Author Topic: Temporarily Adaptive?  (Read 1707 times)

Offline The Log

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Temporarily Adaptive?
« on: March 10, 2011, 08:47:17 PM »
Odd question - I have a woman who would like to attend an AS, but she is recovering from rotator cuff surgery on both shoulders and is unable to raise her arms very high until she's finished recuperating in six months or so. Is there anything that Adaptive Appleseed can do for her to get her on the line sooner rather than later? I'm thinking mainly along the lines of techniques to get her shooting comfortably. Any ideas?

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Offline fprintf

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Re: Temporarily Adaptive?
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2011, 10:10:59 PM »
Log, I know who you are talking about. AWESOME venison stew from her at the last Appleseed.  Anyway I would think you would want to ask her what she things she can do and then adapt the steady hold factors for her current limitations. Would shooting all from prone on sandbags be possible?  Probably not. How about from sitting, or even a chair?  At an event last year there was a guy in a wheelchair that completed every AQT from sitting.  Sitting seems to be a position that has the arms/shoulders lower than most other positions.

One thing, when she is fully rehabilitated we'd want her to have learned enough to apply everything we standardly teach to her shooting.

I'm not sure shooting from a bench would be beneficial. This seems to be the only other alternative when not able to lift ones arms.
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Offline Unbridled Liberty

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Re: Temporarily Adaptive?
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2011, 10:11:20 PM »
I'm hoping the rest of the team will jump in here, but my first reaction is that this person does not qualify as an Adaptive shooter in terms of no fee and in terms of accommodations.  The reason is that the impairment is expected to be temporary.  Maybe others will have a different opinion, but that's mine.  

If it were me, I would just encourage her to wait until she is recovered before she attempts an Appleseed as a shooter.  I would also encourage her to come out to observe a little while she is in rehab.  If she really, really thinks she needs to shoot before she is recovered, I would encourage her to consult her physician and/or therapist regarding the possible safety implications (i.e. injury) from assuming the required positions, recoil, fatigue, etc.

Now to answer your question, the only time I can think of when a shooter has to lift an arm high is the chicken wing on the trigger arm during the standing position.  Can a person shoot standing without the chicken wing?  Yes, I think so, as long as they are shooting, say, a .22 rimfire and not an M1.  I hope that helps, but I'd really like some of the rest of the team to chime in too.

Offline Gordon

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Re: Temporarily Adaptive?
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2011, 11:22:16 PM »
I'm hoping the rest of the team will jump in here, but my first reaction is that this person does not qualify as an Adaptive shooter in terms of no fee and in terms of accommodations.  The reason is that the impairment is expected to be temporary.  Maybe others will have a different opinion, but that's mine. 

If it were me, I would just encourage her to wait until she is recovered before she attempts an Appleseed as a shooter.  I would also encourage her to come out to observe a little while she is in rehab.  If she really, really thinks she needs to shoot before she is recovered, I would encourage her to consult her physician and/or therapist regarding the possible safety implications (i.e. injury) from assuming the required positions, recoil, fatigue, etc.

Now to answer your question, the only time I can think of when a shooter has to lift an arm high is the chicken wing on the trigger arm during the standing position.  Can a person shoot standing without the chicken wing?  Yes, I think so, as long as they are shooting, say, a .22 rimfire and not an M1.  I hope that helps, but I'd really like some of the rest of the team to chime in too.

OK I'll "jump in here". Leaving aside the policy questions like Adaptive shooter fees, etc., I'll say this: I'd encourage her to show up and shoot, ready to adapt! Appleseed is about doing, and if she comes out as a shooter that's bound to be a richer experience than as an observer. Yes, your advice "encourage her to consult her physician ..." is quite prudent and I agree, and any SB (I suppose) should be aware of her condition and be very careful not to push her. But why not encourage her to show up and shoot however she can? Even if all from a chair with a bipod or something (I've actually seen this done, in Carmi).

I'm no SB but I'm pretty sure this all comes down to what the shooter is comfortable with (again, consultation w/ med. pro's is wise), and the SB might not know this fully until the shooter shows up on the line.

But I think she should be encouraged to "go for it" as much as reasonably possible. If she shoots all day from a chair, that's better than not shooting at all, IMO.

-- since you asked for folks to chime in,
-G.

Offline jmdavis

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Re: Temporarily Adaptive?
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2011, 11:31:05 PM »
Good advise Gordon. I would agree on all points.

