News:

We need volunteers in sales, marketing, PR, IT, and general "running of an organization." 
Maximize your Appleseed energy to make this program grow, and help fill the empty spots
on the firing line!  An hour of time spent at this level can have the impact of ten or a
hundred hours on the firing line.  Want to help? Send a PM to Monkey!

Main Menu

M1 Garand illegal in New York City

Started by ChevalierdeJohnstone, August 27, 2010, 05:26:31 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

ChevalierdeJohnstone

Like some others, I've had questions regarding registration of an M1 Garand for New York City residents.

I think I've found the answer (No.) 

(Cross-posted at CMP Forums/CMP General/Ask Each Other/If I was to purchase M1 Garand):

I spoke with Mr. Michaels [the COO of CMP], who was very helpful and considerate but couldn't answer questions about local NYC laws.  Apparently CMP has never shipped a Garand to New York City before.  Could I be the first?

I then spoke to the good people at the NYC rifle permit bureau.  They really are helpful and considerate people, despite the unconstitutional nature of their jobs.  It is really too bad that law enforcement is required to infringe constitutional rights in order to comply with their orders and do their jobs.  Of course we don't want LE picking and choosing which laws they want to enforce - at least, I don't - so I appreciate their dilemma.  And their service.

The answer is: You may not legally possess a working M1 Garand in New York City.

Why is the Garand illegal in New York City?  Because the M-5 Bayonet attaches to the gas cylinder lock screw.  In New York City, a rifle with a "bayonet mount" is defined as an "assault weapon" and is banned.  It does not matter whether or not you actually stick a bayonet on there, only that you could do so. 

You _can_ legally possess an M1 Garand in New York City if you take this unique piece of U.S. history and destroy the barrel or firing mechanism so it can't shoot.  (PLEASE don't anyone do that.)  Would this prevent you from attaching a bayonet - the reason this model rifle is illegal?  No.  But your rifle-shaped pike would now be "legal".

Is anyone else now interested in whether or not a hunting rifle with a pocketknife taped to the barrel counts as an "assault weapon"?  (Shh!  Everyone keep your 100mhr tape separate from your guns!)

Rocket Man

That's bogus.

Couldn't you grind the bayonet lug off of the gas cylinder assembly?  The thought makes me cringe, but it'd be better than deactivating the rifle entirely.

I'm in CA, so I sympathize with your silly laws...
... if ever a mistaken complaisance leads them to sacrifice their privileges, or the well-meaning assertors of them, they will deserve bondage, and soon will find themselves in chains. -- Joseph Warren (anon)

SamD

That's OK
NYC is illegal in New Mexico

PHenry

ChevalierdeJohnstone,
PM and I will tell you a story about pocket knives and NYC that is yet unresolved.  :wb:

I have a very nice rental down here in Sunshine state that should be vacant December 1st. - we are completely M1 Garand-friendly here sir.  ^-^
Para ser Libre, un Hombre debe tener tres cosas. La Tierra, una Educacion, y un Fusil. Siempre, un Fusil!  Emiliano Zapata

JustJeff

Quote from: SamD on August 28, 2010, 12:06:37 PM
That's OK
NYC is illegal in New Mexico


**) ::)  New Yorkers and Californians who are new here are amazed by the fact that they can 'open carry' most places in NM (very short list of prohibited areas) and that they can go to the gun-shop or a gun-show and walk out with just about any rifle, shotgun, or handgun they care to buy (as long as they claim NM residency and have a NM Drivers License).  You should see the wide-eyed amazement on their faces when educated on this :D
Your version of "ineffective" does not necessarily reflect the truth....
Having been "ineffectively" taught to the Rifleman Standard and having been "ineffectively" taught to teach others to the Rifleman Standard, I believe I prefer the "ineffective" over the other choice.

SamD

Not intending to disparage NYC, I sure hope you folks get an handle on it soon.

Every time I think of NYC I am reminded of two things
#1 Jack Dempseys, which was teh only place you could get real good cheesecake, and is now closed.
#2 teh old commercial for Pace picante sauce, where the guy asks where the off brand was made
He says "New York city" and the next guys says Get a rope.


