"Winterseed" event

[4bfox]

Check it out....our first "Winterseed" event!  

http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=13007.0%3C/td%3E%3Ctd%3E

[Fred]

      I hope you will be including a "snow date" in event of bad weather in your flyer for this event, along with an admonition, if the weather looks problematic as the date approaches, to be alert for an email confirming or postponing to the snow date - and said email will go out on or about noon of Friday, the day before the event.

      I'd also suggest an updated "Winterseed list" of what to bring and how to prepare, emphasizing (as necessary) tarps for windbreaks and ground cover, EZups, heaters, extra blankets, snowblowers(!), snow plows, etc - the notion is to make this a partnership with the students, as under adverse conditions everyone has to work together to make it happen.

       Let's not overemphasize the difficulties, but let's not underemphasize them - let's make sure these events take place even if the weather is bad. Postponement "because the weather is bad" should not be for cold etc, but solely if it looks like a pending snow storm or ice storm will make travel especially hazardous.

       It'll be up to local guys with local experience to make that call. Any snow in NC and you about have to cancel, as snow plowing is slow and minimum. Up north, it would take a major snow storm to shut down travel, and you'd have an Appleseed under conditions us southerners would not even think of trying.

[4bfox]

Excellent counsel....thanks!

[gpbbiker]

Ahh.... Winter in Kansas. Early December no less! 
That means we could have Rain and wind, or Snow and wind, or Ice and wind, Cold and wind, Colder and wind, or any combination of these with more wind!!
The trick to surviving in Kansas, is to stay dry, and stop the wind! Do that and the rest is easy!! So when you are thinking about clothes, think as wind proof as possible. That will make staying warm do-able!
No big deal, you just need to think about it in advance. Find out why cotton is such a deadly winter fabric!
It will be a Hoot!!

[JustJeff]

The trick to surviving in Kansas, is to stay dry, and stop the wind! Do that and the rest is easy!! So when you are thinking about clothes, think as wind proof as possible.

A lot of folks think they need the high dollar Gore-Tex clothes to keep warm and dry....
I've always found that the G.I. rainsuits (rubberized jacket and rubberized overalls) were cheap and worked really well to keep the wind and cold at bay.  Just have to be careful not to sweat too much in them.

[The ][rishman]

Yes, all good things to consider.  Even Carharts will freeze up in the "right" conditions.  One good thing about the Eureka range is we have shelters to go into to warm up during teaching times.  I will bring a few camp stove for people to use for hot beverages and lunch.  Any body have a big soup pot.  I bet we can use the kitchen as well and have some soup made for those who are brave enough to show up.  I am pumped!  Thanks Ben for heading this up and making it happen.

][

[gpbbiker]

Have soup pot, will travel!
Give me a number and I can put something together!
I am an old hand at feeding and keeping people warm out in the middle of nowhere!!

[4bfox]

I've got a 2-burner stove....I think we'll be using the "Retreat" center for history/education/eating/sleeping/etc.

[rboatright]

high 35 low 15 is the most typical weather for that day in southeast Kansas.

Winds 15 to 30 mph. 

FUN day to lay out the ground out doors.  Windproofs critical over whatever  you wear. 

[AnnieOakley]

Any ideas for keeping your fingers warm on a day like that, while still being able to load and shoot? 

[The ][rishman]

There are a few things that help on cold days.  Gloves are the obvious.  A burn barrel is always welcome.  I plan to fill a water cooler with hot water to wash your hands in.  Sheer luxury (for all you Python fans).  Chemical pocket warmers are nice and can be picked up at the sporting goods stores.

Just remember "Cotton Kills".  Wool, silk, or manmade fibers will retain heateven when wet.


][

[lprgcfrank]

the chemical heat packs at any sporting goods store work just fine - keep them in your pockets or in your gloves.  I always bring extras.
The foot warmer heat packs work nicely too!

[Wheeler44]

Just remember "Cotton Kills".  Wool, silk, or manmade fibers will retain heateven when wet.

As with most subjects, generalities are somewhat incorrect. I especially like my waxed cotton duck foul weather gear and my cotton flannel underwear and outer wear ( I think most PNW "seeders wouldn't recognize me without my green flannel shirt and Filson rain hat). I work outdoors most days and in the most inclement weather.

Good luck with your "winterseed"
W44

[henschman]

The mittens with flip-up finger covers are nice for shooting in the cold... you can flip up the finger cover when you need to shoot, and when you are done, cover your fingers right back up.  Cold-weather shooting really incentivizes firing every shot rapid fire... the sooner those little grey AQT men are perforated, the sooner you can get back to warming up!

