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what to expect?

Started by cylarz, August 20, 2010, 04:36:07 AM

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cylarz

This is a really dumb question, I'm sure, but I'm brand-new to Appleseed and am still trying to figure out if it's for me.

I have read through some of the forum postings aimed at new and prospective attendees & members, and while there seems to be plenty of information on what to bring (and what rifle to bring), I can't seem to get a description of what to expect at an Appleseed event. Do we shoot ALL day long? Is there some kind of classroom-type instruction? Where does the Rev. War history part factor-in? Are there individual shooting matches and events during a weekend-long event and how are they organized?

And finally, what's the difference between a weekend event and the "boot camp?" What are the hours each day for both? Do people typically take an entire week off of work for this?

I'm sure all this was covered someplace in an FAQ, but darned if I can find it. Please help.

Rocket Man

The only dumb question is the one you don't ask.  Welcome.

You can expect to shoot pretty much all day long.  We start at 8:30 AM, go through safety, get your spot on the line set up etc., and then start putting rounds downrange by say 9:15 or 9:30.  We'll break for an hour or so at lunch, finish up about 4:30 and then start cleaning up.  Sometimes the start and end times vary depending on the range, but the above is typical.

We shoot about 5 or 10 rounds at a time, depending on the particular exercise we're working on, and take breaks between each series to go over new instruction and analyze our targets.  On each day the total will be about 250-300 rounds.  That may not seem like a lot, but it is a significant amount of exercise, and every single round counts.  A Rifleman does not waste ammunition! 8)  It's important to pace yourself, and you can always sit out a turn or two if you need it.  Come prepared for weather, bring snacks, water, sunscreen, etc.  It's supposed to be fun, and it's not fun -- and you won't learn anything -- if it hurts too much.

The instruction is "classroom" like except our classroom is usually right there next to the range.  For example, one point of instruction would be demonstrating and explaining the proper form and important features -- called "Steady Hold Factors" -- for the prone position.  So after we finish a course of fire, clear the line and make all rifles safe, the students will gather round while instructors show the position and describe it, take questions, and then the students will go back to the line and try it for themselves.  The "classroom" periods are short, and there are quite a few of them.

Revolutionary War history and American Heritage is concentrated during lunch, but we will also cover topics of inspiration and things important to us throughout the day.  You will probably find that the heritage discussions actually get you fired up and shooting better, and after shooting you may find yourself going to the library to read up more on history.  They go together like Apple pie and ice cream.   :))

There are no shooting matches per se at an Appleseed -- there is no competition except with yourself.  After we finish instruction, we will start shooting Army Qualification Tests, or AQT's, which are special targets, timed, in four stages of ten rounds each, and provide an aggregate score.  The AQT is similar to some kinds of match shooting, but we do it for fun and to test all of the various shooting skills together.  The only "award" we give is the Rifleman Patch, which is earned by a score of 210 or more out of 250 points possible on an AQT.  But it's just a goal.  Improving your skills, being inspired, having fun is what matters.

"Boot Camps" are special week-long events that go into much more detail.  These are not the same as the normal weekend Appleseeds.  The "Boot Camps" usually have similar hours but each one is special, depending on what the range can support.  Some attendees will take off an entire week and some will camp at the site. 

Hope that answers your questions.  Keep them coming.
... if ever a mistaken complaisance leads them to sacrifice their privileges, or the well-meaning assertors of them, they will deserve bondage, and soon will find themselves in chains. -- Joseph Warren (anon)

cylarz

We shoot about 5 or 10 rounds at a time, depending on the particular exercise we're working on, and take breaks between each series to go over new instruction and analyze our targets.  On each day the total will be about 250-300 rounds

This raises another question for me. 300 rounds?

I notice that Appleseed doesn't seem to be too picky about what kind of rifle is brought, as long as it's .32/8mm or smaller. Okay. I've got an old Yugo 8mm Mauser. As you probably know, that's a bolt action rifle, and it kicks harder than any kind of semi-automatic. Even with a recoil pad, my shoulder would be pretty doggone sore after firing that many rounds. (I find I've usually had enough of that gun after 100 or less.) Is it common for people to actually fire that many shots with that kind of rifle?