CaptG

Sounds like yet another good reason to move. We don't seem to have that problem here.
Guy
"If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a small chance of survival. There may even be a worse case: you may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves."
Winston Churchill

desertrat144

Quote from: ChevalierdeJohnstone on August 27, 2010, 05:26:31 PM
Like some others, I've had questions regarding registration of an M1 Garand for New York City residents.

The answer is: You may not legally possess a working M1 Garand in New York City.

Why is the Garand illegal in New York City?  Because the M-5 Bayonet attaches to the gas cylinder lock screw.  In New York City, a rifle with a "bayonet mount" is defined as an "assault weapon" and is banned.  It does not matter whether or not you actually stick a bayonet on there, only that you could do so. 

As one who is faced with relocating to a 2A friendly county upstate (I've got a temporary reprieve for now), the amount of my every day use 'toys' that are felonies in NY generally is astounding!  In getting caught up in CCW quals & training to prep for the upstate move, NYC seems to be its own Empire.  My M1A is Pre-Ban so I'm good there, doesn't NYC recognize the State's Pre-Ban Laws?  Aside from Bloomberg ($$$ & 2A to be destroyed), how can they be exempt from State Law?

Tom
"Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond it's limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves." - President Ronald Wilson Reagan

Grayson

QuoteAside from Bloomberg ($$$ & 2A to be destroyed), how can they be exempt from State Law?

Bloomberg is one of too many elected officials known for not letting "the law" stand in the way of want he wants.  And even ONE of those elected officials is one too many, natch.  He either gets people to change the law (overturning the NYC Mayoral term limits), or disregards it altogether (his out-of-state "sting" operations).

Even worse, arguably: though his pockets are VERY deep, I'm not sure how much of a factor that was in the above two examples.  I sure don't recall hearing of him having to buy off NYC lawmakers to get his extra term, or BATFE officials to keep out of jail.  IE, it could be they just rolled over for him just because they saw nothing wrong with it... :wall:


sgtrock

#9
Quote from: JustJeff on August 28, 2010, 03:40:05 PM
Quote from: SamD on August 28, 2010, 12:06:37 PM
That's OK
NYC is illegal in New Mexico


**) ::)  New Yorkers and Californians who are new here are amazed by the fact that they can 'open carry' most places in NM (very short list of prohibited areas) and that they can go to the gun-shop or a gun-show and walk out with just about any rifle, shotgun, or handgun they care to buy (as long as they claim NM residency and have a NM Drivers License).  
QuoteYou should see the wide-eyed amazement on their faces when educated on this

Sir , I've been educated a long time on what other states have to offer on behalf of our 2nd amendment freedoms, me being a free man in this state,, and a RWVA member (On The Trail) Knows very well what I need to do so maybe one day we can openly carry here as well, we are extremely out numbered here in votes, that is why we work so hard on this Appleseed trail here New York, I have doubled my shoots at Burlington Flats, New York so I can keep spreading the word that I believe In,, We are very aware of whats out there that other people enjoy,, some day we will too, if we can awaken the ones that have, not a clue, and have their heads buried in the sand,,,  Yes it is sad that we have lost a Boat load of our freedoms,,, When You or if you come to a New York Shoot, you'll see why we have to do what we do,(Appleseed) yes, not everybody that have firearms, knows of the laws that are out there, That in its self becomes a teaching tool, use it for good,,, not for amusement, educate wisely and it will work for you as well,,, Picking up and leaving town is not an option that too many have,, you need money and a job when you get there,,,  Me, I will Stay and Fight, if everybody leaves town who wants to carry openly, then there will be nobody left to carry on the message,,,, You Betcha I'm Serious,,, Like A Heart Attack,,,

sgtrock

Oh by the way I have some really good friends in the city,, NYC, and out on the Island, that would be Long Island and I met them in This Program,,, New Yorkers are fighters and we love a good fight, that is why We Appleseed,
   Every time I think of NYC, I say how can we change the atmosphere down there,,, My thoughts keep coming back to one thing, Voter Education


SamD


Reddot

Good luck to our brothers and sisters "behind the lines" in NYC.  You get tired of it, you're always welcome down here in Texas--we've got a lot of our own problems, but gun ownership isn't one of them.  Getting folks off the couch presents a challenge, but we're working on it....

desertrat144

Quote from: Grayson on August 28, 2010, 05:42:33 PM
QuoteAside from Bloomberg ($$$ & 2A to be destroyed), how can they be exempt from State Law?

