Ladies, what can we do to get even more women active in Appleseed?

[vic303]

Ladies, the title says it all--what CAN we do to improve participation in Project Appleseed?  I know we have some women IITs/Instructors etc, a fair number of AS attendees are women, Riflewoman does a TON of stuff, but what can you & I do? 

1.  How can we recruit more Appleseeders, especially women?

2.  How can we help expand the ranges available?

3.  How can we reach more folks to participate in Range Work Days?

4.  How can we reach the Jr High/ High School crowd?

What suggestions do y'all have?  What ideas of your own are you willing to share here?

--Vicky

[Trisha]

I have heard from a new IIT here in WI that some of her friends would like to come and shoot, but they don't want to do it around the guys. Idk why, maybe they are just shy or something or they think that the guys are going to pick on them. I really don't know, but one thing that might help with something like that would be to have more all women's ASs. I am not saying a ton of them because I personally like the diversity of it all, but having them may help get women out from hiding behind wherever they are hiding to come out and shoot.

[techres]

I have heard from a new IIT here in WI that some of her friends would like to come and shoot, but they don't want to do it around the guys. Idk why, maybe they are just shy or something or they think that the guys are going to pick on them. I really don't know, but one thing that might help with something like that would be to have more all women's ASs. I am not saying a ton of them because I personally like the diversity of it all, but having them may help get women out from hiding behind wherever they are hiding to come out and shoot.

If I might ask, would an all women participants event be useful or is it only useful to also have an all women training team?

I ask because I really would like to do an Indiana women's Appleseed event in the next 6 months but cannot produce an all women training team.  I could likely recruit a woman SB and perhaps a couple of instructors, but some men red hats would likely be needed in the mix.  

How much would it ruin the advantage of a woman's shoot if the entire training corps is not made up of women?  For those that would be drawn by it, is it an all or nothing deal?  

I take no insult if it is, I just want to know and understand so I can plan.

(We can take this to PM's if it is better to work out there.)

[vic303]

I don't know what having some men in the training mix do to an 'all women's' shoot.  Personally it does not bother me at all to shoot with the guys nor to have them instruct me.  But then again, I have seldom been accused of being shy and retiring!

I think it would be easier to get a mixed gender instructor cadre for an 'all female' participants shoot.  Didn't they have one like that this year somewhere?  Trisha, I think those ladies in WI would probably come out, and be ok with a mixed gender cadre, since the shooters would be all women.  I am guessing the real issue is with attending the Appleseed with their spouse/boyfriend.  I bet that is the heart of the problem.  I know I personally don't take instruction from my husband easily--there's just too much familiarity, and I get my stubborn on.  But I can easily take instruction from another guy--so for me anyway it is not a gender thing.  And I have read repeatedly on various gun forums that it is generally best not to take instruction from your spouse in order to preserve marital bliss  .

[Trisha]

There was an All women's AS in May at Wayland, IA, I was there instructing. At that time, we figured it would be best to have an all women's instructor corps and the only men that were there was Brokensling because he brought his daughter .5 and he was there to haul things around, but he didn't do any instruction. The other guy that was there was the land owner and he showed up everyone once in awhile to see how everything was going and to see how his daughter was doing. We thought that since it was supposed to be an ALL Women's AS that it should have ALL Women.

The women instructors came from NY, WI, IN, OH and MO. All the instructors were excited to be there for this all women's event. The line was small, but it was a bunch of shy women that probably wouldn't have gone if there were men, at least not to their first one.

techres, if you want an all women's AS, set one up and I would be more than happy to come instruct and there are a few other women instructors here in WI that I could probably drag along, and I know one female IL instructor that I could probably get too. If you want one don't let the the wondering of who will instruct it hold you back, there are women instructors that would love to do it. If you want this to go to PMs send me one and we can start figuring this out.

viv303, I do agree with you that many women don't want to go probably because they think their sig other will be the one instructing them, and I do see this a lot. When I am instructing, I kick them off that part of the line and personally instruct that person shooting. I do this with all family members actually.

