New York Times

[JJAGUNS]

Just read the article in the Times, and all the comments, ouch, didnt really expect much less from the zombies, but the article wasnt so good in my opinion either.

[Appalacious]

I'm in the "all publicity is good" camp.

[StoneDog]

Hi Everyone,

I tracked down the article and I've been itching to comment on it.  If you don't mind, I'll do that right here.  :-)

The author spent a lot of time sensationalizing a few attendees he thought were extremists or nutjobs.  Would expect nothing less from the NYT, but it was still disappointing.  I was hoping he would've balanced that out by also discussing the family-oriented nature of many of the shoots.  Every event I've been to had single adults, folks that are a little farther along on life's path and parents with their children or grandchildren.  

Fred did an excellent job of explaining that there is no militia/extremist connection and at one point said something to the effect of "if we have 500 nutjobs attend and 499 walk away with a less extreme attitude, then what do you say?".    

The beauty of Appleseed is that it helps to wake people up.  Shooting Rifleman gave me a sense of pride, self confidence and a desire to rely more on myself and less on others.  As a result of the April 19 discussions I have a new hobby: studying Rev War history.  I also now make it a point to call or email my representatives and have joined local organizations like Georgia Carry.  As someone at one of my first shoots said, we aren't (and shouldn't be) told what to think but we are asked to start thinking.  It would've been great if the author would've made that a little more evident in the piece.

Regards,

Jon

[franklinfarmer]

Well, all I can say, is "I quit."  I don't want to be associated with any organization that provides an "entry" to the dark side.

<big grin>

Seriously, I think Justin is right.  This article provides us a big net gain.  In any case, you can't react defensively to such things.  Just roll with it, and eventually roll over it.  Incidentally, I think the response to the editor posted on the Appleseed main page comes across as a bit too defensive.  It is also unfair to militias painting them with the broad brush of "offering a dark haven."  I wonder how many of these people actually have experience with militias.  I guess John Parker and Isaac Davis were on the dark side.

[oldfudd]

The author spent a lot of time sensationalizing a few attendees he thought were extremists or nutjobs.  Would expect nothing less from the NYT, but it was still disappointing.  

Unfortunately, it seems to be the tendency of the MSM to think that they have the right/duty to interpret the news for us, thus biasing what we see and hear.  Because of this, I believe that it is so important that Appleseed stress the need for people to be able to think for themselves, and not just be entertained by the talking heads. 

This of course is based on the premise that people have the ability to think for themselves and come to their own independent conclusions.  I'm not certain that all Americans in this day and age have this ability.     Sigh . . . . .

See ya,

Dick

[Fred]

 I guess John Parker and Isaac Davis were on the dark side.

    Nope. No way. Totally different circumstances.

    Transport them magically to right now, key them in on "what's what", and they'd be doing and saying exactly what we're doing and saying, right now.

     At least, that's my guess, and I'm sticking to it.

[StoneDog]

Well, all I can say, is "I quit."  I don't want to be associated with any organization that provides an "entry" to the dark side.

<big grin>

Seriously, I think Justin is right.  This article provides us a big net gain.  In any case, you can't react defensively to such things.  Just roll with it, and eventually roll over it.  Incidentally, I think the response to the editor posted on the Appleseed main page comes across as a bit too defensive.  It is also unfair to militias painting them with the broad brush of "offering a dark haven."  I wonder how many of these people actually have experience with militias.  I guess John Parker and Isaac Davis were on the dark side.

Right or wrong, the word militia carries quite a stigma thanks to coverage of "insurgient" groups in Iraq and Afghanistan and extremist groups here in the US.  When discussing Rev War militias (assuming they are still mentioned in today's text books) the word magically transforms into something less threatening.  It is very wise that RWVA prohibits the use of the word outside the context of April 19.

Unfortunately, it seems to be the tendency of the MSM to think that they have the right/duty to interpret the news for us, thus biasing what we see and hear.  Because of this, I believe that it is so important that Appleseed stress the need for people to be able to think for themselves, and not just be entertained by the talking heads.  

This of course is based on the premise that people have the ability to think for themselves and come to their own independent conclusions.  I'm not certain that all Americans in this day and age have this ability.    Sigh . . . . .

See ya,

Dick

This is again the beauty (and duty?!) of the Appleseed program.  When people become more aware, when they "know what they are about", they are much more likely to think for themselves and think critically about what the media is shoveling.   This is also why off-topic discussions at AS events do more harm than good.  If someone is on the fence (or the other side of the fence ), any strongly worded comments on current events or the current administration are likely to alienate them from the get-go.  The simple message of "think for yourself" can be hard enough to swallow.  Luckily I've not seen much of this at the 5 or 6 shoots I've been too, but judging from comments on other forums it probably happens on occasion.

And to Fred's comment, I believe you are spot on Sir.  The Founding Fathers had years to work on what would be the mainstream media of the time before the unthinkable events of April 19.  What the article did highlight, and I thought it was brilliant, is how the Appleseed Project helps people realize we are not about to have another April 19.  While some extremists may fantasize about it, it would be jumping to the most horrible and unnecessary measure possible...  Appleseeders that "wake up" will become more involved in the political process and effect a real change the correct way.   Brilliant.

My two cents, thanks for reading.

Jon

[jollymeister]

[oldfudd]

The media will always distort things to reach as many people as possible, good or bad that's the way it is.

