your cheek?

Practice! ...O.L.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92Wrv_vpP4Y

http://www.frfrogspad.com/bolt.htm

[Garand]

oladcock

Thanks for the info.

Does anyone have any opinion on what attributes aid or hinder the rifleman aside from the trigger, sights, and sling even if the effect is psychological?

[Dougum]

Well if you want something that makes 700 yrds easy then a swedish mauser with a fixed 4 power scope by bushnell and a winchester bipod from walmart. Loaded with PMC, or wolf or even mil surp you get your self a true sniper. Theres only one problem: + - $1.00 per shot makes it a little 'spensive to shoot.

[henschman]

The ultimate Rifleman's Rifle... hmm, if I could imagine a dream rifle, I would want the following features:

7.62x51 caliber, for ammo price and availability
At least 20" barrel, for ballistics as well as muzzle flash/blast considerations
Chrome lined chamber and bore for corrosion resistance, ease of cleaning, and reliability of cycling
Gas piston operation, for reliability
At least a 20" sight radius for iron sights
Iron sights that are click-adjustable for windage and elevation at the rear sight, and are attached to the barrel/receiver
Weighs no more than 9 lbs. (unloaded and without optics)
Ability to mount optics without requiring a cheek riser
Picatinny rail mount for optics
Modular handguard, allowing the front sling swivel (and other accessories) to be placed wherever the shooter wants
Decent length handguard -- say around 12" long
Free float barrel, for accuracy
Collapsible stock, for comfort in various clothing and positions, getting eye relief with different optics, and comfort for different shooters
Drop-free mags for quick reloads
Side charging handle
Spare parts available and at an affordable price
Capable of 1 MOA accuracy

I don't believe such a rifle exists, but it sure would be nice.  For now, I just "make do" with my good old M1A. 

[Boba Fett]

ANY rifle you can consistently put hits on a 4 moa target out to 500 yds (Rifleman's quarter mile) works just fine.
I wouldn't want to get shot with any caliber at that distance.  Let alone shot repeatedly by a RIFLEMAN.

Boba

[Rocket Man]

Does anyone have any opinion on what attributes aid or hinder the rifleman aside from the trigger, sights, and sling even if the effect is psychological?

All opinions but some things should be uncontroversial...

Semi-auto makes it easier to stay in cadence and avoid breaking position.   There is a separate rhythm for bolt-actions that can work well, but you have to move repeatably instead of just staying down.

Internal magazines don't interfere with your support hand.

For iron sights, the longer sight radius the better, and fat front blades are my preference.  For extra Rifleman goodness, the front blade should be calibrated to match a 20" target at the battlesight zero range (e.g., Garand blade = 8 MOA = covers a 20" target at 250 meters).

Sights need to be as low as possible over the barrel, and the stock needs a high comb.  The easier it is to get a good cheek weld, the better you will shoot.

So much of the rest is personal preference.  It has to fit YOU and what YOU want out of a rifle.   Operating it has to fit with your personal cadence.

[Reddot]

What Boba said....

[Son of Martha]

Does anyone have any opinion on what attributes aid or hinder the rifleman aside from the trigger, sights, and sling even if the effect is psychological?

This is what was asked by OP.  Note the "aside from" part...

> A PROPERLY FITTING STOCK.  This one does not get the attention it deserves.  When slung up with proper NPOA, should be able to relax EVERYTHING and stay on target.  (Stock must be strong enough to stand a tight sling, sling must either be non-stretch material or stretched to the limit.  When you relax, the sling should not creak and lengthen.)  I am 5'9", pretty average guy.  Almost every current production stock is too long.

> Easy-ish manipulation by the trigger hand (reloading especially).  Most current-production semis are made to be serviced by the support hand.

>  Dunno if you consider optics to be sight discussion, but in any event optics will be very useful for field shooting at 4 MOA targets.  Guys who have shot at some of the ranges in Wyoming (popups at 50-500+ yards, NO landscaping, just canyon backdrop, limited target exposure) are adamant that 4x or so is needed, else you may never even SEE the target.

With a semi-auto, the rifleman does not have cycle the action after every shot and therefore should be better able to keep his focus on the six steps to firing the shot. This is an advantage when shooting the AQT but is it of any real advantage in the field?