I may come up and "chill" with you guys, depending on our own winterseed schedule down in sunny Oklahoma! 

[The ][rishman]

Wet flanel = warm and toasty.  Try it.  Anyone who has will tell you - bad juju.

Specifically for this subject: wet.  Not the generalities you speak of.  Waxed or oiled cotton duck works great at shedding water: ergo it does not get wet.

Now I don't claim to know what the weather is like in the PNW.  But I am familiar with the weather here in the plains.  Storms can brew up in a matter of minutes seemingly out of nowhere.  I have seen temp drops of 20 degrees in a matter of seconds.  40-50 mph winds here in the plains.  Wet cotton clothes and no shelter means death.  Cotton can keep you warm in certain conditions.  But you can keep it.  It does not retain heat when wet and or sweaty.  Better to be prepared for possible inclement weather.

][

Just remember "Cotton Kills".  Wool, silk, or manmade fibers will retain heat even when wet.

As with most subjects, generalities are somewhat incorrect. I especially like my waxed cotton duck foul weather gear and my cotton flannel underwear and outer wear ( I think most PNW "seeders wouldn't recognize me without my green flannel shirt and Filson rain hat). I work outdoors most days and in the most inclement weather.

Good luck with your "winterseed"
W44

[ksuguy]

Maybe we can add a little segment about some cold weather revolutionary history, like Valley Forge or crossing the Delaware and the battle of Trenton.

[4bfox]

Yeah, I had my extremities frostbitten too many times in an ill-spent youth while pursuing the wily duck. Ah, the good old days..wading through ice-crusted water to place decoys, with a "brisk" wind blowing freezing rain in your face...ah well, I digress.

Nope, when I go out in the cold these days, I've got the lightest, warmest high-tech stuff I can get...don't know if I'm smarter, or just don't like to be cold?

[4bfox]

Yeah, I had my extremities frostbitten too many times in an ill-spent youth while pursuing the wily duck. Ah, the good old days..wading through ice-crusted water to place decoys, with a "brisk" wind blowing freezing rain in your face...ah well, I digress.

Nope, when I go out in the cold these days, I've got the lightest, warmest high-tech stuff I can get...don't know if I'm smarter, or just don't like to be cold?

That's a GOOD idea...I read the re-released "Private Yankee Doodle" a while back...talk about COLD, most of those poor guys were half-naked, let alone warm in any sense of the word....

[gpbbiker]

Before we digress into the Functional equivalent of "Tastes Great/Less Filling" arguments of Cotton vs. the world, it might be worthwhile to talk about WHY we like cotton next to the skin. First and foremost, cotton is a great fiber. It is strong, easily milled. It can be spun into a variety of textures and thicknesses. It will hold its shape pretty well when wet and will hold a ton of moisture. This is why we like it! It takes the moisture away from our skin, holds it, and lets it evaporate slowly keeping us dry and cool in the spring, summer and fall.
It is also precisely these features that will cause hypothermia in cold, wet conditions. The ability of cotton to hold moisture and evaporate causing evaporative cooling works wonders when it is warm. The bad part is, is does precisely the same thing when it's damp and or wet and cold!
Cotton underwear is designed to keep you warm by trapping warm air and holding it in its fibers due to a feature known as "loft"; lots of air space trapped between stiff fibers. Only one problem here, cotton's ability to hold moisture comes at the expense of "loft". Cotton fibers expand as they wick up moisture. The more moisture, the bigger the fiber, the bigger the fiber the less space available for trapped air. Get enough moisture and the fiber starts to collapse and Voila! No insulation from trapped air at all! Plus it still acts as an evaporative cooler!
So in cold temps when you are trying to stay warm, damp and wet cotton will only do what it does naturally, cool you off more. Add to this the increased affects of wind on evaporation, and you can see how damp or wet cotton is not conducive to long term winter survival.
My son the white water rafter/mountain climber/ski instructor/wilderness EMT will regale you with stories of skiers and the like with high $$$$ Gore-Tex down filled Hi-Tech  outfits who were slowly freezing to death cuz they were wearing Wet Cotton Underwear.
So if you plan on staying dry, having breathable fabrics that won't allow condensation to form, Cotton will be just dandy! The flip side of that coin is, getting wet, either from precipitation or condensation inside a waterproof/air proof suit with lots of activity; you will be in trouble with cotton.
Then we need to talk about why Wool is such a great fabric and the miracle of spun Polypropylene!!

