Another KD day in Virginia

[jmdavis]

Virginia just completed another KD day at the Buckingham DAR. What began as an informal opportunity to meet Sprockit from Mass, turned into some warm-up, a 25m AQT and a KD AQT.

The results of that included another Virginia Instructor N2Oguy qualifying with a 214 on the KD AQT (which matched the 214 he shot at 25m earlier in the day).

Sprocket used a borrowed AR and some 15 year old IMI M855 ammunition to score a 218 on the 25m AQT and turn in a respectable score on his first KD (and first shooting beyond 150 yards). VAWolf had to work through some rifle issues but still shot a good KD score. Smwoody and I traded off on some shooting, line bossing and coaching throughout the day.

All in all I think that everyone had a great day. I know that I did.

[VAshooter]

Thank you guy's for doing the hard work in Virginia while I was down in Charlotte, NC looking at all the shiny things at the NRA Convention. My finger prints are on a lot of cool looking guns, knives and such. Spent some time talking with Lones Wigger about Eley 22 cal ammo and I think he agreed with me that instead of manufacturing ten different levels  of ammo they only needed two. The good stuff and the other stuff.

I wore my instructors hat and got some positive comments from other Appleseed attendees and explained the program to others who had not been aware of what we are doing. I spent about half an hour discussing the Constitution and the Revolution with one of the higher up's at Hillsdale College which has a very well known Constitutional Studies program.

Next year it will be in Pittsburgh.

VAshooter

[Sprocket]

AAR - My impression from first Know Distance shoot

So I met these guys on the internet with the biggest pig smoker I've ever seen and they invited me out into the woods for a fun afternoon.  One old guy want to show us his indiscretions but we all politely looked away.  Later he was showing off his special dispensation and we were polite again.  Apparently I need to get one of those dispensation things because he shot pretty well and scored his KD Rifleman...

After initial introductions we got into the task at hand - punching holes in paper from really far away.  It was a casual day of shooting with a few points of coaching and much discussion of most things AS instruction.  The experience of shooting at Know Distance is something that we should all try to gain because it is different from the 25M distances we typically use.

I was coached through the AQT style that works well for KD shooting - it's very different than the Rapid Fire AQT's commonly used up North.  Instead of the 4 minutes/40 rounds it's broken out into stages, some involve starting from a standing position with transition into shooting position as well as a mag change during the course of fire.  I think this approach works well for the KD AQT because you can't effectively shoot a Rapid Fire AQT without living in a dessert.

You see, the berm doesn't move and there's only one berm.  The target must stay close to the berm so it can do it's job of protecting cows, trees and all things behind said berm.  The shooters must move back.  So no, you can't practically shoot the whole AQT rapid fire but you can use rapid fire cadence on each stage.

About the only thing that is exactly the same between the 25M and the KD AQT is the sight picture - the target really does scale and look exactly like the 25M targets - tall grass aside.  Things get trickier the further you get back from the target - the 6 steps of the shot are the same, exactly the same but what changes is the distance on the paper when you make mistakes.  At 25M, a scored shot of 3 instead of a 5 is about 1/4 to 3/8 of an inch for the 400M stage - but at 400 meters the difference is over a foot or more - trust me I have proved this and well.

The Rapid Fire AQT is great at 25M but not a practical course of fire for a full range AQT.  If practice makes you good at what you practice, then the method doing the AQT in stages, even at 25M works because once you move out to actual distances those methods are exactly what you need to have practiced in order to succeed on that course.

The question was posed to me:
What do I think about the KD AQT and the possibility of requiring future instructors to qualify using it as part of the requirements for becoming an instructor.

Answer:
I think the 25M Rifleman should not go away, nor do I think it should be a limiting factor to becoming an instructor.

I think it should be a prerequisite for shooting a KD AQT though.  Just as shooting a 220 score as a goal became a test, then an obsession, then a milestone in my Appleseed Trail so has a Know Distance score of Rifleman.  The KD AQT is the next step - I can walk but now I want to run with the big dogs - who, in this case are really cool fat old guys but that's beside the point.

Another fundamental thing about the KD AQT is that it somewhat defeats the intent of Appleseed techniques - please correct me if I'm wrong but one of the most popular selling points of an AS is that by using the 22LR rifle as a training tool shooters can economically practice their skills.  By moving back a full 400M pretty much forces the center fire rifle into the picture and the LTR out driving up the cost of shooting dramatically.

If 25M is economical training, the KD might then be called practical application of economic training.