I thought about bringing an SKS instead, since that's less kick. Or even my .22 semi-auto. Thoughts?

What kind/style/type of rifle is MOST COMMONLY seen at these kinds of events?


eaglescouter

The most common rifle at a California Appleseed is a magazine fed 22 caliber rimfire rifle. 

Bolt action or semi auto does not matter if you can operate it effeciently.
Iron sights or scope does not matter if you can see your target

Please ensure that the rifle has a front sling swivel for a 1.25" military web sling (slings available in the appleseed store).

On Sunday at many venues we do known distance shooting, this is where the center fire rifle is a very interesting choice.
Old Guy:  Do it long enough and you get really good at it.

Rifleman:  Sacramento:  Four Ought Nine
Full Distance:  Red Bluff:  What year was that?
Pistoleer™:  Hat Creek:  Three Twenty One

Make yourselves good scouts and good rifle shots in order to protect the women and children of your country if it should ever become necessary.
--Lord Baden-Powell
Scouting for Boys (1908)

Rocket Man

#4
Quote from: cylarz on August 20, 2010, 04:16:09 PMThis raises another question for me. 300 rounds?

I notice that Appleseed doesn't seem to be too picky about what kind of rifle is brought, as long as it's .32/8mm or smaller. Okay. I've got an old Yugo 8mm Mauser. As you probably know, that's a bolt action rifle, and it kicks harder than any kind of semi-automatic. Even with a recoil pad, my shoulder would be pretty doggone sore after firing that many rounds. (I find I've usually had enough of that gun after 100 or less.) Is it common for people to actually fire that many shots with that kind of rifle?

I thought about bringing an SKS instead, since that's less kick. Or even my .22 semi-auto. Thoughts?

What kind/style/type of rifle is MOST COMMONLY seen at these kinds of events?

Yup, eaglescouter's got it.  About 90% of the rifles we see on the line are .22's, most commonly Ruger 10/22, Marlin 60 or 795, or bolt actions like Savage or CZ. 

Among center-fire rifles, most common are Mini-14's and AR-15 types.  Also some lever-action .357's, SKS's, Mosin-Nagants, Garands, etc.

We will teach you how to shoot your rifle better.  We don't want to make too many restrictions on what you can bring.  But given the choice, the best rifle to bring is an autoloading, magazine-fed .22LR, with a good sling and good sights (telescopic if you need it -- most people don't).

If you wanted, you could bring your .22 and your SKS, or your 8mm Mauser.  That way you have a backup in case your .22 breaks down, and when you feel like you've got the hang of it  -- or for known distance if available at that particular range -- you can switch to the other rifle.  Lots of folks do this. 

When I first attended I primarily used my Marlin 70 and later switched to my AR-15.  In your case I would heartily recommend bringing both your .22 and your SKS.  Both will perform well, both are autoloaders so they'll behave somewhat the same.

But, I have seen people spend all weekend banging away with Mosins or Garands.  If you've got the ammo to spare, it can be done.   :---
 
... if ever a mistaken complaisance leads them to sacrifice their privileges, or the well-meaning assertors of them, they will deserve bondage, and soon will find themselves in chains. -- Joseph Warren (anon)

cylarz

Is the AR-15 legal in California? I assume it would be w/ a 10-round magazine, correct?

eaglescouter

Quote from: cylarz on August 20, 2010, 08:02:59 PM
Is the AR-15 legal in California? I assume it would be w/ a 10-round magazine, correct?

Great question.  There are listed lowers that are banned, there are offlist lowers that are not banned.  There are 'evil features' that are banned, even if they are on an offlist lower.  If you have questions I would suggest http://www.calguns.net/ as a potential resource.  Do not bring a firearm to an Appleseed unless it is legal in that state.
Old Guy:  Do it long enough and you get really good at it.

