Author Topic: Yards vs Meters..  (Read 2789 times)

Offline def90

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Yards vs Meters..
« on: July 22, 2010, 04:42:48 PM »
Hello, new poster and member here. I attended the first day of the last Appleseed in Brighton and had a good time and plan on going back after some more practice :) Was signed up for the second day but the heat from the first day and my malfunctioning rifle kept me out of the second day. I had an additional .22 along but it is a pump rifle with a tube loader so I basically had to reset my position and aim after every shot. i plan on getting a semiauto .22 in the next couple weeks.

Anyway, a quick question. How come all of the targets are based on yards and MOA of course is based on yards however the redcoat and other targets used that day are all listed to be used at 25 Meters rather than yards.. Just wondering why as 25 meters is close to 27.3 yards.. I am assuming that the silhouettes are then scaled for the correct yardage even though they are being used at 25 meters then?

Thanks,
Chad
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 04:46:21 PM by def90 »

Offline wesm

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Re: Yards vs Meters..
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2010, 06:46:00 PM »
Quote
How come all of the targets are based on yards and MOA of course is based on yards however the redcoat and other targets used that day are all listed to be used at 25 Meters rather than yards..

I have been wondering this myself recently and am curious about the answer.
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Offline techres

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Re: Yards vs Meters..
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2010, 07:00:15 PM »
Ok, surely a master or senior instructor will be along soon to explain the full math, but in a nutshell the reasons are these:

1. The Military uses meters.
2. Non-Military use yards.

The AQT test and it's associated pictures are of military lineage and as such we use the 25 meter/82 feet and since that is the measure the test is based on, we use that measure for setting up our lines and zeroing in.

Now, move on to our lessons where we use yards and meters interchangeably.  Well, we do that because it is both simple and "close enough".  If we were teaching target shooting it would not be close enough, but for the Rifleman Standard it is adequate and effective.  Since our students are predominantly non-military, they know yards as a measure so that is what we use.  At our military shoots, we do use meters exclusively.

The only issues where the math begins to have issues is at long ranges.  Even then though, the distance training is adjusted to to take the difference into account.  If any student wants the detailed, full breakdown, they should go to a Rifleman's Bootcamp where there is plenty of time to go into the issues and math in full detail.

Hope that helps,
Techres
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 07:02:46 PM by techres »
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therealsteamer

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Re: Yards vs Meters..
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2010, 09:04:01 PM »
I wondered the same thing before my first Appleseed.  However, instead of seeking an explanation beforehand we just decided to set our line 30 yards from the backstop and go with that.....  It's something we still do...   

Offline ItsanSKS

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Re: Yards vs Meters..
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2010, 09:34:47 PM »
the  bsz -battle sight zero would be thrown off quite a bit at 25 yd verses meters and would require a different formula for actual distance shooting

Not as true as you might imagine.

Lets do the math.

Presumptions:

16" AR-15 with A2 rear sight.

25m = 82'
25y = 75'

Presume for the sake of argument that the difference between the two zero's would be be one click on the front sight, or 1.5 MOA

Zero'd at 25m, the POA=POI at ~275m  275m= 300.74 yards

A difference of 1.5 MOA at 300 yards would be?  4.5" 
4.5" would mean, at most, your perfectly aimed 300yd shot hits the 4 ring instead of the 5 ring on the AQT target  perfectly acceptable, in my book.
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Offline def90

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Re: Yards vs Meters..
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2010, 12:36:20 AM »
That's interesting.. Even all of the documentation for my FAL as well as posts on Falfiles reference both yards (imperial) and meters interchangeably. At close ranges I don't see it being an issue but I would think that when you start getting out to 300-400 yds/meters that it would make a difference..

With yards, at 100 yds 1 MOA = 1 inch.. In metric terms what would 1 MOA be at 100 meters? It can't just be the cm equivalent of 1 inch because 100 yards is = to 91 meters.. It should be somewhere around 2.5 cm.. Or maybe I am just over thinking it?

I guess either way I have to concentrate on getting all of my shots on the paper in the first place before I start worrying about yds vs. meters.. lol.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2010, 12:43:40 AM by def90 »

Offline EEL

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Re: Yards vs Meters..
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2010, 12:59:43 AM »
Yards vs. Meters... Next up Revolver vs. Auto, then we will move on to 9mm vs. .45 ACP.

