Self-defense .223 Ammunition

[GoldFish]

I'm interested in some quality (non-surplus and non-corrosive) .223, NOT 5.56x45, ammunition for self-defense purposes.
Criteria:
-Minimum of 69 grain
-HP or SP
-brass/re-loadable casing
-preferably made in USA


Any comments and advice welcomed and appreciated.
Thanks!

---GF

[boltgun71]

Hornady TAP would be a good place to start.  I have used it a bit and know many others who do and it works well and is usually incredibly accurate.  Below is a link to their 75gr TAP load.

http://www.hornady.com/store/223-Rem-75-gr-FPD/

[Nickle]

Well, by definition of what you want, it IS 5.56x45 ammo. The real difference is in the throat of the chamber, and .223 technically ends at 55 grains.

I know a small shop that can make what you want.

[GoldFish]

Well, by definition of what you want, it IS 5.56x45 ammo. The real difference is in the throat of the chamber, and .223 technically ends at 55 grains.

I know a small shop that can make what you want.

The barrel on my AR says .223, not 5.56 NATO (5.56x45).  I've contacted the manufacturer and talked to several people there, and they have all said that I should only use ammo marked .223, not 5.56x45.  From everything I've read, if my rifle is marked .223 I shouldn't shoot 5.56 ammo, in part because of the throat and also because the 5.56 is loaded to higher pressure.  Is that correct?

[nmmi9100]

I think the 5.56mm vs .223 debate is mostly that...a debate folks like to make online to have something to argue about.  Same thing with the 7.62 NATO vs. 308 debate.  Like anything else, when running new ammo in your rifle, look for pressure signs...cratered primers, difficult extraction, etc. 

I haven't a clue why you want 69 grains or heavier for defense.  They are likely to overpenetrate.  For defense, 55 grain varmint bullets are king.  Softpoints don't feed for crap out of an AR.  V-max and Ballistic tip with the plastic tips give you hollowpoint performance with FMJ-quality feeding.

As for cartridge suggestions, I can only reference experiences i've had shooting animals but if I were to pick a defensive AR round, I'd go with either a Hornady TAP with the V-max bullets OR a Nosler Ballistic Tip.  Both of 55 grains or thereabouts.  I've had great luck with both bullets on varmints.  The V-maxs usually won't penetrate a small coyote shot broadside, inside of 100 yards.  The Nosler is about the same.  Both rounds dump all their energy in the first 6-8 inches of flesh.  So if stopping bad guys and not over penetrating is your mission, either of these rounds feed great, dump energy, and don't over penetrate.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=724752

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=420571

If you need to defeat auto glass to repel boarders, go with something loaded with a Barnes TSX bullet...just know they'll probably go through anyone you shoot that isn't behind a barrier.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=319773

I'm old fashioned.  I keep a Garand loaded with Hornady 150 SSTs as my home defense rifle...

-David
Edgewood, NM

[oladcock]

"I haven't a clue why you want 69 grains or heavier for defense.  They are likely to overpenetrate.  For defense, 55 grain varmint bullets are king.  Softpoints don't feed for crap out of an AR.  V-max and Ballistic tip with the plastic tips give you hollowpoint performance with FMJ-quality feeding."

Yep, I'm confused on that also. Any expanding bullet is more than enough for SD.

I don't know if they can be bought over the counter but many PD's are running Winchester Ranger 64gr Power Point rounds. I've been using these in my reloads. At least in my guns with 1:9  they've proven to be more accurate than others mentioned. I get slightly better groups with 68-69gr match bullets but not much.

NMMI, Feeding problems with SP bullets? I've fed thousands of rounds through 3 different guns of the Win PP's with never a hicup and 165gr Rem Core Lokt out of a  LR-10 with no issues.

Got EBR's stacked like cord wood but for SD, a single SA shotgun and serveral .45's make me sleep good......O.L.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#.223

[Nickle]

There's 3 different "chambers" for the .223/5.56mm. The difference is in the throat.

".223 Rem" chamber, which is for 55 grain and lighter bullets.

"5.56mm NATO" chamber, which is for 62 grain and heavier bullets.

Wylde chamber, which is between the above 2.

I used quotation marks for a couple of obvious reasons. 5.56mm NATO wasn't a true thing until the adoption of the M16A2 and SS109/M855 Ball ammo (62 gr FMJ). Back to the Vietnam time frame, the cartridge was called 5.56mm NATO, but no other NATO country adopted it, other than the US.