Rifleman:  Sacramento:  Four Ought Nine
Full Distance:  Red Bluff:  What year was that?
Pistoleer™:  Hat Creek:  Three Twenty One

Make yourselves good scouts and good rifle shots in order to protect the women and children of your country if it should ever become necessary.
--Lord Baden-Powell
Scouting for Boys (1908)

Rocket Man

Quote from: cylarz on August 20, 2010, 08:02:59 PM
Is the AR-15 legal in California? I assume it would be w/ a 10-round magazine, correct?

Just so we are clear, I Am Not A Lawyer, and nothing I type should be construed as reliable legal advice.   @&)

AR-15's are perfectly legal in California IF:

1.  They were owned in California before the end of 1999 and registered with CA DOJ before the end of 2000, OR

2.  They do not meet the California legal definition of an Assault Rifle, i.e they do not incorporate a specially banned receiver, and contain none of the following:  Pistol grip or thumbhole stock, flash suppressor, grenade launcher, bayonet lug, or telescoping stock.  This also only applies to rifles with detachable magazines or fixed magazines with capacities higher than 10 rounds.

What is typically done instead is to get an AR-15 with the "Bullet Button," i.e. requiring a special tool (such as a bullet) to remove the magazines; or to modify one with a MonsterMan Grip or similar product to eliminate the pistol grip.  These rifles will not have flash suppressors / muzzle brakes, bayonet lugs, etc., but are otherwise basically the same as AR-15's.

The ten-round magazine limit is not limited to AR-15's, but applies to all firearms in California as far as I know, unless you legally owned them prior to the ban.  All of the Appleseed courses of fire work just fine with 10-round magazines (or even with Garand 8-round enbloc clips for that matter) so you can leave those at home, you won't miss them.

You can go to pretty much any gun store in California and buy a Californized AR-15 from Colt, Armalite, DPMS, and so on.  We see lots of them on the line.  The only real problem is if you try to bring in a noncompliant AR-15 from out of state.  If you want to attempt that, you need to take a much more careful look at our state laws.  http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/regagunfaqs.php is one place to start.
... if ever a mistaken complaisance leads them to sacrifice their privileges, or the well-meaning assertors of them, they will deserve bondage, and soon will find themselves in chains. -- Joseph Warren (anon)

demnogis

Quote from: cylarz on August 20, 2010, 08:02:59 PMIs the AR-15 legal in California? I assume it would be w/ a 10-round magazine, correct?

As stated above... Calguns.net is your friend in regards to CA Legal AR/AK type rifles.

Memorandum regarding Off-List AR and AK type rifles
California AR/AK "Series" Assault Weapon FAQ
California Centerfire, Semi-Auto Rifle Identification Flowchart

I would suggest not letting this discussion get off track from what is really needed at an AS to what one "wants" in terms of toys at an AS. Indeed, if you bring an AR or AK, we'll probably put you on the far side of the range because no-one will want to be catching your brass or feeling the muzzle blast.

If you don't have a .22 mag-fed Auto-loader, ask for one! Quite a few of Instructors and IITs bring our rifles, knowing very well once you don the Colored Hat™ your time on the range is reserved for demos and "getting in the dirt" with shooters to help them get better. The only ammo we use is the ammo we give away **)
Demnogis, Dem, Brando, B, Moe's son... Any of these work.

Freeman

This may be helpful as well:
California Assault Weapons ID Flowchart
http://www.calguns.net/caawid/flowchart.pdf
Freeman
n.
1. A person not in slavery or serfdom.
2. One who possesses the rights or privileges of a citizen.

"Liberty is not a means to a political end. It is itself the highest political end." – Lord Acton

Appleseed: The only program endorsed by the Founding Fathers and GSG9.
.

Mr. Ard

Get a semi auto 22 and a couple of magazines.  I shot my AR at the AS I attended and could have bought a 22 and ammo for what I spent in 223.  I have since bought a 22 and will be taking it out to the next AS I plan to attend.

As to the question of what to expect.  Expect that you won't really understand all of the info that is put out on the first day, it starts to gel on the second day when you are shooting AQT's the whole time. I was pretty frustrated by the end of the first day because there was a ton of info and not enough time to practice it until I felt reasonably comfortable with it before we moved on to the next thing. You'll get plenty of practice on day two.

I ended up having a great time and my shooting improved significantly in the first few minutes of the first day.