Most assuredly it is.  I have personally hit 4 (different) popups at 200 yards in 2 seconds with an M1A.  Doubt I will ever see that done with a bolt.

...having a rifle which instantaneously reloads itself may give the rifleman the wrong idea that if he misses with the first shot he can compensate with a second or third.

This is one of the reasons it is an advantage.  It is not a wrong idea, it is truth.  See, the whole "rifleman" idea is a military idea, which presumes human conflict.  It is not a points game.  The QDAQT is a TOOL to get to a rifleman level of shooting.  It is not supposed to be the end-state test, that is performing at Actual Distance.

Now, if someone is so mentally undisciplined that they do not fire every shot with the full intention and expectation of hitting the target, then they are not "rifle shooting" they are "machine tending".  A rifleman is someone who has displayed the ability to consistently perform to a rifleman standard, which precludes wild "spray and pray" type shooting.  You specifically asked for a "rifleman's rifle", so wild shooting was taken off the table at the beginning.

"Rifleman" begins in your HEAD, not your HANDS.

...even if the effect is psychological?

> Semi vs. bolt   .

Hmmm.  Very subjective, but for me:

> Machined steel.  Aluminum melts in fires (so do I, but you didn't specify it had to be RATIONAL....), stamped steel is too deformable.  Dents are for cars, not rifles.

>  Synthetic stocking material.  I like wood, but I know a GOOD synthetic is better.

> Caliber of 7mm or larger.

> Battle proven design and cartridge.

> Common ammo.  This helps psychologically because I can shoot all I want and still get more.

And just because I can't resist adding my 2 bits on sights and trigger:

>  Semi if possible.  Yeah, you can make a bolt work, but you make a semi work with less work  .

> LONG sight radius.

> LOS as close to LOB as possible.

> 7-8 MOA front sight.

> Discrete, repeatable sight adjustments of a known value (clicks).

> Trigger--within a range (3-7 lbs or so), lighter doesn't matter.  Should be consistent, smooth pull with sudden break and a small amount of overtravel.

Wait--did I just describe the M1/M1A rifles?  Yup.

SoM

[jmdavis]

SoM,


You described the M1 Garand too. Having both and having short arms, I find the M1 Garand easier to manimulate and shoot accurrately (particularly in prone) but also somewhat in sitting and offhand.

[mac66]

The term "rifleman" does not necessarily connote the image of a soldier or a person in war. In my mind a "rifleman" is someone who can consistently hit what he/she is aiming at.   I have AR15s, and a bunch of other rifles including an M1a. Most of them make pretty good rifleman rifles.

However, IMO the best rifleman rifle is a bolt action 308 with a 20" bbl and a 2-7x variable scope. I say that because my hunting rifle for the last 25 years is a Winchester Mod 70 in 308 w/20" bbl and a 2-7x Leopold scope. I've shot deer, hogs, antelope and varmints with it at ranges from 40 to 400 yards.  It is slim, trim and light weight and I can carry it all day. It is a simple and efficient action and has everything it needs and nothing it doesn't. It has done everything I have ever asked of it and has never let me down.

[Roland]

Do you mean centerfire or rimfire? Clarify please, as there seems to be some confusion.

[Garand]

"Do you mean centerfire or rimfire?"- Roland

I do not think it matters since the centerfire should have the same affect as a rimfire with the similar attributes.

"However, IMO the best rifleman rifle is a bolt action 308 with a 20" bbl and a 2-7x variable scope."- mac66

What attributes does that hunting rifle have, which makes it a better rifleman's rifle, that the other rifles lack?

"This is one of the reasons it is an advantage.  It is not a wrong idea, it is truth. " - Son of Martha

While I agree that it is an advantage in and of itself, does it encourage the rifleman to think that there is less of a need to make each shot as well aimed as he can since if he misses, he merely compensates with the next shot? Moreover does the bolt action encourage the opposite idea or does the action, whatever type it may be, have no affect one way or the other?

[oladcock]

" It is slim, trim and light weight and I can carry it all day." Being a big ugly fat feller, I want one I can SHOOT all day, to heck with that carrying! ...O.L.

[Son of Martha]

While I agree that it is an advantage in and of itself, does it encourage the rifleman to think that there is less of a need to make each shot as well aimed as he can since if he misses, he merely compensates with the next shot?