I do love the diversity of AS, but once in awhile I think for some women that it is good for them to have an all women's AS.

[techres]

techres, if you want an all women's AS, set one up and I would be more than happy to come instruct and there are a few other women instructors here in WI that I could probably drag along, and I know one female IL instructor that I could probably get too. If you want one don't let the the wondering of who will instruct it hold you back, there are women instructors that would love to do it. If you want this to go to PMs send me one and we can start figuring this out.

PM sent!

[Whisker]

I was really happy when I heard of the all women event in Wayland last year.  This is an excellent way to bring out more women. 

An all-women Appleseed asserts that Appleseed is not a male organization.  We have to fight against mainstream stereotypes that gun culture is male dominated.  The all-women Appleseed changes the perception of Appleseed from "Women are welcome at Appleseeds" to "Women are Appleseed."  This is crucial. 

I think it is best to have an all-women instructor corps.  There are men who are conscious of their patriarchal tendencies... but it is too messy to make a selection process.  I say keep it easy, all women at an all-women Appleseed.

As for non-all women Appleseeds... It would be cool to have instructor corps that are majority women, just to turn the tide for once. 

The University of Iowa Feminist Club is considering attending the next Wayland, Ia Appleseed if the instructor corps is not patriarchal.  If we want to appeal to groups that don't value "mainstream" relations between men and women, I think it is wise to adapt and accommodate.  Otherwise, we'll hit a wall where our organization can be pinned down to improper assumptions about our cultural affiliations. 

[MeanStreaker]

There was a very lively discussion during last week's Osage Beach RBC about how to get women more involved.  Hopefully some ladies present will chime in to this thread.  They floated ideas about having alternate activities for those that did not want to be on the firing line all weekend.  Perhaps something like a WITO (Women in the Outdoors) seminar that teaches some camp skills, cooking with a dutch oven, etc.

[techres]

I was really happy when I heard of the all women event in Wayland last year.  This is an excellent way to bring out more women. 

An all-women Appleseed asserts that Appleseed is not a male organization.  We have to fight against mainstream stereotypes that gun culture is male dominated.  The all-women Appleseed changes the perception of Appleseed from "Women are welcome at Appleseeds" to "Women are Appleseed."  This is crucial. 

I think it is best to have an all-women instructor corps.  There are men who are conscious of their patriarchal tendencies... but it is too messy to make a selection process.  I say keep it easy, all women at an all-women Appleseed.

As for non-all women Appleseeds... It would be cool to have instructor corps that are majority women, just to turn the tide for once. 

The University of Iowa Feminist Club is considering attending the next Wayland, Ia Appleseed if the instructor corps is not patriarchal.  If we want to appeal to groups that don't value "mainstream" relations between men and women, I think it is wise to adapt and accommodate.  Otherwise, we'll hit a wall where our organization can be pinned down to improper assumptions about our cultural affiliations. 

This is great input for me and consider the mixed gender training question no longer on the table as it has be answered.  The response I have had in this thread and in PM's has taken away ANY staffing concerns I had.  Really.  Not an issue and I am very, very glad for it!

Thank you also for mentioning the college interest.  I am in an enormous college town and have been trying to include increasing numbers of college students and teachers to the program.  This is one more way to bring Appleseed to a more complete part of our community.

Thanks for the immediate responses and input!

[Whisker]

Unfortunately

There was a very lively discussion during last week's Osage Beach RBC about how to get women more involved. 

I must've missed that conversation down there..  Shoot.

Perhaps something like a WITO (Women in the Outdoors) seminar that teaches some camp skills, cooking with a dutch oven, etc.

...  Appleseed is about marksmanship.  The question is about how to give women better access to marksmanship skills, not cooking.  

[Whisker]

How about a "Riflewoman" patch?

I know some get uptight about political correctness taking over the mission.  This is about being accommodating more than being "PC". 

I can't spearhead this one, but my support is behind it!

[MeanStreaker]

Perhaps something like a WITO (Women in the Outdoors) seminar that teaches some camp skills, cooking with a dutch oven, etc.

