Uncommon and Minority Calibers

[scopeboy001]

the object of this thread is to provide a place for people who have, shoot, or would like to know about uncommon largely not known about,or hard to find ammunition. even share reloading recipies.   anything goes here. 

[Snake45]

Good thread idea! I'm surprised there's been no response so far so I'll try to get the ball rolling.

Not sure if .303 Brit qualifies as sufficiently "uncommon," but I'm soon going to start reloading for one (two, actually). I'm interested in putting together some light loads, for offhand practice at 50-100 yards, using FMJ 7.62x39 bullets. I'm looking for ballistics somewhere between .30 USCarbine and 7.62x39. I'd use cast bullets and go even lighter but one of the barrels has some pitting and I'm concerned about using lead bullets over pits. Anyone got any good starting points?

[Nickle]

Lead bullets in a pitted bore are OK.

I suggest using the heavier bullets if you use lead, there's sound reasoning behind that.

That being said, about 125 to 150 grains is definitely doable with lead.

[Francis Marion]

Good thread idea! I'm surprised there's been no response so far so I'll try to get the ball rolling.

Not sure if .303 Brit qualifies as sufficiently "uncommon," but I'm soon going to start reloading for one (two, actually). I'm interested in putting together some light loads, for offhand practice at 50-100 yards, using FMJ 7.62x39 bullets. I'm looking for ballistics somewhere between .30 USCarbine and 7.62x39. I'd use cast bullets and go even lighter but one of the barrels has some pitting and I'm concerned about using lead bullets over pits. Anyone got any good starting points?

Have done a few hundred of the 7.62x39 slug/powder charge placed in a boxer primed 303 casing.  Accuracy in my experience was not great, 6" at 100 yd sitting using Wolf origin components in a #4 Mk1 with a 5-groove sharp, good barrel.  An Enfield (and an SKS, for that matter) will favor heavier bullets due to its rate of twist.  Recoil is very mild, and the bullets don't feed reliably from the magazine due to the (for the Enfield) unusually short 7.62 bullet.  MkVII Ball in same rifle groups to 3" at 100 yd.  This was done when 7.62x39 was $0.10/round, and so I didn't mind the somewhat disappointing result of the experiment. 
Two groove Enfield, as with two groove M1903a3,  both keyholed cast bullets where bullet weight was 180 grain, velocity was theoretically 1600 fps. The four & five groove barrels are fine with cast bullets. 
What's interesting about surplus 303 these days, however, is the fact that it's advertised for $0.15 to $0.18/round; that's really cheap.  Hard to find 7.62x39 for less than $0.20/round today, so I'd be inclined to practice with Mk VII ball anyway.  It's already fairly low recoil, and is so cheap by today's ammunition standards that you should obtain several cases.  If the recoil of MkVII ball is a bit much, you might fill the buttstock trap with lead shot.  Don't wait until MK VII gets to $0.50/round like everything else (except CMP M2 ball, hooah!) today to get cases of it.
What's interesting about any surplus ammo that is:
*of decent component quality, i.e. properly stored and capable of 4MOA or better,
*a bargain, i.e. from $0.15 to $0.25/shot delivered,
*component-suitable for use in an MBR or carbine, i.e. won't stress out op rods,
is that you can pull down slugs and powder for your modern autoloader, supplying primers and casings of your own, to make economical ammunition yet of acceptable quality.  Consider 7.62x54 and 8x57-  Both have generous amounts of propellant, usually decent quality slugs, and low cost.  You could barter/sell the 7.62 and 8mm bullets to a pal for 5.56 and 30 cal bullets. 
I think you have two good things going with your 303, namely the good price of ball and the powder and slug compatibility with also-cheap 7.62x54.  You could download the 7.62x54 to meet your recoil expectations, use a bullet of 150+ grain, AND hopefully get reliable magazine feeding.  Then barter/sell the primed 7.62 cases to a pal for something else you need.   
Of course sensible and cautious load development is necessary with pull-down ammunition, especially in a Lee-Enfield.   