Bloomberg is one of too many elected officials known for not letting "the law" stand in the way of want he wants.  And even ONE of those elected officials is one too many, natch.  He either gets people to change the law (overturning the NYC Mayoral term limits), or disregards it altogether (his out-of-state "sting" operations).

Even worse, arguably: though his pockets are VERY deep, I'm not sure how much of a factor that was in the above two examples.  I sure don't recall hearing of him having to buy off NYC lawmakers to get his extra term, or BATFE officials to keep out of jail.  IE, it could be they just rolled over for him just because they saw nothing wrong with it... :wall:

Bloomberg sent some NYC folks and BATFE agents out to the Cross Roads of the West Gun Show in Reno back in '09 to do some Straw Man Purchases, as he believed that the illegal guns making it to NYC were coming from here.  The Knox Coalition and Vin Suprynowicz (citations omitted) had printed stories on how the 'plants' struck out.  BATFE wasn't terribly pleased with him for being skunked either.  I was stationed on Long Island back in the '70s, and the 'great minds' in the City & Albany were wondrous marvels- most of us wondered how they got to their positions, and marveled at their ability to keep getting elected while quelling any investigations into their practices.

Tom
soon to return.
"Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond it's limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves." - President Ronald Wilson Reagan

ChevalierdeJohnstone

Someone PMed me with a friendly comment and some helpful information, and on reflection on their comment I realize I need to update this post.  This person commented (negatively, but politely) on the idea of law enforcement officers, sworn to uphold the Constitution, who enforce laws which are unconstitutional.

First of all, that's impossible.  I mis-wrote.  Any law we have is by definition Constitutional, unless or until it is ruled unconstitutional by a court of law.  When I was writing the post I thought to myself "I shouldn't be using the word unconstitutional".  This is what I get for being philosophically lazy. 

Honestly I'm not a real big fan of the Constitution.  The right to private armament for the purpose of defending yourself and your neighbors is outside of human law.  It is Enumerated in the 2nd amendment, but it is given to us at Creation.  This and other rights are not "given" to us, they are our birthright.  That's why it says "Endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights."  I don't care who or what your Creator is.  Stochastic spontaneous quantum hydrogen formation is fine - that's where your rights come from.

The purpose of Human laws is to preserve material order.  That is the job of law enforcement as well.  When law enforcement ceases to preserve lawful order - whatever that is - and instead decides to create their own, then we have anarchy.  If they are powerful enough, we soon get a dictatorship, which can be pretty bad.  But in the meantime - red, red, rule of tooth and claw. 

No reasonable person wants complete chaos.  A mixture of chaos and order are necessary for life; are necessary for Freedom.  When local law enforcement tells me I can't possess a particular type of firearm, yes I think it's a bad law.  But those officers, by enforcing that law even though they too might disagree, are doing far more to preserve my rights, at that very moment, than is a criminal who breaks into my apartment to rob or kill me and mine.  There can be no Freedom without order, because without order we are all slaves to violence.

It's not the duty of law enforcement officers to protect our rights.  It is their duty to uphold the law.  Our Founders tried to set up a government, which would make laws, and would appoints law enforcement officers, which would facilitate the protection of our rights.

They failed.  They knew they failed, but they did the best they could at the time, which is all any mortal can hope to do.  (And they did a darn sight better, I think, than anyone had before them, or has since.)  The Constitution clearly fails to form a government which protects innate human rights: look around.  Montesqieu was wrong.  (I want to carefully point out, without ruffling any lace cravats, that I am not going to make any jokes about taking political advice from the French.  But feel free to make up your own.)

