KWSS After Action

[wildman]

One year we will get a cold rainy day or with luck snow for the KWSS but not this year. The weather was uncooperative the high for the afternoon was in the 60's, with clear skies, no clouds, no wind. It's too bad we couldn't of had the shoot on Friday when the high was in the 40's under cloudy skies. 

The course was tough and the "F" targets were very challenging.  The 400 yd "F" target in the left lane was invisible to the naked eye until well after three. The light does that but the shooters changed lanes between exercise one and two so no one had a advantage. This course was not for beginners it required a lot of skill and a rifle in top working order plus ammo up to job. To hit the "F"at 500 your talking one MOA maybe two. This is not something to be afraid but something to work for.

One shooter qualified with a score of 146 it took 141 to qualify. Koma second highest with a 131. Redwolf who had never visited the range before came in third with 129 pretty good. All had scoped rifles.

Shooting a qualifying score doesn't just happen it takes effort lots of effort. You can get there when and if your ready to do the work. What did you do today to get ready for next year?

See ya at the range
wildman

[Santander]

Great shoot, Wildman. I thoroughly enjoyed it.
I'd like to make one clarification for those who are reading but could not attend...  all of the scores you mentioned were from people operating scoped rifles. There were, I believe, 3 iron sighted rifles on the line. As one of those iron sighted operators I gotta say that the head shots at 4 & 500 were tough (but doable). 
Frankly, I learned an awful lot about my M1A and my abilities during that shoot (more than any other events in the past). I enjoyed the challenge. However, that being said, I believe that I will be bringing my scoped bolt rifle next time.  ;-)

Tony

[wildman]

Thanks for the feed back it means a lot. Perhaps we can find a way to have a sniper course that favors iron sights. Maybe the WWII event will evolve into an iron sight only event. Although we have never excluded various types equipment before and I hate to start. Two different scoring systems might fill that bill. The iron sight shooter like the scope shooter needs to see the target that's for sure.

It's great you could come, hope you make it back soon.

[Fred]

     Wildman is taking some poetic license on the "one or two minute" F-target at 500.

     An official F-target at that range is 19" high and 26" wide (at least 6" of that width is pretty narrow in elevation).

     I know people on this site can figure out that that's  nearly 4 MOA by 5+ MOA. To the extent it appears smaller, it's issues of visibility.

     wildman is right that the KW sniper course is an order of magnitude tougher than the stripped-down, absolutely basic WW2 course that only went out to 400 yards.

     The WW2 school is definitely an "iron-sights OK" course.

     The KWSS can be done with iron sights, but is definitely tougher to do it that way.

     I'd hate to see an "iron-sight only" SS because I'd hate anyone to feel excluded from what is really a historical exercise that you come to, not only for the shooting skill improvement, but for the experience of doing it.

     Which is why I wouldn't want the KWSS to be designated "Scopes only" even if scopes would be a big help.

     If you want to really test your iron-sighted shooting skills, there's hardly a better way to do it at either of the RWVA US Army Sniper Schools.

     However, if you bring a scope, it doesn't become an easy "walk-thru", so you'll also be putting your skills to test.

      Any time you test your skills, you're liable to find out they're improved after you get done with the testing!

     So continue to bring your iron-sighted rifles with you. Far from laughing, the guys "who know what they are about" will look on you with more respect, not less.

    And you'll be stepping up to the plate for a worthy challenge, something I'm afraid most of your fellow rifle owners are not willing to do...

[Koma]

 Wildman, Thanks once again for running the shoot and all the set up and other prep that goes along with it. For those not there Wildman was the lone qualifier. I think the course should not change as it is as close to the original as possible but that we should recognize those shooting with or without. It is not always the highest scorer that is the best shot as a scope is a large help. I know Jack, Seibie?, and Wildman are excelent iron sight shooters but do not always score the highest. Widman thanks again for this unique opertuneity. Also I have come across an extra set of scope cover's when I unpacked. Please IM me and I will ship them to you.

[shaky-jake]

I just wanted to pass along a quick thank you to Wildman and everyone else who helped out with the shoot on Saturday.  I also wanted to apologize for not being able to stay to help square things away.