...  Appleseed is about marksmanship.  The question is about how to give women better access to marksmanship skills, not cooking. 

Agreed.  However, the conversation in Osage was more, "How can we ease in women that absolutely refuse to shoot?  Also, how can we get wives of Instructors that don't want to instruct more involved so they feel 'part of the team' and don't resent all the time their spouses are away?" 

I certainly agree that having women on the firing line is ideal.

[Trisha]

Perhaps something like a WITO (Women in the Outdoors) seminar that teaches some camp skills, cooking with a dutch oven, etc.

Honestly, I would prefer that we wouldn't change that we keep it as marksmanship and heritage just like we normally have it. I feel like if we can get the women to one AS then they are going to want to come to another. If we change things up then that isn't truly AS and if they were to go to a second AS and it was all shooting, then they may not like it. Going to an AS is fun but it is hard, and when women get the chance to do it, they will get the chance to see that it isn't probably anything they expected, but it is well worth it. I hope that all makes sense...

[Trisha]

You make a good point MS, I have heard from many people that it is hard to get their spouses to an AS, (I guess I'm not one of them...), my question to you is, you've had your wife help with getting admin and food to the range, did she like doing that? Is that something she would be willing to do again? Does she have any imput on how to get more women involved such as herself? Like what does she want to happen, or need at an AS to get her there more?

Those might be questions any man in this program could ask because it isn't something that I can personally answer since I went to one before my husband(that was due to him being called away at work), but I was bribed to go...can you all bribe your sig other to go?   

[luv2Bfree]

I've come across some questions in the past five months that seem to be clinchers:  "Do you have to own a rifle to attend an Appleseed?" Also, if they don't have a FID or LTC (sorry, but I live in MA) they wouldn't be able to purchase/transport a firearm or ammunition for the shoot.

Well... I don't own one yet, but was lucky enough to have a relative who lent me his "for as long as you need it".
I know that some instructors have "loaner .22 rifles" at some of the shoots.

Another question is "do I have to have any prior experience shooting?"

I usually say that they would have an easier time learning, because they wouldn't have to break bad habits.  Also, all the instructors are volunteers, and wouldn't be there if they didn't REALLY want to.

Finally, I say that an Appleseed shoot is not a competition.  It's a lesson of American Heritage, with a practical shooting experience tied in.  Everyone learns at his/her own pace, and although a Rifleman score/patch is a trophy to strive for, leaving a shoot with knowledge and inspiration is a long-lasting prize.

Heck, I've been spreading the word to family (many females! aged 26 to 80), friends, and coworkers... and anyone who will listen to me.  My mom (80) said she'd attend a shoot in her town if I'd be an instructor there, so I'll sign up when it pops up on the 2010 list!   

[Trisha]

Have any of you looked at ASs homepage? at the pictures that are on it? well there isn't one of a woman. Can we get a couple of pictures up there with women? This might help because as I was looking at them, I was really trying to find a picture of one and there wasn't one that I could tell. There is a good one of two boys, but that is the only thing that is diverse about the pictures. Who takes care of the home page? Also going along with that, can we add some words on the home page saying something like, this is a program for everyone! Men, women and children! You know something like that?

I think it would be a good idea to really show them that AS is also for them and we need to show that at the first website they will be looking at, and that is the homepage. I know on the forum, we have a women of AS thread, but that is after they have gone will they probably see that. I didn't even know about it until months after my first AS.

Again, I think we need to be up front about it, and let them know that we want women there, so we need to show it in every aspect of AS!

[vic303]

On the main page you are right Trisha, but there is a whole Women of Appleseed page, in the top left pulldown menu, at the bottom.
http://www.appleseedinfo.org/women.htm

That page then crosslinks to our Women of Appleseed thread in this forum.
http://appleseedinfo.org/smf/index.php?topic=4577.0

Perhaps we could get the webmaster to swap one of the womens pics from the submenu page, onto the main page slideshow?  That would be a nice change.