Don't believe the BS stories that go around. The cartridge has numerous names, including .222 Special (that goes back a ways, and that name was never commercially used). Most manufacturers, of any firearm, also tell you not to use reloads, and many other things that are perfectly acceptable to do or use. They do that to protect themselves from lawsuits. Personal injury lawyers aren't the most ethical of the bunch. Some have been known to file pretty frivolous suits, the object to get the company to settle out of court for less money than it will take to defend the suit.

That small shop I know of? That's me. Green Mountain Ammo Co, LLC.

Here's what I recommend to use. Ammo made up with 64 gr Winchester Power Points. They feed fine through my AR, and my girlfriend's AR. We use them sometimes for deer hunting. Any varmint bullet or soft point is your best bet.

Break into my house, you'll be faced with an AR and either those 64 gr Win soft points, or M855 Ball (green tip FMJ). I'm very rural, over penetration isn't an issue.

[nmmi9100]

"I haven't a clue why you want 69 grains or heavier for defense.  They are likely to overpenetrate.  For defense, 55 grain varmint bullets are king.  Softpoints don't feed for crap out of an AR.  V-max and Ballistic tip with the plastic tips give you hollowpoint performance with FMJ-quality feeding."

Yep, I'm confused on that also. Any expanding bullet is more than enough for SD.

I don't know if they can be bought over the counter but many PD's are running Winchester Ranger 64gr Power Point rounds. I've been using these in my reloads. At least in my guns with 1:9  they've proven to be more accurate than others mentioned. I get slightly better groups with 68-69gr match bullets but not much.

NMMI, Feeding problems with SP bullets? I've fed thousands of rounds through 3 different guns of the Win PP's with never a hicup and 165gr Rem Core Lokt out of a  LR-10 with no issues.

Got EBR's stacked like cord wood but for SD, a single SA shotgun and serveral .45's make me sleep good......O.L.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#.223

I've had problems with Winchester Soft Points and 45 grain JHPs Failing-to-feed in a Bushy 16" carbine & a Colt MT6731.  No M4 feedramps, though.  Never have tried them in son's CMMG middy which has M4 feedramps, I think.  I say why take the chance...stick with polymer tips or OTM bullets in self-loaders.

We have children at home, 6 and 11.  They're both trained not to touch but to be safer, I have a pump shotgun that's trigger locked over the TV and a Garand that is unloaded but has clips in a buttstock pouch.  Hard for a kid to load a Garand.  I don't dare leave handguns around the house, other than the one I'm carrying.  When it comes to kids, Reagan's maxim comes to mind:  "Trust, but verify".

-David

[oladcock]

All DPMS on this end, 2-16" and a 20". Guess I won't buy no stinking Colt! Just kidding. What are you setting for OAL? I've run 55gr factory loads but never less then 60gr for the hand loads, all set to max mag length of 2.26". I don't know what the heck an M4 feed ramp is? These have 2 ramps, one on each side. I know some of the light bullet factory loads are much shorter then 2.26" and suspect that's the problem.....O.L.

[lprgcfrank]

I'm not sure if it's commercially available anymore but I use AA40 which is the frangible version of M855 ammo (same trajectory).  It's a 50 grain bullet,  Lake City cased and manufactured by Federal and Black Hills.  I find accuracy degrades after 75 yards - but since my house is well under 25m, it's not an issue there.

I used a round to show a non Appleseed class the importance of muzzle discipline by shooting a 1 gallon water jug at 5 yards.  The round entered the jug and the jug basically disintegrated.  There was no exit hole - all the energy was expended in the jug. 

Cartridge, 5.56mm Jacketed Frangible (DODIC AA40)
5.56mm Reduced Ricochet Limited Penetration (RRLP)

The Cartridge, 5.56mm Jacketed Frangible (DODIC AA40) is intended for use against personnel without collateral damage. It is intended to penetrate soft targets with the projectile breaking up on impact with hard targets. The DODIC AA40 consists of a brass cartridge case, a primer and propellant composition. The Jacketed Frangible cartridge contains a non-toxic, copper, tungsten powder and nylon binder designed to eliminates airborne lead and concerns for disposal. The copper alloy jacket eliminates barrel fouling and gas cutting into barrel and the double base propellant is clean burning.

The 5.56mm Reduced Ricochet Limited Penetration (RRLP) cartridge is 5.56mm Frangible ammunition, and is intended to be used in the 14½ inch barreled M4A1 carbine, the 20 inch barreled M16A2 rifle, and M249 Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW) or equivalents without modification.