But that's okay, because it's not up to the Constitution, and it's not up to the Government, and it's not up to Law Enforcement.  It's up to Us.  We always "have" rights - they are innate - but it's up to us to protect and preserve the expression of them, and to pass that gift along to future generations as best we can.  We do this by each, personally, committing to do our part - not by demanding it of law enforcement, or the military, or government bureaucrats, or politicians.

To me, that's what Appleseed is all about.

PHenry

Ever notice how a bug runs when you turn on the light? That's because even bugs have the right to defend their own lives. Such rights are "natural rights", handed down by the Creator of all things and as such, are not the province of mere mortals.

Back to bailing.
Para ser Libre, un Hombre debe tener tres cosas. La Tierra, una Educacion, y un Fusil. Siempre, un Fusil!  Emiliano Zapata

Bill of Rights

Quote from: ChevalierdeJohnstone on August 31, 2010, 02:31:43 PM
Someone PMed me with a friendly comment and some helpful information, and on reflection on their comment I realize I need to update this post.  This person commented (negatively, but politely) on the idea of law enforcement officers, sworn to uphold the Constitution, who enforce laws which are unconstitutional.

First of all, that's impossible.  I mis-wrote.  Any law we have is by definition Constitutional, unless or until it is ruled unconstitutional by a court of law.  When I was writing the post I thought to myself "I shouldn't be using the word unconstitutional".  This is what I get for being philosophically lazy. 

Honestly I'm not a real big fan of the Constitution.  The right to private armament for the purpose of defending yourself and your neighbors is outside of human law.  It is Enumerated in the 2nd amendment, but it is given to us at Creation.  This and other rights are not "given" to us, they are our birthright.  That's why it says "Endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights."  I don't care who or what your Creator is.  Stochastic spontaneous quantum hydrogen formation is fine - that's where your rights come from.

The purpose of Human laws is to preserve material order.  That is the job of law enforcement as well.  When law enforcement ceases to preserve lawful order - whatever that is - and instead decides to create their own, then we have anarchy.  If they are powerful enough, we soon get a dictatorship, which can be pretty bad.  But in the meantime - red, red, rule of tooth and claw. 

No reasonable person wants complete chaos.  A mixture of chaos and order are necessary for life; are necessary for Freedom.  When local law enforcement tells me I can't possess a particular type of firearm, yes I think it's a bad law.  But those officers, by enforcing that law even though they too might disagree, are doing far more to preserve my rights, at that very moment, than is a criminal who breaks into my apartment to rob or kill me and mine.  There can be no Freedom without order, because without order we are all slaves to violence.

It's not the duty of law enforcement officers to protect our rights.  It is their duty to uphold the law.  Our Founders tried to set up a government, which would make laws, and would appoints law enforcement officers, which would facilitate the protection of our rights.

They failed.  They knew they failed, but they did the best they could at the time, which is all any mortal can hope to do.  (And they did a darn sight better, I think, than anyone had before them, or has since.)  The Constitution clearly fails to form a government which protects innate human rights: look around.  Montesqieu was wrong.  (I want to carefully point out, without ruffling any lace cravats, that I am not going to make any jokes about taking political advice from the French.  But feel free to make up your own.)

But that's okay, because it's not up to the Constitution, and it's not up to the Government, and it's not up to Law Enforcement.  It's up to Us.  We always "have" rights - they are innate - but it's up to us to protect and preserve the expression of them, and to pass that gift along to future generations as best we can.  We do this by each, personally, committing to do our part - not by demanding it of law enforcement, or the military, or government bureaucrats, or politicians.

To me, that's what Appleseed is all about.