Plus I love a good venison stew.


Mike
« Last Edit: March 10, 2011, 11:37:22 PM by jmdavis »
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Offline JustJeff

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Re: Temporarily Adaptive?
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2011, 12:11:57 AM »
I'm not a doctor, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express once.  I'll lay even money that if her physician knew she wanted to shoot, prior to full recovery, he/shed'd have a stroke.  If it were to be towards the end of her recovery period, while she's in physical therapy, he/she might not have issues with it.  Although the recoil from a .22 isn't much, and isn't really felt, it exists.  I don't believe it's in her best interest to have a constant tap-tap-tap on the are where she just had surgery until it gets to the point it's completely healed.  I also believe our insurance company might have issues with us knowingly allowing someone not fully recovered take a chance on re-injury.
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Offline Gordon

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Re: Temporarily Adaptive?
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2011, 01:26:38 AM »
I'm not a doctor, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express once.  I'll lay even money that if her physician knew she wanted to shoot, prior to full recovery, he/shed'd have a stroke.  If it were to be towards the end of her recovery period, while she's in physical therapy, he/she might not have issues with it.  Although the recoil from a .22 isn't much, and isn't really felt, it exists.  I don't believe it's in her best interest to have a constant tap-tap-tap on the are where she just had surgery until it gets to the point it's completely healed.  I also believe our insurance company might have issues with us knowingly allowing someone not fully recovered take a chance on re-injury.
My .00354 FRN worth.

"I'm not a doctor, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express once. " Well I've never even played a doctor on TV so I for-sure don't know.

Your sensitivity to the insurance issues is likely wise.

Once again, I'd hope that an SB worth his/her salt would (a) be well-informed of the situation ahead of time and (b) even if s/he were not "well informed" ahead of time, would have the sensitivity to recognize the situation at hand and "adapt" intelligently.

If the shooter can't shoot, then so be it, and let no one push her otherwise. But if (maybe) she can, then stay open to that possibility, get that American to the line, and teach. I still say that doing is better than saying, and by the same principle, having this person participate as a shooter (in whatever limited capacity) is more valuable than having her simply watch.

But bottom line, leave it to the shooter!

My soon-to-be-de-coupled-from-the-Chinese-Yuan's--- 0.02FRN'-and-falling's-worth,
-Gordon.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2011, 02:15:32 AM by Gordon »

Offline Ratchett

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Re: Temporarily Adaptive?
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2011, 02:19:57 AM »
Offering my .02

Medically it would depend the extent of repair done. Complete repair, I think recoil will be an issue. It has to be up to the shooter, but I would want medical clearance from her physician were I the shoot boss. If this person' s physician is good to go with her participation, I would let her try all 3 positions and find her comfort zone. If she is unable to do position shooting, set her up with a chair and mono or bi pod but get her shooting. A soft padding such as a small folded towel may be enough to soften recoil for comfort. Have her pace herself and sit out a few strings every once in awhile to avoid over stressing shoulders. Any increase in pain will more than likely show up during night or next day...kind of like a sunburn you won' t know til it is too late. Moderation especially her first shoot back in the saddle.

Insurance wise that is questionable. Any adaptive shooter could claim a re-injury, so I do not think that would be an issue---but I am not a legal expert. I suggest you look up the legal team in the new table and send a PM out to one of those folks.

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Offline The Log

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Re: Temporarily Adaptive?
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2011, 09:25:48 AM »
Wow! Nice response from the Adaptive crew, and thanks to all. Next time I see her I'll find out what her intentions are - I know she really wants to get on the line, and now that I'm armed with all this good info, I'll make sure she's aware of the issues. I hadn't even been thinking in terms of recoil on her shoulder - I was only concerned with her range of motion. But I see where a repetitive motion issue could arise. And I'll be sure to raise the insurance/legal issues on the appropriate threads.

Of course, with her mad cooking skills, maybe we want her to stay off the line for another shoot or two.... NAH!!

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Offline Unbridled Liberty

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Re: Temporarily Adaptive?
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2011, 09:13:37 PM »
Wow! Nice response from the Adaptive crew, and thanks to all...

Ditto!  That's what A.AS is all about.

Offline desertrat144

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Re: Temporarily Adaptive?
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2011, 10:24:11 PM »
OK, so what happened- did she shoot?  Qualify?  What happened?

Tom
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