[Trisha]

wow, I have been in this program for over a year and never saw that page! Maybe I just wasn't looking...

I think it would be a good idea to have one or two women picks on the home page so it doesn't look like we are separating the two genders...

[scuzzy]

wow, I have been in this program for over a year and never saw that page! Maybe I just wasn't looking...

I think it would be a good idea to have one or two women picks on the home page so it doesn't look like we are separating the two genders...

The women.html page just got done a month or two back. It was blank before.

I like the idea of getting across the idea that AS is for the women too. It's not just a guy thing.

Let's get some pics of yall.

How about a pic of you and your hubby together at an Appleseed? Even better with the whole family? What do y'all think? It would make AS look family oriented. Something for Mom, Dad, Jr., and even Grandma and Grandpa.

Our course higher higher has to approve changes but it is something on our plate. A revamp of the web page that is. It's something I was supposed to be working on two or three weeks back but then some forum upgrades and problems, etc, put that on the back burner.

So let's get them pics. I can get some put on the women.html and will ask to get approval to add something to the main page.

[Trisha]

Here is a picture that I really like:

[Whisker]

+1 on the photos of women on the homepage.  Sounds like Scuzzy has got it covered.  Try and make it early on the slide show so people actually see it!

[Patriot Gal]

I know I personally don't take instruction from my husband easily--there's just too much familiarity, and I get my stubborn on.

I concur with that sentiment.   

What a busy thread this has been today!!  Hot topic for sure and important.

Another thought for a women's AS is to have some of the history include more of what the women were doing ie:  pg. 170 Paul Revere's Ride: (I have vastly shortened and paraphrased some)

[When the men of Pepperell marched away, the women came together and held their own town meeting...elected Prudence Cummings Wright as their leader, she in turn elected a lieutenant Mrs. Job Shattuck, they all dressed themselves in their husband's clothes and, calling themselves Mrs. David Wright's Guard, set about protecting their town even to the point of arresting a Tory named Cap't Leonard Whiting.... ]

Pretty impressive these women being "clear enough about what should be done".  That sounds awfully close to they "know what they're about"!!!! 

Keep your eye on the front sight!
Patriot Gal

[Mogget]

I should also note that Minnesota was represented at the Wayland, IA Appleseed last summer.  So it is clear that the Mid-west is both willing and able to support these ventures.

Speaking now for myself, let me say that I don't have any regrets about supporting an All-Women Appleseed.  If, for example, a Feminists/Women's Studies group, or any other group, wished to participate under those conditions I'd be happy to support it.  (Work permitting, of course.)

I have to say, however, that I am less certain that what stands between the present situation and fuller participation by women is strictly a matter of gender.  For example, do you think that a woman with better marksmanship skills than her significant male other would decline to participate because "there are so many men around?"  I don't. 

So let's be candid: some women who perceive themselves as less able to compete successfully (fear of failure) hesitate to sign up because of past experience with participation in mixed gender events:  their significant other will become impatient or embarrassed, more experienced shooters (usually male) on the line will show impatience or condescension, or instructors will show impatience or disdain, etc.  And as Whisker has obliquely alluded to, many, many people are not aware of how their unconscious gender background plays out to those who are watching them closely.  Thinking along these lines, then, I raise the following points:

1) How do we best support new shooters?  Right now, they're on the line with everybody else, still figuring out how to get that dang Ruger bolt release open or closed while they're expected to do everything else.  Do we have a bit of time during, for example, registration to show new shooters how to do some of that in an ammo-free environment?  Can we "encourage" new shooters to arrive a bit early and then prepare ourselves to respond to their initiative with some hands-on (ammo-less) familiarization?  I'm not a green hat, so I'm in the listening mode on this one...

2)  Repetition is the mother of learning.  Have you noticed that people are listening a lot more intently to your instruction on some point AFTER they've tried to do it themselves?  It's because they're now actively seeking information about the details they've missed rather than passively listening. Folks who are new need the hear/do cycle about four times because they can't "take it all in" the first time.  So figure, right from the start, that with new shooters we will need to get down on the dirt with them and repeat the group instruction at least two or three times.   Happily.