[AZRedhawk44]

I agree with Francis.  You're not going to be able to construct ammunition for a .303 any cheaper than you can buy pull down components or create your own pull down from other compatible diameter bullets; then you've got the value of your time to pull-down and recreate the surplus ammunition.  And the spooky factor of not knowing what powder was used, and how that volume of powder relates to the expected powder level for a .303 cartridge.

I say, keep a few hundred rounds on hand and keep familiar with your rifle, but make heavy use of your LTR or other .22 trainer.  I would suggest a 1:5 ratio of rounds fired on the centerfire rifle versus that of the .22.

[Oohrah]

The pitted 303, I would suggest if you are using lead, use one with a
gas check.  I have two that are a MUST HANDLOAD.   The first is a
30 Gibbs, a blown out short necked (308 Win.)30-06.   The second is a .308
case necked to 25 caliber known as a 25 Souper or 25-08.
   Not odd but not everyone stocks 22 Hornet, 6mm Remington, British
303, 7x57 Mauser, and 30-30.   The rest of the centerfires are 30 calibers,
mostly 30-06 or 308 and a couple two or three .223 rifles.

[Snake45]

Well, it's not like I don't have other centerfire rifles to shoot (.30/06, .308, .243, .223, etc.). And for no more cash than I have tied up in the two Enfields, I could afford to hang them on the wall as decorations. I just thought it would be fun to see if I could turn them into very mild trainers. Both also seem to have somewhat generous headspace, and I thought by handloading, after the first firing, I could neck-size and have them headspace on the shoulder like a "real" rifle should.

It's just a hobby project/experiment, not something that I have to do. 

[ax238]

it seems that most companies offer a new rifle in these calibers, but don't push these.

.220 swift
.222 Rem

these seem to be a fading 'over the counter' round.

Ax

[Oohrah]

Ax, after an article in American rifleman, look towards a poor man's
1000 yard .22/6mm wildcat that will spit 90 grain bullets at 4000 fps +
and will be sub MOA.   Like the Swift, it can't be kind on barrel life!!!!!
Most likely of the two you mentioned, the .222 Rem. will be the first to
fall thanks to the .223 Rem getting between it and the .222 Rem. Mag.
Crazy part is the hohum, 22 Hornet with new powders like LilGun, now
approaches the 222 Rem and .223 in the light weight bullets with very
low psi of the older fast stuff like 2400 and 110.   It also wanders in and
out of obsolete.   Due several companies putting out rifles it remains as
an ammo carried foreign and domestic.

[scopeboy001]

Good thread idea! I'm surprised there's been no response so far so I'll try to get the ball rolling.

Not sure if .303 Brit qualifies as sufficiently "uncommon," but I'm soon going to start reloading for one (two, actually). I'm interested in putting together some light loads, for offhand practice at 50-100 yards, using FMJ 7.62x39 bullets. I'm looking for ballistics somewhere between .30 USCarbine and 7.62x39. I'd use cast bullets and go even lighter but one of the barrels has some pitting and I'm concerned about using lead bullets over pits. Anyone got any good starting points?

for cast bullets setting up an electro-plating device is very easy, you can even build your own using things you would normally find around your garage. along with a few pennies and some salt water.

[FlyingDevildog]

What about the 5.7x28 round?
anyone try rechambering a bolt rifle for this round yet?
If so, what rifle did you start with and how did you build the bolt?

[MIGHTY MOUSE]

[/quote]

Have done a few hundred of the 7.62x39 slug/powder charge placed in a boxer primed 303 casing.  Accuracy in my experience was not great, 6" at 100 yd sitting using Wolf origin components in a #4 Mk1 with a 5-groove sharp, good barrel.  An Enfield (and an SKS, for that matter) will favor heavier bullets due to its rate of twist.  Recoil is very mild, and the bullets don't feed reliably from the magazine due to the (for the Enfield) unusually short 7.62 bullet.  MkVII Ball in same rifle groups to 3" at 100 yd.  This was done when 7.62x39 was $0.10/round, and so I didn't mind the somewhat disappointing result of the experiment.