Jolly --  I'm a little more cynical than you regarding the MSM.  I don't think they're particularly interested in reaching as many people as possible, but rather think their bias is towards skewing their reporting to influence as many as possible towards their personal agenda.  The facts be damned, and are only presented if they can be used to support their agenda.

For myself, my "agenda" is most often very different from theirs, and like you, I love my Country, and my God given Freedoms.

See ya.

Dick

[mountainman2222]

I was offended by the article.  I don't agree that ignoring it will make it go away either.  The New York Times is just another media source with its own agenda but left unchecked the rumor will grow.  The author, Mattathias Schwartz, is trying to sell information at the expense of the truth.  (I also find that offensive)  We are, in my opinion, true patriots and do not deserve this kind of press.  People can distort things anyway they want to.  It is important that we give them an opportunity to see the truth.

Marty

[franklinfarmer]

Maybe they *would* unjustifiably demonize the constitutional militias.  Even admirable folks make mistakes, especially when they've been "keyed in" to the erroneous perceptions of others.

 I guess John Parker and Isaac Davis were on the dark side.

    Nope. No way. Totally different circumstances.

    Transport them magically to right now, key them in on "what's what", and they'd be doing and saying exactly what we're doing and saying, right now.

     At least, that's my guess, and I'm sticking to it.

[BeSwift]

I tend to agree that "all press is good press"..Let's face it..those who read the NYT and believe/subscribe to their publishers world view aren't going to be converted. That's who their reporters are writing for anyway.. The people who seek out the article who aren't regular readers (and there a lot of them, given the feedback on my state shooters website), are going to have sense that it was a hit piece and clearly see the skew.

It took guts to allow NYT open access to Appleseed given the almost certain hit piece they'd publish. In the long run, it will be a good thing, and Fred should be commended for having the cajones to take the short term hit in order to get the long term net gain. A leader has to make tough decisions that not everyone will like or agree with...  My 02..  BeSwift

[franklinfarmer]

As I think about Marty/mountainman222's comment above, it occurs to me that it is, perhaps, in response to my post.  If so, I should clarify my comment.  

I was not suggesting ignoring anything.  I suggested that we "roll with it."  Translation:  Take full advantage of the situation.  In this regard, I simply note that being "offended" and defensive communicates to those who oppose us that we are thin skinned and worried about what we are doing.  And you can be sure they will take advantage of that knowledge.  It can also throw us off balance, and make us commit to positions and/or say things that are unnecessary at best and may alienate those who would be on our side at worst.  For example, it would be good to clarify, in response to the article, that Appleseed is not a militia training program and has nothing to do with militia.  This is because the article's author has painted the program with a wide brush and wrongfully associated it with sentiments and organizations with which Appleseed has no connection.  To go further and engage in the same activity as the New York Times author by painting all militia activities as somehow "dark" is unnecessary and counterproductive.  Unfortunately, we simply don't have the leisure to be thin skinned.

Know your enemy.  ---Sun Tzu

Do not be your own enemy.   ---Franklin Farmer

[snaphook75]

In my humble, but studied, opinion.....well said, FranklinFarmer. We all know, and embrace, the main tenets of Appleseed, as so eloquently expressed by Fred, et. al, in the NYT Letter to the Editor; however, we must stand firm in the truth and our knowledge of history. Though I'm not involved in one, I would be willing to wager that many rock solid Patriots are involved in organizations loosely refered to as "militias". We all pray every day that Americans will never be forced to shed blood to secure our God-given Liberties again. But those who adopt the "can't happen here" attitude....well, you know where that leads.

When representing the Appleseed Project, even in casual conversation, I stick to the "company line", which is a darn good one! I do hope, however, that as we grow, we will not be tempted by the siren song of appeasement to all. In my opinion, we need to state the truth, stay on task, BUT, we are not bound to insult other Patriots in an attempt to appease those who will never seek to understand the foundation of our Nation that grew it into the beacon of freedom in the world.

Possibly the greatest advocate of freedom and the rights of man in the 20th Century said, "An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping that he is the last one eaten." Sir Winston Churchill was called a "classic liberal", when it meant one who advocates freedom - not freedom from responsibility!

Let's not ostracize Patriots who happen to believe in the modern day militia, any more than we would ostracize liberals who read the NYT!

Best From GA

[jollynator]

........

[StoneDog]

There was an official response sent from the Project to the NYT.  I saw it on another forum (THR I think).  Is it here on our forum too?

EDIT:  I just found it on the main site.  That's what I get for jumping directly into the forum via http://www.appleseedinfo.org/smf and bypassing the main Appleseed page.

[goose]

The media will always distort things to reach as many people as possible, good or bad that's the way it is. I try only to pay attention to facts. There is only one thing that disturbs me and I'm researching that now.

I love my Country
I Love my Freedom
If that makes me a nutjob then so be it.

Salute

The comments that follow any article, provided that the source allows them, is always more enlightening that the article on it's own.  The comments that followed the NYT piece were, in some cases, disturbing--to think that an American would draw a conclusion about something they know nothing about prior to having read one scratched out article is simply despicable.  I guess this shows the terrible condition among the citizens of the Federal Republic and the need to do as much as humanly possible to wake up those in the coma.

Nutjob...is their a patch for that? 

[jollynator]

Nutjob...is their a patch for that?

Dunno, but I want one.