I had a great time and learned a lot about my rifle and things I need to work on.  Thanks again and hope to see everyone on the range real soon.

[Nickle]

Sounds like we're going to have get a duplicate event going up here in the Northeast sometime.

Don't worry, we won't hold it in December, but rather in January. Gets pretty close to Korean winter conditions up here from December through early March. The January event would definitely be a "Frozen Chosin" event.

The problem will be finding a range to use. Jericho is out, as they don't plow any where near close to that  particular range. And the snow gets pretty deep.

[Santander]

Fred,
I believe that for KWSS shoot, on the scorecard the "D" target was the full silhouette whilst the target designated by "F" was the head-shot target (or approx 6 inches wide).  Since the 500 yd targets were really at approx 470 yards away, that would make the head-shot targets approx 1.25 moa targets. (?)

What was really an interesting learning experience was seeing how the light affected the white targets downrange. Imagine if they had been camouflaged. Target detection was very challenging with the naked eye. Us iron sighters relied on teamwork with our observer to help detect the targets and adjust fire, especially in the morning with the haze.  It was an excellent experience.
And no, I would not suggest that this become a scopes-only event. If any changes were made, I would suggest that the scorecard have a place to indicate equipment and whether it is scoped or not.

Tony

[wildman]

Fred maybe correct on target size (all our shorties "F" are home made) however only the head pottion was showing hence 1 to 2 MOA. Oh well, I told you it was challenging. Thanks to all of you for your comments and help on the range. It is a lot of work but I love it and I am glad you do also.

I wasn't going to say it, it was I who shot the 146 but since Koma did. Exercise 2 the eight target pairs timed was a blast. When I hit 16 targets with 17 shots believe me I was....can't describe it. The feeling was great. That doesn't just happen and anybody can do if they apply themselves.

[Old Dog]

For what it's worth, I've heard wildman say more than once that sometimes you may not be able to see the target with your iron sights but if you found it with the binoculars you can hit it by aiming where you know it is in relation to the things you can see around it.  Since many snipers have a combination spotter and back up (often carrying a semi auto rifle and not always scoped) I wonder if anyone worked with a partner/spotter on this event?  Did anyone say "no!" no teamwork?  I'd be surprised if they did because Fred is always preaching the value of teamwork.  Keep it in mind for next year.  Get a partner, practice together and take advantage of the improved performance of working together to get the job done.

Now let me say I have a scope on my M1A (have had almost since I had it - hey, it was my deer rifle, and even so I can't focus on the front sight anymore anyway).

If it was easy how many times would you go back?  Nobody goes back because it was easy (boring).  The go back because they felt the challenge and the (personal) sting of not doing as well as they KNOW they are capable of doing and they want the opportunity to put in some more practice, polish their skills/technique and prove to themselves (and everybody else) that they are Americans who can get it done when they have to!  If you don't think that's why they keep going back then why do they expend the time and money to improve their skills.  We don't give up, we get better and go back (and you know it).

[Redwolf]

I want to thank Wildman for a great shoot. I learned more about my skill and what the rifle can do in that one day. The best part is, I met a bunch of great people.  I was real impressed with the guys shooting with iron sights. I have iron on my FAL and once I get through one of the Apple seeded  BC's I hope to bring it up and do some work with it. That would defiantly be a challenge for me to look forward to.
Wildman I have a suggestion for the future on the score sheet just have the shooter put iron or scope, then tally the list to match. Top iron , Top scope.
That aside I had a great time and thanks to all for a great day. I hope and plan to attend soon and often. The New Years day is sounding good I'll work on getting my ducks line up.

[wildman]

Yes, everyone had a spotter/scorer. Understand this, some great shots were made with non-scoped rifles. We all tried to help by spotting the splashes. I think everyone, at least that I spoke with since thought the course was about right. Our youngest shooter shooting a Rem 03-A3 nailed the head of the "F" target at max range several times something wonderful to watch. The course was set up to be a challenge for a scoped rifles so although the non-scoped shooters were not able to get that 141 points they did a great job.