[/quote]
sorry to butt in the conversation but, isn't the .303 british round a .311 projectile?  That is what I load in mine. I get pretty decent groups with my no4 MK1.  That could explain why your groups are suffering.  Have you slugged your barrel to find out what the diameter is?  I have several books on these rifles and there evidently is a wide variety in bore diameters.  I use pulled 174 gr FMJ projectiles from a case of  Indian POF .303 that I got "rooked" on and I have had decent luck using IMR 4895 and remington cases. 

[Francis Marion]

The nominal 0.001 inch dia. mismatch prob doesn't help, of course.  Haven't slugged it; that's somewhat tricky as the lands & grooves are opposed.  Measure land height also and subtract from diameter, I suppose.  The experiment was driven by curiosity as much as a quest for inexpensive plinking ammo. 
Just wasn't as accurate as I'd have wanted, although it was cheap.  Same experiment performed by adding 7.62x39 slug and powder to 7.62x54 boxer casing produced similarly disappointing results.  No sign of overpressure, but poorer accuracy than with the correct ball ammo, and here the groove sizes should've been ok. 
Well, the most economical plinker so far is cast leads with a miserly amount of pistol or shotgun powder.  Accuracy seldom disappoints, and economy is excellent. Your SKS will be delighted to shoot 160 grain cast leads.   

 
 

[Spatulaman]

 Snake-

Both the original No.1 Mk 3 SMLE and the No.4 Mk1 Enfield have a separate bolt head by which headspace can be adjusted. Most No.4s which I have seen with excessive headspace were wearing the size "0" bolt head. The number "1" size is fairly common, the number "2" less so, and I have only seen two of the number "3" size.

GPC   http://www.e-gunparts.com/dept.asp
Springfield Sporters  http://ssporters.com/
and Poppert's  http://www.poppertsgunparts.com/index.htm

All list parts (including bolt heads) for both models. And it's a 10 minute fix, including pouring another cup of coffee. You will need a headspace gauge, or test a cross-section of cartridges for rim thicknesses. Use brass from the manufacturor whose cases have the thinnest rims for gauging purposes. There are a few advantages to rimmed cartridges, and headspacing is one of them.

[Snake45]

Spatula, yeah, I know all that--I did my homework.  My No. 4 came from Century with a #1 bolt head in it, and the No. 5 was bought at a yard sale (cheap!) with no bolt head at all. "The usual suspect" parts sources only list #0s and #1s now but I bought a pair of #2 bolt heads off ebay for something like $40 or $45, not too bad. No one in my area has .303 headspace gauges so I did a "field expedient" of making my own with an empty case, layering on aluminum tape and miking the rim thickness. Yes I know this is not 100% precise but it seems to indicate that I now have both rifles pretty well inside the Field Reject spec and they SHOULD be okay but you can see my interest in wanting to use light loads in them. But as I say, I don't really have all that much money tied up in either of them so if it doesn't work out, I'm not really out all that much.

[Oohrah]

Scopeboy, plating cast bullets really doesn't stop leading problems of a
rough bore or high velocity.   Thicker and harder cooper gas checks will
to a point, as will alloys such as zinc or tin. 
   As to the question of bore diameter bullets in the Brit. 303, average run
.311 to .312.   I have a Sniper that is almost equally accurate with .308
bullets and even a gas checked 180 gr, .308.   I use primary 311 however,
and only tried it as a what if, with the .308s, and got surprised.
   I do not think those Brit. rifles have head space problems as much as
the action has spring to it and the location of the bolt lugs may contribute
to short case life.   Also years ago when I measured US comercial cases,
they were toward the minimum side when compared to Norma and the
British military stuff.   Neck sized only, would begin to show signs of head
separation at 4 to 5 loadings.   Not available anymore, and I suspect that
Herters brass was made by Norma was also good stuff.   Even though it
headspaces on the rim like a 30-30, I suspect actual chambers may vary
a lot.  Add that to the spring in the action, the brass gets worked a lot even
when neck sizing only.  No clue as to the inside diamentions of FLS dies either.

