Author Topic: Private Land?  (Read 2836 times)

Offline Hugh

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Private Land?
« on: June 10, 2010, 11:57:49 AM »
Whats involved having a shoot on private land?
Does the landowner need his own insurance?
I know of a farmer who a little "range" on his farm in N.W. Jersey, but I might need some help on reassuring him on his liabilities and safety concerns.
Everybody in NJ is always worried about getting sued!
Any feedback is welcome.
Thanks
Hugh

Offline Ratchett

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Re: Private Land?
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2010, 12:18:28 PM »
Hugh,

This was posted a couple of months ago  http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=13001.0

Maybe it will help, best wishes with this range.

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Remember only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you: JESUS CHRIST and the AMERICAN ARMED FORCES.
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Offline Hugh

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Re: Private Land?
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2010, 08:02:21 PM »
Thank You Nurse Ratchett,
So does this mean a AppleSeed held on Private land can be covered by the RWVA policy?

Offline Ratchett

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Re: Private Land?
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2010, 08:09:20 PM »
Yes, if it is deemed a Designated Appleseed Range (DAR) and it is an Appleseed sanctioned shoot. PM your state coord (unfortunately I do not know who that is--shame on me!) or Meanstreaker (He is the Ohio St Coord) I am sure he will help. I will send him a PM as well so that he knows a little about what is needed.

In His Grip,
Ratchett
Remember only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you: JESUS CHRIST and the AMERICAN ARMED FORCES.
One died for your soul, the other for your freedom-Unk

"The propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which Heaven itself has ordained."---Geo Washington, 1789

Those who hope in the Lord will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles.---Isaiah 40:31

A wrathful man stirs up strife,
But he who is slow to anger allays contention.---Prov15:18

"Wisdom is higher than a fool can reach." --P. Wheatley

Offline Another D.O.M.

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Re: Private Land?
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2010, 11:30:08 PM »
The NJ State Coordinator is:

Michael Pannone "Mikep" *
1064 A Long Beach Blvd
North Beach, New Jersey 08008
609-618-5494
michaelpannone@msn.com
NJ@appleseedinfo.org

MJA
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Offline B9

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Re: Private Land?
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2010, 06:38:41 AM »
Hugh,

 This is also something to get with an Senior Instructor to check out the location for safety, suitability, functionality, etc. Satellite images need to be looked at to see whats behind the backstop (or where the backstop would be).
You know kDan, right? Check with him as to putting an eyeball on the place.

You know this farmer? Really KNOW him? Does he KNOW what Appleseed is all about? Is this a guy you BBQ and watch the Yankees basketball games with or a guy that you see at the hardware store once in a while.
I ask from experience.

If all that starts checking out good a check into local zoning laws would be prudent.
"It's very hard to engineer another countries liberation...people have to liberate themselves. Unfortunately in history, many people get killed..."
Medea Benjamin

Offline Hugh

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Re: Private Land?
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2010, 09:24:17 AM »

Thanks Another DOM, B9, and Nurse Ratchett,

All good information, your feedback is very helpful.
I ask these questions because I'm working on my "sales pitch" for the project, eventually I need to hit the Ranges here in New Jersey once I'm polished enough. (I won't approach a range without the help of the SC or someone more seasoned)
After reading the posts on the Jersey board, places to shoot seem to be one of the biggest obstacles, so I really want to work on that.
Also promoting the Appleseed Project takes a little practice, so the more info the better (more tools in my toolbox) .
Thanks again and keep the suggestions coming!
Hugh

Offline Fred

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Re: Private Land?
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2010, 09:52:02 AM »

    Two main questions to ask a potential DAR-owner:

        1. How likely are your neighbors to be disturbed/complaining about gunfire - even .22s?

        2. What are the safety issues? (The owner prob won't know, which is why we look at the overhead photos, as well as ask specific questions like 'how high is the backstop?' and 'what is behind the backstop? Woods? Houses?')

     Certainly important is firing line width - either current or potential.

     A start-up AS with room for a dozen is a possibility - which means a firing line about 50' wide. More is better, of course.

     Other questions: access in inclement weather, sanitary facilites (RWVA will reimburse for a portajon), firing line in inclement weather (under water, overhead protection from sun and rain?).

     PM "Greg in MO" for more info - he's the official DAR Coordinator.

     Yes, our insurance will apply, as Nurse Ratchett says, to any official RWVA event.
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Offline dwarven1

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Re: Private Land?
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2010, 10:04:27 AM »
Yes, our insurance will apply, as Nurse Ratchett says, to any official RWVA event.

Fred, that's even if it's not a DAR, right? For example, if this farmer doesn't want to commit to the 12 shoots a year we'd like to see at a DAR? I was looking for that point before I posted a reply but apparently my search-fu is weak.
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Offline Cowdog

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Re: Private Land?
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2010, 10:39:06 AM »
Dwarven,
My understanding is that a DAR does not need 12X per year, but this is a goal.  This year we are doing 5, due to range access issues in spring and winter.
As long as RWVA does not put money into permanent site imrpovments, the relationship can be ended by either party at will.