3)  Have we thought carefully about the first three sentences we use for each block of instruction?  These are really the only sentences that we can be reasonably sure everyone will pay attention to, so they need to be polished if we want folks to listen to the rest of what we have to say.  They should be clear, short, and spot-on, and they need to frame (structure) the rest of what we have to say.  In essence, those opening sentences are a road map for the rest of the instructional block, and we all know what we think of maps that are wrong or unclear when we're driving somewhere for the first time.

4) What about an All-Newbie Appleseed?  That will lessen the strain on the instructor corps since an all-female instructor cadre isn't needed.  (I'm sure someone has already thought this up and done it, but I just haven't read about it yet.)

5) Do we know who, in each instructor cadre, is particularly good with new shooters?  Who has the bright, cheery, upbeat, supportive attitude?  Who can think of new ways to say the same instructional points?  Who can find something good to say in every situation?  Are they placed on the line where they can have a significant impact? So far, my experience is that the best selling strategy we have is word of mouth, so if we want more women then we should make sure those we do teach have the best possible experience.  Intimidation is not a good pedagogy, although men tend to rise above it more easily than women.

6) Do we watch carefully and intervene quickly at the onset of frustration?  Like other negative emotions, frustration festers...in men we see cussing and thrown equipment, while women tear up.  We're all pretty clear about how to handle the incipient violence, but how comfortable are we when we respond to a crying shooter?   What's our "battle drill" for tears?  Mine is that the first person on the scene offers a tissue and a time-out.  Then someone else comes by a minute or so later, after they've had the chance to recover a bit of personal dignity, and begins the real triage with relaxing patter and then some kind questions.  I'm open to better ideas, though.

7)  Do we take advantage of opportunities to separate the line by ability?  I know this takes a larger, and more experienced, flexible cadre, but my experience is that it is well-worth the additional complexity.   We all know intuitively that learning is an intensely personal and private affair, so smaller groups have a better chance of catering to individual needs. (This runs counter, I know, to the Appleseed dream of hearing the crack of one hundred and fifty center-fire rifles firing together but it may be where we are now.)

Do we openly suggest that taking a break is not only allowed, but a very good idea at times?  How many rounds do you shoot when you're working privately before you take a break?  I tend to stop and rest/think at least every ten-twenty rounds or so!  So is throwing one's self down on the line and firing every possible bullet for two days something that "real men" do, so everybody should do it?

9) It might be that women are more open to one day of instruction, rather than two.  In particular, women with small children have many issues competing for their time.  One day, in which we promise an enjoyable experience that will show folks the basics so that they leave in a position to fruitfully practice on their own time, may be more attractive than two days accompanied by a higher promise. (Not suggesting a change to Appleseed, just that we ought to expect and encourage women to attend for whatever time they can spare.)

A final point we might consider thinking through is this:  Many folks forget, or never really knew, that women who are older than forty or so come out an era that did NOT reward women, and often punished them, for too much success in "male" areas such as athleticism or intellectual pursuits.  As a result, some may never have really learned the physical [finger/hand/arm/back] strength, coordination, and mental and physical stamina that it takes to succeed.  Many are very much out of shape, and some have been "beaten down" over the years by husbands and children who told them in a myriad of ways that they were stupid or useless, so they've come to believe it. 

We tell folks that the Rifleman patch is very much a matter of the heart, rather than the trigger finger.  And that is doubly, even triply true for women.  How we support folks who are finding and learning their own hearts is, I think, the key.

[vic303]

Wow Mogget, very well said!  You summed up a lot of important info & ideas clearly, and have stretched my mind anyway on the concept, and I'm not even an instructor!  I'd like for your post to be shared with all the instructor cadre if you are willing.    Perhaps there is a thread where you could crosspost it for the instructors to read?