[Wheeler44]

Before we digress into the Functional equivalent of "Tastes Great/Less Filling" arguments of Cotton vs. the world, it might be worthwhile to talk about WHY we like cotton next to the skin

Sorry That I brought it up..
All of you Kansas shooters...Cotton only between Memorial day and Labor day..After that you will freeze to death if you even look at the stuff..

W44

Pics of our last shoot of the Summer here....http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=16955.0

[4bfox]

The mittens with flip-up finger covers are nice for shooting in the cold... you can flip up the finger cover when you need to shoot, and when you are done, cover your fingers right back up.  Cold-weather shooting really incentivizes firing every shot rapid fire... the sooner those little grey AQT men are perforated, the sooner you can get back to warming up!

I may come up and "chill" with you guys, depending on our own winterseed schedule down in sunny Oklahoma!  

THAT'S what I like....motivated shooters! What's this "sunny Oklahoma" stuff? You guys get your share of freezing rain, sleet, etc....just like we do...I'd rather have the snow.

[gpbbiker]

I was in Oklahoma once! I was standing on the road outside of Hutchinson, Kansas one fine spring morning and it came up to meet me! The rolling cloud of dirt being pushed on a 50+ MPH southwest wind had a most peculiar reddish tint and a distinct salt and alkali taste to it.

Ahh.... the bane of Great Plains weather. Kinda tuff to explain to folks who don't live here. They tend to think we just make this stuff up. Just Ask Pop what a "cold blue norther" is !!

Good Book to read about this; "The Worst Hard Time" My 87 year old mother ran into a woman in Chicago who had read the book and just assumed it was fiction! She assured her, that it was in fact, most assuredly NOT fiction! The woman simply could not/would not believe that things were that bad in 1936.

[henschman]

OOOOOOOOO-klahoma where the gale-force wind comes sweeping down the wet and freezing plains!

Yeah, oklahoma is sunny in the winter... just for long enough to entice you outdoors, so it can drop 30 degrees and dump sleet all over you.   

[AFTERMATH]

I hope you will be including a "snow date" in event of bad weather in your flyer for this event, along with an admonition, if the weather looks problematic as the date approaches, to be alert for an email confirming or postponing to the snow date - and said email will go out on or about noon of Friday, the day before the event.

What exactly would constitute a snow cancellation?
Said snow date may have to be several weeks after; as most likely someone who's made all the plans for one weekend probably did so by shifting responsibilities to the next.  I would expect any snow cancellation to cut final attendance in half.

[4bfox]

OOOOOOOOO-klahoma where the gale-force wind comes sweeping down the wet and freezing plains!

Yeah, oklahoma is sunny in the winter... just for long enough to entice you outdoors, so it can drop 30 degrees and dump sleet all over you.   

You got it, brother! I can still recall a couple of "white-knucklers" driving home over the holidays from Missouri, after visiting relatives....stopping every 5 miles or so to chip ice off the windshield, because the defroster couldn't keep up.

[jollybfd]

Don't know if any of you get Backwoods Home magazine, but this month's issue has a great article on winter/cold weather shooting.  When I get more time I'll try to post some of the tips.

[gpbbiker]

Cold weather shooting; a topic that has probably started as many bar brawls as "The BEST Cartridge is...".
One man's "Cold" is another man's "Let's go!!" so in the course of this discussion it might be useful to say, at 20, 10, zero, -10, -20 my rifle does this and here's why. I personally can tell you that oil on a firing pin at Zero does not work well! For the same reasons your car is hard to turn over at that temp!!
The probability of Zero in the first week of December in Kansas is unlikely, but January is coming!
Back when I was doing Cold Weather stuff with Boy Scouts I gave each boy a required reading assignment. They HAD to read Jack London's "To Build a Fire". It is one of the best descriptions of freezing to death ever written.  I made them read it not so much because of the narrative, but because it was the Character's THINKING that killed him, not the cold.
If you have not read it, I suggest you do so.  Winterseed in Kansas, in December! It will probably be the inverse of our RBC in July!! Yahooo!!!!!

[4bfox]

ONE thing I like about winter...at least you can put more clothes on...

[4bfox]

Here's the first "Winterseed" flyer I worked up for the December 4th shoot....

[ksuguy]

Wish I could go.  However, my girlfriend's brother is getting married that day and I'm supposed to be an usher in the wedding.   Hope you guys have fun!