So what started out a social time turned into an afternoon of exchanging techniques and experiences with practical application on the side.  Although it wasn't intended to be a formal shoot we got serious about things once we backed away from the berm - and it beat the heck out of golfing - the only thing missing was a heritage lesson - and lunch.

My sincere thanks to you Gents for both the hospitality and comradeship - let me know when you get that herd smoker up and running.

[jmdavis]

Hey Sprocket,

You're welcome anytime. It really was a fun day. But I'm afraid that your going to make N2Oguy overly sensitive about his "special dispensation..."

I think that your right about KD from the practical standpoint. But I don't think that it defeats the intent of AS in anyway. The way that I look at it is that twenty-five meter shooting gives you the fundamentals. But KD let's you fine tune those fundamentals in a practical way. When you are teaching, it really does help to be able to tell people that the same techniques they are learning hold true at 200,300,400 yards and even greater distances. It helps even more when you are absolutely certain through your own practical experience that these techniques work. I discovered at my IBC that my group size at 25m was my group size at 200. That showed me the practical value of the instruction.

In some ways I think that KD is easier than 25m shooting. Often times people will focus more at KD than at 25. At actual distances all of our mistakes are magnified. A little  vertical stringing caused by firing at different point in the breathing cycle on stage three becomes painfully evident at 300 yards. That one inch of horizontal stringing on stage 4 becomes 16 inches.  When we add in the wind and light, KD is a fun challenge.


I can use these techniques in hunting. I can amaze my friends by hitting 20" steel plates at 500 yards with a 55 year old rifle without optics.  But the real thing that I can do is keep the tradition of my forefathers alive. It is the tradition of men like Tim Murphy, Daniel Morgan, Billy Dixon, H.W. MacBride, and Carlos Hathcock. It is a tradition well worth keeping alive in their honor.

I enjoy 25m shooting and do it whenever I can. But I really enjoy taking out the centerfires and putting that 25m practice to work at known distance.

[jmdavis]

Carlos Hathcock in an interesting "sitting" position.

[Old Dog]

Four hundred yards ain't that far out there for a good rifle.  Shooting at "known" distances should help you learn to judge distance.  Next time you do it take a look at the front sight vs. the target (if you're using a target you know the size/width of) and remember what it "looks" like.  Once you learn what that sized target looks like vs. the front sight your mind will start to automatcally "range" for you.

Range estimation can be learned.  Practice it.  If you're shooting at a pepsi can or milk jug range estimation skills are much more important than if you're shooting a GI style pop up target.  Four inches low from the center of a D target is still a good hit.  Four inches low from the center of a pepsi can just throws dirt on the can (you can tell because the can flies away from the impact of the dirt where as a good hit allows the bullet to pass through the soft aluminum can without moving it - most of the time - hitting the rim will move it).

You want to learn/practice range estimation skills?  Take up varmint hunting.  No body shots, just head shots. 

Have fun.

[n2oguy]

Hey Guys, Would of posted sooner but my phone has been out all week--hence no PC.  Mike and Woody you really helped me a lot with BDC,Clicks,MOA etc. etc.I just squeezed the trigger. Thanks again.

Wolfman it was great seeing you again.



                                                               Richie

[VaWolf]

I had a lot of fun, found more bugs to work out on my centerfire rifles and of course learned a lot. A special thanks to Mike for the log book. I will be more prepared for the next full distance shoot. It was good meeting you Sprocket and look forward to seeing battle road in the future.   Wolfman

[agshooter]

Another KD day in VA in the works by any chance?  I would really like to do this. 

[jmdavis]

I expect that we will get one together toward the end of July or early August. We have a Buckingham Appleseed July 17-18 and Va Beach in August.

[FiremanEd]

Ag,

I know you've got your patch. If you're interested in becoming an Instructor, you could come shoot at the Buckingham shoot in July and then come to the Instructor Boot Camp 2 weeks later. Not only will you get to shoot a full distance 400 yard AQT, or two, or three during the class but you'd come out of the weekend as an Instructor In Training. If you're interested in taking that step..

FiremanEd

[agshooter]

Ag,

I know you've got your patch. If you're interested in becoming an Instructor, you could come shoot at the Buckingham shoot in July and then come to the Instructor Boot Camp 2 weeks later. Not only will you get to shoot a full distance 400 yard AQT, or two, or three during the class but you'd come out of the weekend as an Instructor In Training. If you're interested in taking that step..

FiremanEd

Maybe at some point way down the line.  I just plain don't have the time to make another big commitment.  I can't just tip toe into things, I usually dive in.  As I was talkign to Bulkhead and Catt, with a  one year old my free time is running thin.