Hugh,
I am a farmer that likes to shoot, which sounds like your guy in New Jersey. If he is like other farmers, time and money are his greatest enemies. If the site is going to work, maybe take some targets out, do some shooting with him? Then  offer to help him with some chores so he can get to an AS at another location and see what it is about? Getting away from a farm for two days can be  tough.

You can also have him call me; PM for phone number. 

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Offline Fred

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Re: Private Land?
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2010, 11:27:15 AM »
Yes, our insurance will apply, as Nurse Ratchett says, to any official RWVA event.

Fred, that's even if it's not a DAR, right? For example, if this farmer doesn't want to commit to the 12 shoots a year we'd like to see at a DAR? I was looking for that point before I posted a reply but apparently my search-fu is weak.

    Yep, since every RWVA official shoot - like an AS - is covered by our insurance, the status of the site is not an issue.

    Thanks for weighing in on this thread, Cowdog!
"Ready to eat dirt and sweat bore solvent?" - Ask me how to become an RWVA volunteer!

      "...but he that stands it now, deserves the thanks of man and woman alike..."   Paine

     "If you can read this without a silly British accent, thank a Revolutionary War veteran" - Anon.

     "We have it in our power to begin the world over again" - Thomas Paine

     What about it, do-nothings? You heard the man, jump on in...

Offline dwarven1

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Re: Private Land?
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2010, 12:07:41 PM »
Thanks for the clarification, Fred.

Hugh, PM me if I can help you out. I don't get down to NJ too often, but I try to get there every 2-3 months (got family there still). And I'll certainly come down to SB the event if you need me.

Also, I'm working on a PowerPoint to be used to present to a club, so when I get it tweaked I can send it to you. (my instructor at my NRA Instructor's class told me on Saturday that I was giving a presentation to the class on Sunday... so after I got my take home test finished I got to spend a couple of hours on THAT, too! Needs to be polished up, though, first.) (Yes, Fred, I'll post it when it's done  ;))

Ross
Unhappy it is ... to reflect that a brother's sword has been sheathed in a brother's breast, and that the once happy and peaceful plains of America are either to be drenched with blood or inhabited by slaves. Sad alternative! But can a virtuous man hesitate in his choice?

GEORGE WASHINGTON

Offline Hugh

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Re: Private Land?
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2010, 12:49:40 PM »

Thanks All! Great stuff. I will keep you all posted on my progress.

Offline Arrigetch

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Re: Private Land?
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2010, 11:49:26 PM »
I think the biggest obstacle around here (NW New Jersey) is the neighbors (even if they aren't that close - it's the noise).  I shoot in my backyard all the time, and have AQT targets set up (helped me get the rifleman patch being able to practice regularly).  Neighbors don't have a problem with me and a couple friends shooting for an hour or so.  However, if I had a whole bunch of people shooting 8 hours a day for two days straight you better believe they would have a problem!  And even though we're rural, this is still NJ where city slickers sometime move out to, and to them gunfire usually means gangs, they just aren't used to it.

I think that's the real issue.  I would make sure the farmer understands what an Appleseed is like.

Offline Fred

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Re: Private Land?
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2010, 08:39:43 AM »

     Arrigetch, no one ever said it was gonna be easy.

     The answer to the 'neighbors' would be .22-only, and a lot of publicity about the event, to anticipate any claims of "what's going on over there?" and "no one told us".

     If a small town nearby, you might be able to piggyback the first AS on top of any local celebration ("Buzzard's Day" or whatever) - people are used to a lot of different events - and AS is indeed "an old-time shootin' match - just like in the old days" - and tells the history to prove it.

      We can't rule out any location because of noise - that would eliminate half the country. So we might explore ways to reduce noise - .22-only being one of them (this would not eliminate a brief centerfire long-range event Sunday PM). It might even be possible to set up temp noise absorbent baffles improvised out of cheap/free material (fiberglass insulation comes to mind).

     I even have plans for an underground range - as you can guess, it would be expensive - but if we have a permanent location in a poplulated area, worth exploring as an idea.

      "Whatever!" as they say. We have to have AS in every corner of this country.

       We need to have a serious determination in this program to prevail over all obstacles - because they will be many and often.
"Ready to eat dirt and sweat bore solvent?" - Ask me how to become an RWVA volunteer!

      "...but he that stands it now, deserves the thanks of man and woman alike..."   Paine

     "If you can read this without a silly British accent, thank a Revolutionary War veteran" - Anon.

     "We have it in our power to begin the world over again" - Thomas Paine

     What about it, do-nothings? You heard the man, jump on in...