[scopeboy001]

The pitted 303, I would suggest if you are using lead, use one with a
gas check.  I have two that are a MUST HANDLOAD.   The first is a
30 Gibbs, a blown out short necked (308 Win.)30-06.   The second is a .308
case necked to 25 caliber known as a 25 Souper or 25-08.
   Not odd but not everyone stocks 22 Hornet, 6mm Remington, British
303, 7x57 Mauser, and 30-30.   The rest of the centerfires are 30 calibers,
mostly 30-06 or 308 and a couple two or three .223 rifles.

7x57 Mauser  22 hornet    i like the way you think, two of my favorite(s)  contact nickle he sells and ships ammo. 30-30 's not that hard to find though,

anyone have a line on a odd little cartridge i found loose in my gun case it's a 25-20   looks cool, wanted to know if anyone has info on it?

[Nickle]

There's 2 different 25-20's. One is the 25-20 Single Shot, the other 25-20 Repeater.

The 25-20 Single Shot is out of production, and brass is not available. We make very little of it.

The 25-20 Repeater is still in production, Winchester is currently making it, and others may be.

Google "25-20" ammo (or "25-20" brass) and see if you get any hits (I know you will using the search with brass).

[VAshooter]

I do have a bolt action single shot Mauser in 11.15mmX60R. It's a cute little cavalry carbine in almost new condition. A great brush gun and the first generation of a long line of great bolt action rifles by Mauser.

I only shoot black powder in it with cast lead bullets and use lots of SPG lube.

VAshooter

[VaWolf]

I have a 1895 Styer straight pull carbine in Austrian 8x50 rimmed. Was all ready to sell it then I found some custom made ammo out of 45-70 brass. This load used regular .323 dia bullets but Hornady custom ammo for 8x56R uses .329 dia. bullets. I can't seem to find load data anywhere.   Tommy

[Nickle]

There's several sources for data.

http://www.amazon.com/Handloaders-Manual-Cartridge-Conversion/dp/0883172690/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199369386&sr=8-1

WARNING, this book is NOT cheap. Expect to pay between $33 and $200 for a copy. I bought a hardcover copy of it new, and the price has about tripled in less than a year.

[Wade]

last time i looked j&g sales had .303 ammo in stock corrosive berdan primed ,cheap tho.

Wade

[Spatulaman]

Anyone have any hands-on experience with the K31 Schmidt Rubin and its 7.5x55 round? Not that I need to add another caliber to the "feed me" inventory, but the rifle intrigues me....

[Nickle]

I don't, but I know a bunch of folks that do.

They say the K31 is GREAT. Accurate, too.

Truth be known, it has only one downside.

Ammo isn't real cheap, and not overly available.

Norma makes brass, it isn't cheap (Norma never is), but should last quite some time.

So, for a reloader, the K31 is an OK route to go.

[Spatulaman]

 Was wondering how it would hold up under strenuous (read "sodden fields of Flanders") use. I realize that, while a straight-pull, it does not have the breeching system of the ill-fated Ross (another straight-pull). I've handled a couple, but never had the opportunity to fire one. And, as an aside, the mil-spec ammo seems to be back on the market- it's not cheap, but it's not "expensive" anymore, not when compared to current 7.62x51 prices.

[Francis Marion]

The Austrian, French, and German 8mm projectile diameters are inconveniently different.  Too bad they're not all 0.323". 
Awhile back in the local sporting goods store, asked the clerk to see an M95.  As is proper, the clerk attempts to verify the rifle is clear prior to handing it to me.  Did everything to that bolt short of pulling it back to open it. 
"Hmm, it's jammed," he says with resignation. 
"That's a straight-pull; you don't have to rotate the bolt to open it, you just yank it straight back toward you." says I.
CLUNK-SNAP! Well, that worked.  Clerk thinks this is the coolest thing ever.  "Do these really shoot?"
"Oh yes, as well as the day they were made, and so do all those Enfields, Mausers and Moisins over there.  You can buy a rifle, and get a case of ammunition mailed right to your door."
"Now that would be cool."
Then, a trio of high school kids ogling the airguns echo the question, "What! you mean those old rifles really do shoot?"
"Yes they do, and each one of you should have one.  You can shoot them at 600 yards right here on the base."
"Why would we even want to?" says they.
This rejoinder stuns me; they amble off in their precariously cinched, XXXL-sized, too-long pants before I could find the words necessary to educate these kids re. their American heritage and duty. 
We have so much work to do, folks, to elevate the mentality of our kids. 
Two out of five people acting like Americans. 