Of course you see where I'm going.  ;D  techres and Itsansks have it right.  We are shooting RIFLEMAN here!  4MOA.  Think on that for a moment.  4 MOA will not win you any trophies.  4 MOA will not get your name up in lights.  But....4 MOA will allow you to control all you can see, The Rifleman's 1/4 mile.  Perhaps you have heard the saying "Perfection is the enemy of good enough"?  4 MOA is good enough for a Rifleman.  The difference really doesn't come into play until you get to really looong distance.  

As noted above 300 yards vs 300 meters isn't enough to worry about IF you have your BSZ set correctly.  The plate will go down  O0  Does it matter that you hit it a few inches below your expected point of aim?  Heck NO!!  It went down and that's all that counts to a Rifleman!  The score?  Rifleman 1...Plate 0

This is not Highpower.  The ONLY competition here is within you.  Can you persevere?  Can you persist?  Can you get inside your bubble?  Can you shoot the 4MOA required to reach Rifleman?

Get the fundamentals down.  A solid shooting platform, fire by the numbers, confirm NPOA, and fire in cadence.  You'll find that the plates will drop, yes, even at 500 yards / meters once you do your come ups and dope the wind.

Carry on!!

EEL

« Last Edit: July 23, 2010, 02:34:27 AM by EEL »
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Offline def90

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Re: Yards vs Meters..
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2010, 01:17:48 PM »
Yeah, I am probably splitting hairs and getting caught up in target marksmanship shooting vs military rifleman..

Offline Nickle

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Re: Yards vs Meters..
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2010, 01:37:02 PM »
Here's the easy answer.

25 never was done in yards. It used to be 1000 inches.

Back in the days before the Army went to the M14 (and started using meters), the zero target was done at 1000 inches.

Just happens to be the intersect point of crossing the line of sight when an M1 is zeroed at 200 yards.

Now, seeing that my father was in back in those days, and seeing how he was on the Army Guard State Rifle Team, we had some of those zero targets at home. So, it's not that I'm smart, I've just got a good memory for trivial, mostly useless knowledge.  **)

If you do the math, 1000 inches is 83.33 feet. 25 meters is about 82 feet.

The tolerances in your rifle, ammo and shooter will amount to more than the tiny difference of about 1 foot. Make that 7 or 8 feet, and it's a different story.
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Offline paddymurphy

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Re: Yards vs Meters..
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2010, 06:35:24 AM »
That's interesting.. Even all of the documentation for my FAL as well as posts on Falfiles reference both yards (imperial) and meters interchangeably. At close ranges I don't see it being an issue but I would think that when you start getting out to 300-400 yds/meters that it would make a difference..

With yards, at 100 yds 1 MOA = 1 inch.. In metric terms what would 1 MOA be at 100 meters? It can't just be the cm equivalent of 1 inch because 100 yards is = to 91 meters.. It should be somewhere around 2.5 cm.. Or maybe I am just over thinking it?

I guess either way I have to concentrate on getting all of my shots on the paper in the first place before I start worrying about yds vs. meters.. lol.

A couple points: An MOA is actually 1.047 inches at 100 yards.  At 100 it is an insignificant amount.  At 1000 it is still not huge.  But at 1000 shooting bench rest every little thing adds up to big problems.  Not saying that to be a smart alec but to reinforce the point that at shorter ranges and with a 4 MOA standard it is much ado about nothing. 

As to your second point 2.5 cm is 1 inch (30 cm to the foot).

Offline NMMI9100

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Re: Yards vs Meters..
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2010, 12:52:35 AM »
It really only makes a difference at long range, as others have suggested.  I shoot pretty regularly at Raton, NM and we shoot out to 1100+ yards with regularity.  Before I came to Appleseed, I was a 50 BMG shooter at 1000 yards.

M14 sights are calibrated in meters.
FAL sights are calibrated in meters.
AK sights are calibrated in meters.
AR15 sights are calibrated in meters.

That's pretty much why we run stuff at 25 meters, from my understanding.  From a 4 MOA appleseed standpoint, it only makes a difference beyond 500 meters.  At 500 meters, the target is about 550 yards away.  At 1000 meters it's about 1100 yards.  Only beyond 500 meters is your zero going to shift on an iron sighted rifle between yards and meters.  Also, if memory serves, there's only about 1 or 2 clicks of elevation difference between the 500 yard setting on an M1 Garand and the 500 meter setting on an M14.  Outside of highpower circles, most folks can't shoot to 2 MOA resolution at distance.

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