Offline Hugh

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Re: Private Land?
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2010, 10:41:56 AM »

Hey, Arrigetch thanks for jumping in!
It's refreshing to hear some feedback from someone here in New Jersey! Right On!
As Mr. Fred pointed out a .22 only shoot is the answer for noise.
As far as I know people here in Jersey are used to alot of shotgun noise during Hunting season (because that's all you can use) so as as I see it's an easy sell.
The land owner I have in mind is out in Warren County with few neighbors and the ones he has are very far away and these guys skeet shoot all day with 12 gauges.

Hugh

Offline featherblue

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Re: Private Land?
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2010, 01:13:02 AM »

A good idea in non-gun friendly areas is to contact the local cop shop dispatch ahead of the shoot. Inform them of the dates and give them a bunch of fliers to look at and hand out to others in the "shop". This will give the cops an informed answer to a neighbor who calls in a 911 "Help, gun fire in the neighborhood" call.  ;) Be sure to invite the cops to the shoot or at least to drive by and check out the fun.

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Offline Arrigetch

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Re: Private Land?
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2010, 12:28:53 AM »

Hey, Arrigetch thanks for jumping in!
It's refreshing to hear some feedback from someone here in New Jersey! Right On!
As Mr. Fred pointed out a .22 only shoot is the answer for noise.
As far as I know people here in Jersey are used to alot of shotgun noise during Hunting season (because that's all you can use) so as as I see it's an easy sell.
The land owner I have in mind is out in Warren County with few neighbors and the ones he has are very far away and these guys skeet shoot all day with 12 gauges.

Hugh

Hugh, I am in north Warren.  I can help you check out the farm / talk with the farmer if you want.  Can also go up in my cub to look at the layout of the area.  I have a couple of neighbors with whom I shoot -- while their properties (as mine) aren't really suited for a large 2-day, public event like this (parking, layout, facilities, etc), I do believe they may know other farms in the area that more closely fit the requirements.

Fred, I hear what you are saying, but around here need to be very concious of the neighbors (and I only mostly shoot just .22 rifles in my backyard for that reason - and never shoot for very long).  Maybe the farmer to which Hugh refers has more distant neighbors than I do.  BTW, that small town near me to which you refer banned shooting ranges after the last "old time" shoot.  I'd be more inclined to go after the "low hanging fruit" first.  There is a list of official ranges here:  http://www.njguns.com/clubs.htm.

Have all these ranges been contacted?  They already are shooting ranges, so neighbors shouldn't complain about the noise etc.  They already have adequate parking, backstops, etc.

In NW NJ, there is not only Cherry Ridge, but also Shongum in Hackettstown (not on that list):  http://www.shongum.org/.  Has anyone contacted them?  While they are private, they may still be interested in hosting (would benefit their members as well as other interested members of the public).

Secondly, is there a hosting package that can be handed out to potential ranges (or even farmers) who may be interested in hosting an event?  I would expect that this would include a backgrounder of what Appleseed is all about and why, the benefits of attending an Appleseed, what the requirements for an event are (as in range requirements, parking, rest facilities, etc etc), what an Appleseed is like, how Appleseeds are safety concious events / how safety is enforced, information about liability and insurance... everything that a potential hoster might want to know and entice them to say "yes" if they are a good fit.  Show that RWVA has already thought about the hoster's concerns, takes them seriously, and is on top of their game!

Just some thoughts here.  I am willing to help out as an IIT level 0.

Offline Hugh

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Re: Private Land?
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2010, 09:44:38 AM »

Arrigetch, great thoughts I will definitely keep you in the loop with my progress, PM me if would like meet and compare notes sometime.
I'm a newbie down in Bergen County and am willing to help out in any way.
I think a "hosting package" is a great idea for potential ranges and for myself to use as a guide in building a confident "sales pitch". I don't have much range experience, yet, but I'm working on that as well.
I also think that "we" should really push to have some more events at this Winslow NJ range and expand from there. I think it would be easier to convince new ranges if we a place in state that has had Appleseed's with positive results.
I'm open to all thoughts and suggestions form anyone on how to market and expand the project here in NJ. 

Hugh

Offline dwarven1

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Re: Private Land?
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2010, 02:11:24 PM »
Secondly, is there a hosting package that can be handed out to potential ranges (or even farmers) who may be interested in hosting an event? 

Ask, and it shall be given you: http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?board=35.0

Hugh, as a former Jersey boy, I know how "easy" it is to get from north to south Jersey, especially in the summer. It'd be good to have ranges on both sides of the Raritan. It'd be a good thing to reach out to the folks at South Jersey Shooting to see if they'd be OK with us giving their contact info to the farmer, or Cherry Ridge as a reference.
Unhappy it is ... to reflect that a brother's sword has been sheathed in a brother's breast, and that the once happy and peaceful plains of America are either to be drenched with blood or inhabited by slaves. Sad alternative! But can a virtuous man hesitate in his choice?

GEORGE WASHINGTON