[nmmi9100]

OL:

M4 feedramps are small cuts in the upper receiver that increase reliable feeding in carbines.  They have a corresponding receiver extension that has deeper feedramps to mesh with the cuts in the upper receiver.  Google M4 feedramps for more information.

I wasn't a handloader when I was into poodle shooters.  Don't have either of those 5.56 carbines anymore.  Only have two 5.56mm poodle shooters now, a Compass Lake Service Rifle and my 6-year-olds CMMG Mid-length carbine.

REAL rifles start at 6.5mm. 

-David

[oladcock]

IFranks, yep, we do the same water jug thing at 25yds in hunter ed classes, results are the same with SP and the plastic tipped .223 rounds. I don't like the concept of frangibles, might want to get through something heavier than a T-shirt.

David, was just trying to get across many of these guns will feed SP and HP rounds just fine. As with anything, a person needs to test SD rounds in their gun to be confident in their function, no matter what others experience has been.

Personally, if I have gun that won't feed any and all common factory ammo, it's a crappy design destine to be traded off FAST! ...O.L.

[Nickle]

FWIW, the two my g/f and I have are both 16" AR's, both Model 1 Sales barrels, hers on an unkown make, previously 20" AR upper, mine on an Anvil Arms upper. The lower doesn't have diddly to do with the feed ramps, just the barrel, and a little of the upper receiver. I've had zero problems with the 64 gr Win bullets.

Now, that AA40 Frangible ammo looks like the way to go if you're looking to limit colatteral damage.

[Piker]

Just use a Mosin-Nagant m44 for self defense rather than some mouse gun. You will not only dispatch the intruder, but you will set his clothes on fire and you have a bayonet as a back up.

Ammo is cheap and plentiful and you won't have Delta-L problems to worry about.

[Sly223]

GF,
I think you should study or research,the reloading aspect, then you can vary your different rounds and come up with different formulas.
Lime Vally Ammo. hooked me up with some Solid brass turned 45gr that are a little hot.
But all the store bought 55gr will work for self defense.
I use 75gr hpbt w/ 25gr Varget. Almost a laser!
I started my research a year in advance and even when you get down to the nitty grity you need an experienced Re-loader to look over your shoulder for a few rounds I still stay in contact and ask questions of those more knowledgable than myself. I experienced some problems,its part of the learning curve but it is important to get it right is why I did not just suggest jumping right into reloading.
It will not save you money right now, but you can hardly find better quality than you make for yourself.Good luck keep an open mind!
Actual home defense, mutiple invaders at point blank .44mag in nite stand to get to the 12ga. slug gun where i will utilize the safe for surplus and body Armor

[Old Dog]

At "self defense" ranges I'm not sure the bullet type matters on the target.  Those bullets are moving so fast and are so fragile (at handgun ranges - really, can you call 200 to 300 yds. self defense??) that even the fmj types don't hold together.  That was one of the appeals of the original 55 grain bullets - they fragmented at fairly close ranges.

As someone says on another forum - if you're threatened enough to feel the need to shoot, don't stop shooting until you no longer feel threatened.  Shoot till the threat is on the ground and no longer a threat.

The .223 was developed from the .222 Rem.  A varmint and target cartridge.  Don't expect a varmint/target cartridge (they wanted another 150 fps so they lengthened the case just enough to get enough powder to increase the muzzle velocity about 150 fps) to do the same a combat/deer/bear hunting cartridge will do - and compensate for it by using enough hits to end the threat.

Oh, years ago, they used to recommend that before you carry a handgun with a new type of ammo you should shoot at least a couple hundred rounds of it through your handgun to insure the gun works reliably with that ammo and to make sure you know where POI is vs. POA.  Its probably a good idea to do the same with rifle ammo in your personal rifle.

Some .223 marked rifles will chamber and fire 5.56X45 ammo just fine, some have issues.  Not all rifles (even if 10 are marked .223 some will have different chamber dimensions than others in that lot) are the same.

[Kentuckiana Jones]

I have gotten good results on game with hand loaded 65gr Sierra Game Kings (BTSP Spitzer profile)

I keep seven loaded 30 round PMags with the AR by my bedside.

[nemohunter]

IF i were to buy factory ammo for what you want i would look no further than Hornadys 60gr v-max load. i might just be the best thing going out there.