Question for black powder guys

[Son of Martha]

Found a neat link:

http://www.musketeer.ch/blackpowder/recipe.html

From the link,

The role of Sulfur in black powder

Contemplating the diagram in Fig. 1, you might ask yourself, why on earth did our ancestors take the trouble to add sulfur at all? That idea first occured to the Swiss artillery in 1875, when "smokeless black powder" was tested. Firing salvos out of a fortification soon made the enemy invisible, due to the heavy smoke of the hefty loads of cannons. Since those tests were done on the eve of the "white-powder" era, the findings soon became obsolete.

A sulfur-free black powder yields only little smoke. When it is used in a rifle, you see only a faint fog. When fired by a percussion rifle, the ignition poses no problems. From by flint lock, you will get lots of misfires.

So I tested the ignition temperature of (homemade) black powders by increasing the temperature in a laboratory oven in increments of 10°C and found the purpose of sulfur in the black powder mixture:


Ignition Temperatures:
S'peter       Char-
coal
      Sulfur    Ignition-Temp.
100 p    -    13 p    -    12 p    300 °C
100 p    -    27 p    -    0 p    440 °C

p = parts

So it appears the sole purpose of sulfur in a black powder mixture is the reduction of the ignition temperature! Note: A good priming powder has allways a high sulfur concentration.

So, anyone ever tried sulferless BP?  Sounds like it would be an interesting experiment.

SoM

[Andre]

Thanks for the link.  Makes for some interesting things to ponder.
I use the holy black for both the handload in the barrel, & for 45 Colt. 

So, anyone ever tried sulferless BP?  Sounds like it would be an interesting experiment.

Guess I've never heard of sulfurless BP.  Have occasionally been inquisitive about making my own BP (probably brought on by the musings of the Bevel Brothers - from Muzzle Blasts fame), but haven't been that adventuresome yet.   

Andre

[Scarecrow]

Thanks for passing this knowledge.
Good info.
I have a flintlock rifle so sulfur-less is a wash there.
My other front stuffer is a modern inline using Triple 7 and small rifle primers held in .25 acp cases.
I could try it in this one if I found a local source.

[Son of Martha]

Anyone?

Inquiring minds want to know...

SoM

[jmdavis]

Never Tried it. I've always used Elephant, Goex or Swiss. I do notice that the swiss tends to burn cleaner and that has made me wonder what formula they use.


Mike

[asminuteman]

.

[mtmisfit]

never ran non-sulphur BP in a firearm, but have experimented with it for use in fireworks. As stated the sulphur makes it easier to ignite, but the charcoal is the key to how powerful the BP is. (also to the quantity/characteristics of the fouling)

Venture over into the pyro world for info on BP, they use more of it than anyone else on earth.

[didactic]

   Y'all be careful, now, formulating your own black powder.   

Back in the day, when the DuPonts had their powder factories (in Delaware?), the mill buildings had three stone walls and one wooden wall facing the water, so when the mills blew up, a more or less regular occurrance, they only killed one employee and only destroyed one wall of the mill house.  So production could resume pretty promptly and at minimal cost.

So consider yourselves warned!

I shoot black powder, but would proceed with EXTREME CAUTION (like a total refusal to even try) in experimenting with trying to manufacture it, or change any formulation!

What do those books about dangerous subjects say?  "For academic purposes only" or some such disclaimer?  Maybe this thread ought to have the same one!

[douglas34474]

When I was a kid we made our own BP all the time. Blew up just about anything we could.

Probably be labeled as terrorists today.

[LittleMo]

Another black powder question...

Where can one get real black powder - not a substitute? Of the web sites I have checked out (Grafs, etc) require a minimum order of five (5) 1 lb cans of black powder. I have checked a few local FFLs (upstate NY) and they do not carry it. I can get substitutes locally and on the Internet. I'm just getting into BP and was thinking to keep it (BP shooting) authentic and shoot the real stuff. More curious than anything else.

Gary

[TimBeatty]

Gary

I buy Goex Black Power at Bass Pro shops. You have to ask for it since its locked up in the back and NOT on display. They almost always have ff fff ffff in stock.

[Pitmaster]

Www.powderinc.com is where I buy mine.

[yellowhousejake]

I've done it, though not the sulferless (on purpose, we ran low on sulfer once but were too stupid too notice if it made made much difference.) It is dangerous if you are not careful and precise. But it makes great stuff if done right. Our biggest problem was good charcoal with the right amount of moisture. I know how to make better charcoal now but I don't have the time to mess with it. IME, the source wood used for the charcoal made all the difference, I liked willow.

YHJ

[mtmisfit]

  Y'all be careful, now, formulating your own black powder.   

Back in the day, when the DuPonts had their powder factories (in Delaware?), the mill buildings had three stone walls and one wooden wall facing the water, so when the mills blew up, a more or less regular occurrance, they only killed one employee and only destroyed one wall of the mill house.  So production could resume pretty promptly and at minimal cost.

So consider yourselves warned!

I shoot black powder, but would proceed with EXTREME CAUTION (like a total refusal to even try) in experimenting with trying to manufacture it, or change any formulation!

What do those books about dangerous subjects say?  "For academic purposes only" or some such disclaimer?  Maybe this thread ought to have the same one!

Your prejudice is showing. At least you have the good sense to not try something you're not familiar with.

Chemistry books and the Pyro books do not have such disclaimers.  They are legitimate texts concerning a legal hobby.

The Black Books, Anarchists Cookbook, etc all carry that disclaimer.  There is a difference.

Many tons of BP are safely manufactured by hobbyists every year. In fact BP is one of the safest energetic compounds used by pyrotechnic hobbyists.

As for Dupont, they made BP in very large quantities, BP will detonate unconfined in quantities greater than ~800 lbs. They also made BP using a substitute nitrate, which made it more powerful. In the span of about a century they had 288 explosions and 228 deaths. One of the more serious accidents (multiple deaths) happened while packing the BP into barrels, IIRC there was 20 tons of BP in the packing building when it exploded. Everything about their explosives facility was designed to minimize the damage/death in the event of an explosion.

Even without the other chemicals charcoal dust is explosive, in a mill dust explosions are a major hazard.  FWIW a lot of grain mills blew up too.

If you're tired of paying $20/lb for BP, get yourself an ATF limited use permit and start buying it in bulk boxes. (25lb) Get real familiar with the "Orange Book" if you decide to go that route.

Yes, this is a hot button issue that needs to be addressed with education. Please take this post as an attempt at a teaching moment.

mtmisfit

[LittleMo]

Gary
I buy Goex Black Power at Bass Pro shops. You have to ask for it since its locked up in the back and NOT on display. They almost always have ff fff ffff in stock.

The nearest Bass Pro to me is about 150 miles away. But I go by there about once a month or so. I'll have to stop by there at the end of this month to see if that store carries BP.

Www.powderinc.com is where I buy mine.

Powderinc.com is one of those sites that requires a minimum of five 1 lb cans per order.
http://www.powderinc.com/catalog/order.htm

Thanks for the info!

Gary

[TimBeatty]

Call them first and ask. Make sure the person on the phone works at the gun counter actually know what you want.