NRA Highpower Shooters

[Ellis1958]

I'm throwing this out for discussion.

I'm in contact with a sizable number of NRA Highpower shooters. You know the guys. 600 yd slow fire prone with irons + 200 yd rapid fire offhand + 300 yd sitting. These guys could clean a 25m AQT course hungover after a night on Bourbon Street.

What can we do to bring this talent to Appleseed?

[Garand69]

 

1st, I have yet to see a Highpower Shooter walk on and clear the first AQT, They will usually score Rifleman the first Appleseed, but they still have a lot to learn (first being that 25M is a viable teaching/training/practice distance).

2nd, They WILL, learn tips and techniques that will raise their score, they WILL be a better Marksman.

3rd, The absolute most important part of the equation... they will learn the Heritage of their Nation and the Plan to Save the Nation. They will learn that it isn't all about them and their score, and that if they don't pass on their skills to the next generation, it dies with them.

Just my .02

[ashrn03]

I was a former Expert-Class NRA High Power competitor when my Club VP asked if I'd heard of the RWVA and suggested I look at their web site.  He believed Appleseed would fill a niche in our Club programs not met by the various NRA and 4H activities we support.  After looking at the Appleseed web site I agreed we needed to check out the program and the Club hosted an Appleseed in August 2008.  We were, of course, impressed with the marksmanship instruction and since both of us enjoy history, we liked that too.  If the VP hadn't suggested I look into Appleseed, it's doubtful I'd be involved with it today.  (Some would say that wouldn't be altogether bad, but that's another issue  )

As I tell Appleseeders, I learned three things at my first Appleseed that I wished I'd known when I started shooting high-power.  I know I would have materially improved my 600 yard scores.  I, like a lot of high-power shooters I knew, am essentially self-taught; I read some basic articles and started blazing away.  Looking back on my competitive days, competitors were genuinely welcomed to high-power matches, but since each attendee is a competitor there wasn't much organized effort toward helping other shooters improve.  Why improve the other guys skill set if you're trying to outscore him?

So here's a suggestion: Appleseed is a great intro to high-power and every Club with a high-power program can use more shooters.    Do your high-power shooters know how to teach shooting?  Attending an Appleseed will show them a logical, step-wise program of presenting the fundamentals.  There are five classifications for high-power shooters: Marksman, Sharpshooter, Expert, Master, and High Master.  The lower three grades have a few gaps in their knowledge: their classifications tell you that.  So casually ask them how they learned to shoot high-power?  Self-taught?  Hmm, possibly don't know about NPOA, Respiratory Pause, Rifleman's cadence? I really used to fuss those 600 yard shots!.

Hope this helps.
     

 

[txpirate]

Ellis, I, too, could've cleaned an 25m AQT hungover, hogtied, backwards, shooting with a mirror before I ever went to an Appleseed..... Until someone made me prove it. 

Not that I have any afiliation with Missouri, but I do like their state motto: "Show Me"

[jmdavis]

I have yet to see anyone clean an AQT, particularly not after a night drunk on Bourbon Street. I know one person who has cleaned it (an instructor), and I've watched several shoot in the low 240's at shoots that I've worked.


Now I have heard many people claim that an AQT at 25m is no challenge. Invariably, this claim precedes their attendance at an Appleseed.

[Ellis1958]

Now I have heard many people claim that an AQT at 25m is no challenge. Invariably, this claim precedes their attendance at an Appleseed.

One of the shooters I know is Distinguished Expert from shooting the leg matches and is on the Presidents 100 from Camp Perry. This the very upper tier of NRA High Power shooting. You can't deny his marksmanship. To his credit he has started a junior program and helped send a 6-man team of juniors to Camp Perry.

I'll keep working on it. If I can get one of the competitors to attend then he can spread the word to the others. BTW: I've also asked those in my 3-gun circle to attend. Getting a much more positive response there.

[Garand69]

Now I have heard many people claim that an AQT at 25m is no challenge. Invariably, this claim precedes their attendance at an Appleseed.

One of the shooters I know is Distinguished Expert from shooting the leg matches and is on the Presidents 100 from Camp Perry. This the very upper tier of NRA High Power shooting. You can't deny his marksmanship. To his credit he has started a junior program and helped send a 6-man team of juniors to Camp Perry.

I'll keep working on it. If I can get one of the competitors to attend then he can spread the word to the others. BTW: I've also asked those in my 3-gun circle to attend. Getting a much more positive response there.

Ellis1958,

I do not believe anyone is discounting your freinds skills, but you are comparing Appleseeds to Oranges.

Regardless of his current skills, everything in my first post still applies.

[VAshooter]

I've told this story before but Fred likes to hear me tell it so I'll do it again.

I used to shoot High Power competition. I was on one of the top service teams with professional coaches and professional gunsmiths to care for the weapons. We would travel around the country competing in the biggest matches and compete in the Inter-Service and National Championships each year. That was years ago and I quit when the services cut funding to the shooting teams but three years ago, I read about Appleseed and found one was going to be held close by.  
I signed up and shot all weekend, Fred was there instructing. Did I clean the AQT? No I didn't. I did shoot a 234 after eating three rounds on the sitting stage. I found that I couldn't get into my old sitting position as I had put on a few pound so I shot the sitting stage standing. It's amazing what a 36 year layoff can do to diminish your skills. When it was over I thought about what I'd experienced and realized that the things that Appleseed taught were the exact things I had done when I was a High Master service competitor. All of the skills I used are covered at a standard two day Appleseed. I knew no other "secrets".  I've been to a number of shooting schools and clinics. None of them taught how to shoot a rifle. I told Fred that I was impressed with his course and wanted to get involved and he directed me to a Riflemans Boot Camp at Ramseur. Now I'm in my fourth year and I'm still involved and I can't think of a better place to learn High Power that to shoot Appleseeds.