[scopeboy001]

just wanted to thank everyone involved in this thread

when i first created it i had no clue that it would be so quickly, and actively embraced
i posted this msg at around noon and i can almost guarentee it will have been read at least twice before i check the thread today after-school

so thank-you all posters and readers for your vigilance.

also i plan on starting a new thread for shotgun shooters/ reloaders soon too,
with that said i can only hope that is is as readily embraced as this one.

thank you all
                   -scopeboy001

[scopeboy001]

The Austrian, French, and German 8mm projectile diameters are inconveniently different.  Too bad they're not all 0.323". 
Awhile back in the local sporting goods store, asked the clerk to see an M95.  As is proper, the clerk attempts to verify the rifle is clear prior to handing it to me.  Did everything to that bolt short of pulling it back to open it. 
"Hmm, it's jammed," he says with resignation. 
"That's a straight-pull; you don't have to rotate the bolt to open it, you just yank it straight back toward you." says I.
CLUNK-SNAP! Well, that worked.  Clerk thinks this is the coolest thing ever.  "Do these really shoot?"
"Oh yes, as well as the day they were made, and so do all those Enfields, Mausers and Moisins over there.  You can buy a rifle, and get a case of ammunition mailed right to your door."
"Now that would be cool."
Then, a trio of high school kids ogling the airguns echo the question, "What! you mean those old rifles really do shoot?"
"Yes they do, and each one of you should have one.  You can shoot them at 600 yards right here on the base."
"Why would we even want to?" says they.
This rejoinder stuns me; they amble off in their precariously cinched, XXXL-sized, too-long pants before I could find the words necessary to educate these kids re. their American heritage and duty. 
We have so much work to do, folks, to elevate the mentality of our kids. 
Two out of five people acting like Americans. 

sorry frace i know that must have rattled you but i can assure you that not all of us "kids" are like the ones that you encountered, 70-85% of the people that i know in my age group (sophmore HS) would readily embrace the shooting sports if they had the opportunity presented to them. the only thing restraining the kids that you encountered is the fact that they were obviously never really exposed to the shooting sports, the real thing to do is to EDUCATE THE PARENTS, motivate them and you then expose the children to "our world" of shooting.

[Francis Marion]

Anyone have any hands-on experience with the K31 Schmidt Rubin and its 7.5x55 round? Not that I need to add another caliber to the "feed me" inventory, but the rifle intrigues me....

K31 is a modern, strong, front-locking, well made rifle.  The big plus here is that this European 30 cal is identical to US 30 cal; you can use 0.308 slugs!  
I'm happy with my $99, matching serial #, mint bore, accurate K31.  
These weapons saw garrison and training duty, and their condition testifies to this.  K31's are also the rifle cast-offs of... a nation of riflemen.  They're as nice as Swedish Mausers as far as condition, have been cared for by serious shooters, have good triggers, and are accurate.
Brass is available from Norma and a few others now, just shop around online or in SGN.  Ball is expensive, yes, but get reloadable brass instead.  
Schmidt Rubins are good rifles for people who are willing to reload, or else are so wealthy that they can shoot ball with no worries.
7.5 ball never is cheap, probably never will be.
Select for a rifle with matching serial # bolt & receiver (easy to do, they're usually that way anyhow) - headspace is likely to be good then, and the mechanism will have been fit together, as intended, by the original craftsmen and will be slick, not clunky.
Unlike two M1889 Schmidt Rubins in the family which, for some reason, had their bolts swapped, and then the eventual misfortune of having one rifle stolen.  Before the bolt swap, the action was described as working 'smooth as glass.'
Only K31 downside, in my opinion, is the lack of an aperture sight.    

[wtr100]

Only K31 downside, in my opinion, is the lack of an aperture sight.   

check out the MK31MC

http://www.mojosights.com/order.html 

kinda the tech sights of the milsurp world