[MeanStreaker]

You make a good point MS, I have heard from many people that it is hard to get their spouses to an AS, (I guess I'm not one of them...), my question to you is, you've had your wife help with getting admin and food to the range, did she like doing that? Is that something she would be willing to do again?

She does it at our home range events so she can come spend some time with me.  It's nice to see each other but of course I'm busy SB'ing and what I hear over and over again is, "I don't feel like I'm a part of that part of your life."

She'll be attending her second Appleseed event this weekend as a shooter, so I got that going for me..... which is nice.   But she doesn't want to be on the line as a shooter every month and she's made it clear she doesn't want to Instruct...................... but she wants to be "a part of that part of my life".

So I think we have two separate discussions that can take place.  The first is how to get more women shooters out to their first event.  The second is how to keep women that believe in the program active (and maybe spending time with their spouses that are gone 20 weekends a year) but don't want to instruct or shoot every month.  

Maybe the second category is just unique to my situation and doesn't deserve everyone's effort to try and fix.  I just think that with hundreds of Instructors here, that means we could potentially have hundreds of spouses involved during the weekend in some fashion other than shooting/Instructing.  Fixing that would be good for those spouses to be a part of the weekend doing good works... and good for the Instructors who would hear a little less complaining about all the time spent apart and make it easier to Appleseed.

[Trisha]

I should also note that Minnesota was represented at the Wayland, IA Appleseed last summer.  So it is clear that the Mid-west is both willing and able to support these ventures.

Whoops sorry about that Mogget, I guess I was considering you a Wisconsinite now...

Every point you have made makes perfect sense. As an instructor, I have come across some of these issues but I never felt I knew how to handle them properly. These are things we need to consider especially as instructors and maybe we can come up with some possible solutions for the points you have brought up.

[Cora_Munro]

Hey all!

I'm a new IIT, and still working on scoring rifle(wo)man.  I have a lot of ideas, but I want to catch up on what y'all have been writing first...just thought I'd weigh in.  I agree, more women need to be involved with AS. Other than Riflewoman, I believe I'll be the only female instructor in CO when I'm done with my training! Nice thought, but scary as well. I've been to two AS shoots and will be headed to another one in a few weeks, making it a point to bring at least one more woman with me each time (I brought 4 last time, 2 this coming shoot).

Anyway, I look forward to being more engaged in this conversation

Have a fantastic day!

-M-

[Old Glory!]

Cora,
You have an excellent mentor in RW.  Appleseed guru-ess!  Welcome to Appleseed!  We can use your help.
Old Glory in WI

Hey all!

I'm a new IIT, and still working on scoring rifle(wo)man.  I have a lot of ideas, but I want to catch up on what y'all have been writing first...just thought I'd weigh in.  I agree, more women need to be involved with AS. Other than Riflewoman, I believe I'll be the only female instructor in CO when I'm done with my training! Nice thought, but scary as well. I've been to two AS shoots and will be headed to another one in a few weeks, making it a point to bring at least one more woman with me each time (I brought 4 last time, 2 this coming shoot).

Anyway, I look forward to being more engaged in this conversation

Have a fantastic day!

-M-

[AFTERMATH]

I should also note that Minnesota was represented at the Wayland, IA Appleseed last summer.  So it is clear that the Mid-west is both willing and able to support these ventures.

Whoops sorry about that Mogget, I guess I was considering you a Wisconsinite now...

Every point you have made makes perfect sense. As an instructor, I have come across some of these issues but I never felt I knew how to handle them properly. These are things we need to consider especially as instructors and maybe we can come up with some possible solutions for the points you have brought up.

I don't mean to interupt this very educational thread....  But Minnesota is keeping Mogget!
Wisconsan already has female Instructors!

[Trisha]

Another thought for a women's AS is to have some of the history include more of what the women were doing ie:  pg. 170 Paul Revere's Ride: (I have vastly shortened and paraphrased some)

You, know I agree with you on this statement too. Old Glory and I have done a little bit of women's history, but it doesn't happen at every shoot. It would also be good to have history about young children and what they did. I don't know if it would be possible to add this in or not, but maybe....