VAshooter

[Fred]

    Ya right, VA! I do enjoy reading your story. As do many others!

    Now, as to this:

Now I have heard many people claim that an AQT at 25m is no challenge. Invariably, this claim precedes their attendance at an Appleseed.

One of the shooters I know is Distinguished Expert from shooting the leg matches and is on the Presidents 100 from Camp Perry. This the very upper tier of NRA High Power shooting. You can't deny his marksmanship. To his credit he has started a junior program and helped send a 6-man team of juniors to Camp Perry...

    Shooting a high score on an AQT is pretty easy with match rifle and ammo. You want to remind any one with such equipment that the AQT is designed to be shot with standard rifles and surplus (factory) ammo - not with match equipment.

   Let's see 'em show their prowess by picking up a standard rifle and using store-bought ammo...and leaving off anything but a standard sling and cloth shooting jacket, if that. No spotting scope, no nothing.

    Suddenly, it becomes more challenging...

[PHenry]

Ellis,
I am a NRA HP shooter and know many of them. I tried for years to get them to come out and see what we do - I mean the COF is near identical right? And, these guys should be uber-concerned about Liberty right?

I did succeed in getting one guy to come out and he enjoyed it and did make Rifleman on first day - not first target. He did learn some things and found the pace quite hectic. The rest of them have either ignored me or have decided that I am beneath them and steer clear of me for the most part. I am something of a "black sheep" as I compete with a truly rack-grade rifle and ball ammo. I also refuse to wear the correct jacket, pants, shoes, glasses, hat, glove, sling, etc., etc. I refuse to compete with a rifle that is ill-suited to maintaining my Liberty, and that just goes right over most of their heads.

They are, to be kind, an odd bunch in my experience, who feel no concern for their Liberty because they have a "sporting purpose" for their rifles and nobody will ever try to take them away. They are above basic marksmanship and Appleseeds has nothing to teach them, as they already know everything.

Does this apply to all HP shooters? Of course not - just a lot of them. Should they become involved in a great marksmanship program and pass their considerable skills on to the next gen? Of course they should, but it is not in nature of the majority of them. Do I have a hard attitude on this matter - yes I do, but not without cause.

I wish it were different, but it is what it is and we have to focus our limited resources where they will have the greatest effect. Only hits count.

I do not say any of the above to dissuade you from trying - maybe your group will be differnt than mine here in Florida.

GOod luck sir,
PH

[txpirate]

Fred, is the double-or-nothing challenge still valid?

[fepowered]

I'm in contact with a sizable number of NRA Highpower shooters. You know the guys. 600 yd slow fire prone with irons + 200 yd rapid fire offhand + 300 yd sitting. These guys could clean a 25m AQT course hungover after a night on Bourbon Street.

What can we do to bring this talent to Appleseed?

Now I have heard many people claim that an AQT at 25m is no challenge. Invariably, this claim precedes their attendance at an Appleseed.

One of the shooters I know is Distinguished Expert from shooting the leg matches and is on the Presidents 100 from Camp Perry. This the very upper tier of NRA High Power shooting. You can't deny his marksmanship. To his credit he has started a junior program and helped send a 6-man team of juniors to Camp Perry.

I second the statement that these claims precede their attendance at an Appleseed and actually shooting an AQT.  I have witnessed distinguished shooters at an Appleseed.   They found attending to be a useful exercise.  No problem qualifying early in the first day, but definitely no "cleaning up".  Anyone claiming that attending Appleseed is a total waste of time is simply afraid to be proven wrong....

[Fred]

Fred, is the double-or-nothing challenge still valid?

Yep.

[SamD]

If HP shooters want to come that is fine.
They will even learn something about rifle marksmanship, guaranteed

That isn't why they should be coming.

[ashrn03]

Ellis,
I am something of a "black sheep" as I compete with a truly rack-grade rifle and ball ammo. I also refuse to wear the correct jacket, pants, shoes, glasses, hat, glove, sling, etc., etc.

Yeah, but you have more fun.    You're approaching it as an opportunity to maintain/develop shooting proficiency as a useful skill set, they're playing a game.  Amateurs worry about hardware - pro's worry about software.  And I suspect if you score better than they do, it annoys them no end.        

[Wheeler44]

(Wheeler grumblin' to himself) "Any of us that sat and let the '80's and '90's go by without passin' on what we knew, oughta be packin' a triple load of buckets to pay for our foolishness...........Sporting purpose...shooting jackets...think they know everything......   .25 MOA........INDEED....." mutter mutter grumble grumble... Ooops I spilled some there.....Hafta mop that up on the back down to the hold........

[Rhodes]

I agree with the wisdom Sam implied that Appleseed is not about putting holes in paper. Although I will talk to people about marksmanship I stress the quality of people and the mission of returning this country to a nation of riflemen and all that implies. Of course you invite them, its their country too and most likely as worried about it as anyone else.

This isn't about scores or titles its about being the best American Rifleman you can be and all that goes into it. People are fooling themselves about a great many things in this country today and its up to to RWVA and other such groups to correct that when ever possible as long as we have the courage to do so. Least we forget what is happening with our country courage may well be our greatest resource.