With respect, I think you've illustrated part of the problem here. It seems that you take the Constitution as claiming that it is the source of our rights, rather than the Creator, however we know Him(/Her/It). The Constitution does no such thing, rather, it merely protects our rights as granted by our Creator. It is a series of limits upon the federal government and originally, solely on the members thereof in their official capacities. As my screen name indicates, I'm a big fan of the ideas it espouses, limiting very strictly the actions of those entrusted with some modicum of power. Sadly, we as a nation have, through apathy and ignorance, allowed that modicum to become a lumbering behemoth. Appleseed is the method we have chosen to bring light to those responsibilities we as American citizens have incumbent upon us, those duties we have long neglected.
It is said that at the end of the Continental Congress, the elder statesman, Mr. Benjamin Franklin, was approached and asked "What kind of government have you crafted for us?"

Leaving aside the facts that a) we have no comparable person in such a role today and b) even if we did, we, the average citizens, could never approach close enough to ask such a question, consider for a moment how few of our present-day countrymen would have the gumption or the intelligence to formulate and ask the question.

Then think about how few of those would have the wisdom to understand Mr. Franklin's reply of "A Republic, if you can keep it!"

Though it is outside the limits of the Story we tell at our shoots, this anecdote for me defines a large majority of the reason we MUST Appleseed. The electorate must know such things as what form of government we have and how it differs from the "democracy" most think we have.

We are here to save a nation, not with bullets and SHFs and NPOA, but with thought, education, knowledge, wisdom, and intelligence, for much as a "War on Terror" or a "War on Drugs" must of necessity be lost just as was the "War on Poverty", so would be a "War on Apathy"; it's not a tangible threat into which we can pump lead and expect defeat. This dragon can be slain only with the mind, opened and with a teachable attitude and an indomitable spirit.

We must prevail. The alternative is unacceptable. (I had typed "unthinkable", but then I realized that's what got us here... not thinking.)

Blessings,
Bill
If ye love wealth better than liberty,the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom,go from us in peace.We ask not your counsels or arms.Crouch down & lick the hands which feed you.May your chains sit lightly upon you,& may posterity forget that you were our countrymen! Sam Adams

ChevalierdeJohnstone

@ Bill of Rights,

You quoted my post in your reply, but I don't think it's possible that you were replying to me?  I don't see how I could possibly be clearer than,

"The right to private armament for the purpose of defending yourself and your neighbors is outside of human law.  It is Enumerated in the 2nd amendment, but it is given to us at Creation.  This and other rights are not "given" to us, they are our birthright.  That's why it says "Endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights.""

It seems to me that you and I are in peacefully heated agreement...were you responding to another post?

Bill of Rights

Quote from: ChevalierdeJohnstone on September 03, 2010, 04:46:43 PM
@ Bill of Rights,

You quoted my post in your reply, but I don't think it's possible that you were replying to me?  I don't see how I could possibly be clearer than,

"The right to private armament for the purpose of defending yourself and your neighbors is outside of human law.  It is Enumerated in the 2nd amendment, but it is given to us at Creation.  This and other rights are not "given" to us, they are our birthright.  That's why it says "Endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights.""

It seems to me that you and I are in peacefully heated agreement...were you responding to another post?

It seems I was attacked by a "non-speaking donkey" ;). I don't know why I quoted your post or where the perception I had came from that you were claiming the 2A or other rights had their source in that document. I shall endeavor to improve my target detection and avoid any more dumbass attacks. Thank you for a well-deserved and very politely delivered b***hslap.  ;D

Blessings,
Bill
If ye love wealth better than liberty,the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom,go from us in peace.We ask not your counsels or arms.Crouch down & lick the hands which feed you.May your chains sit lightly upon you,& may posterity forget that you were our countrymen! Sam Adams

Josey Wales

..You both rule.. And glad your on my side 8)
..to hell with them fellows, buzzards gotta eat same as worms..

Vergeltung

Quote from: ChevalierdeJohnstone on August 31, 2010, 02:31:43 PM
Honestly I'm not a real big fan of the Constitution. 

say again? are you kidding!?!   ++)

The Postman

Quote from: SamD on August 28, 2010, 12:06:37 PM
That's OK
NYC is illegal in New Mexico

HAR! . .  NYC is illegal up here in Central NY also!!
"If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the last stand on earth. "
Ronald Reagan, October 27, 1964