If it does, then he ain't acting as a rifleman.

Moreover does the bolt action encourage the opposite idea or does the action, whatever type it may be, have no affect one way or the other?

The action type may have an affect on people who aren't riflemen.  It won't have an effect on a rifleman's accuracy, it likely will on his rate of fire.

For purposes of clarity, when I say "rifleman" I mean someone who can CONSISTENTLY shoot to a rifleman standard on an AD range.


"You fire as fast as you can do it right."

If it needs hitting, hitting it quickly is better than slowly, even if slowly is fast enough (this time....).


SoM

[Wade]

The Rifle "You know",,,
other then that  rear peep sight  ajustable for windage and come ups  in 1 moa clicks  1/2 works also  a good sling on it 1907 or GI web does not matter  semi or bolt each has its better points then the other stripper clip or mag fed or bolth at the same time .

an m-1 garand is a great Rifle for me it fits me it might not work for you it might not fit  a mas 49/56 will work  a 1888 comisson Rifle will work an sks will work  a mosin nagant will work.

wade

[Colorado Pete]

Jeff Cooper's Scout concept is a good place to start. Bolt vs. semi is more a matter of how much volume of fire you will need. A hunter needs only one well placed shot; an infantryman may need a whole lot more.

[Garand]

"If it does, then he ain't acting as a rifleman. The action type may have an affect on people who aren't riflemen.  It won't have an effect on a rifleman's accuracy, it likely will on his rate of fire." - Son of Martha

Excellent point.

"Jeff Cooper's Scout concept is a good place to start. Bolt vs. semi is more a matter of how much volume of fire you will need. A hunter needs only one well placed shot; an infantryman may need a whole lot more." - Colorado Pete

What parts of the scout concept aid the riflemen in comparison to the conventional hunting or battle rifle?

[Wade]

I have picked up and shot a scout rifle I rather like it  forward mounted scope  easyer to pick up new targets outside of veiw of scope , scout rifle lighter then most battle rifles and shorter  the one I picked up and shot was an m1a scout rifle ,,it would be easyer to handle in brush and such   , I fully believe that that Rifle would be good to at lest 700 yards , I did not get to find out tho ,,at lest not yet  .

Wade

[Crazy Cat]

Consider your environment, too.  Urban areas tend to have long sight lines, rural areas less so unless there's some agriculture happening (or it's winter...brrr).

How about punching through light brush?  The forest where I live limits visibility to 50' or so once you're under the canopy, and some bullets disappear if they hit so much as a leaf.  Long barrels are great, until you find out there's not enough room to bring the rifle to your shoulder before you hit a tree.

[Dougum]

Consider your environment, too.  Urban areas tend to have long sight lines, rural areas less so unless there's some agriculture happening (or it's winter...brrr).

How about punching through light brush?  The forest where I live limits visibility to 50' or so once you're under the canopy, and some bullets disappear if they hit so much as a leaf.  Long barrels are great, until you find out there's not enough room to bring the rifle to your shoulder before you hit a tree.

Quite true. Very good thing to think about before buying.

[mac66]

" It is slim, trim and light weight and I can carry it all day." Being a big ugly fat feller, I want one I can SHOOT all day, to heck with that carrying! ...O.L.

Ah, but a rifleman only needs one round to make a difference.

[Colorado Pete]

Garand,
Cooper's Scout Rifle concept revolved around making a general-purpose hunting rifle more ergonomic and 'user friendly'. Reducing length and weight for long treks in rough country; using a forward-mount, low-power scope system that was faster and allowed shooting with both eyes open without great disparity between what each eye is seeing and allowing unobstructed access to the action; the 3-point fast-loop Ching sling; a built-in ammo resupply; and a built-in bipod as part of the fore-end without having to hang anything on the outside of the rifle. All these elements combined make for a very easy-to-use rifle.

[oladcock]

" It is slim, trim and light weight and I can carry it all day." Being a big ugly fat feller, I want one I can SHOOT all day, to heck with that carrying! ...O.L.

Ah, but a rifleman only needs one round to make a difference.

Didn't do Custer much good! Who was that who said "Fire, for God sake fire as fast as you can!" There was a reason for that:)......O.L.