Rifle cleaning during an event

[Ironbar]

Although I was not able to complete the weekend in Stevenson, WA, a friend of mine who was there for the whole weekend brought up an excellent point- what do we do about rifle cleaning?

During the event, his 10/22 began to really track off on the shots, and he started having FTE and FTF issues. I have had the exact same thing happen to me after a few hours of shooting rimfire. .22 ammo is notoriously dirty, and after a time it will practically crust up the inside of my receiver.

Are we allowed during the event to remove our rifles from the line to do a little maintenance on them?

[SPQR]

You can do it during a string on the line with no problems and without breaking the safety rules.  I saw rimshot do it with a Garand during the prone stage.

[Roland]

Reformed Redneck would be the one to talk to on this, as he is the regional coordinator. I know at a recent
Coeur d Alene, ID shoot we talked about it at the AAR, and made a decision, but I can't be 100% sure what it was.

Hopefully RR will remember, but I believe we decided it would be safer to have an instructor go with the shooter off
the line then to try to clean on the line.

Again, hopefully someone who was there that remembers more will either correct me or back me up.

Roland

[mj52]

So, I can assist someone that isn't strong enough to pull a bore snake through a barrel while those to our left and right are firing?

FTF, FTEs seem to be a pattern and in my very limited experience seems to build as each COF is run. So no one, especially the Instructors are really surprised. Nods, winks, eye brows raised, an occassional point. We can see it coming. Frustration followed by mistakes.

Make it safe, get it off the line and if there is an Instructor available to oversee/assist, decide the safest course of action and move forward.

[yellowhousejake]

I would think the real question is why are so many rifles failing to shoot 400 rounds without cleaning. Solve that issue and the safe cleaning question goes away. We routinely see rifles run all weekend in all kids of conditions from 90 degree low/high humidity to below freezing and horizontal sleet.

My own loaners will make it through several Appleseeds with a general cleaning every two/three events and a tear down only once or twice a year.

YHJ

[George Hacker]

Ironbar,

FTFs and FTEs aren't always a cleaning issue.  They can be, but sometimes it is a bad rifle/ammo combination.  My 10/22s eat Remington Golden Tip ammo like candy, but one of my rifles gags on Federal ammo.  When I switched ammo, the FTEs went away.

Other times these issues are caused by non-standard "upgrades."  Adjustable Tapco stocks on 10/22s are awesome for making the rifle fit different folks, it is painful to watch a shooter struggle to get their magazine out during an AQT because with some mags they have to pull the bolt back to drop the magazine.  So sometimes oversized bolt handles can cause such issues (I'm not saying this is the case with your friend's rifle).

- ShadowMan

[mj52]

I've only been to 2 events. Hey Scuzzy.

With only 1 problem rifle over those 2 weekends it wasn't an issue for Appleseed, but for the shooter it was a big deal. Also, it did effect the folks on either side of the problem child.

Finish the string, safety it up, get them off the line, decide whats best and move on.

[scuzzy]

I've only been to 2 events. Hey Scuzzy.

Noted. I checked the scheduling spreadsheet and I do see the two events listed. So bug in my software.

[Sly223]

I see this all the time down here,
I have concluded that the individual has attempted to zero with x# of rounds at his/her local range.
Probably highly corrosive,along with all the moisture in the air,and not wanting to foul the "zero",they case it.
Now only a few rounds went down range,but the damage is done.
If four or more rifles start to experience malfunctions, At lunch or After hours we will all clean rifles together,
It never fails to be a great learning experience for All!

[2 clicks low]

Most cleaning issues can be settled with a rod and brush during prep. I use a rod instead of a bore snake because it lets me keep the muzzle in a safe direction, up. Also it is already on the line for squib checks.
Most cleaning issues are due to "match chambers" combined with dirty ammo. In 25 shoots only once had to remove a rifle for a quick cleaning teardown due to gallons of oil and very fine sand on the line. Took it to "the armory",  a place behind the line pointing at a side berm and had an IIT (me) attend.

I would not let an unattended shooter handle a rifle behind the line for any reason.

2cl

[TaosGlock]

Most cleaning issues can be settled with a rod and brush during prep. I use a rod instead of a bore snake because it lets me keep the muzzle in a safe direction, up. Also it is already on the line for squib checks.
Most cleaning issues are due to "match chambers" combined with dirty ammo. In 25 shoots only once had to remove a rifle for a quick cleaning teardown due to gallons of oil and very fine sand on the line. Took it to "the armory",  a place behind the line pointing at a side berm and had an IIT (me) attend.

I would not let an unattended shooter handle a rifle behind the line for any reason.

2cl

I agree with those points.
I will also add that if on the line, any rifle problems that come up should have an instructor there to assist. Whether prep or during a COF.
Rifles can/should be pulled off the line if deemed necessary with an instructor close by.
It is just too easy for shooters, especially newbies, to get caught up in the moment and violate safety protocols.

We should encourage our shooters to bring cleaned rifles, but like many other suggestions we offer on the what to bring and how to prepare, these often get passed by.

[techres]

Tore down a bolt carrier group 3 times on an AR to find the problem with the gas system (stakes popped free on brand new Colt).

Did it all in stage 4 of the AQT and had time left to shoot after we tightened the nuts.  5 Minutes is a long, long time and a rifle can be field cleaned in a pretty short time.

Only once had to pull a rifle off the line completely and that was due to a 44 mag round jammed into the tube.  It was #9 in the 8 round tube and jammed in there right good... 

[technoronin]

After spending lots of time teaching people the correct ways to shoot, don't you think it might be a good idea to also teach them how to care for their rifles?  I know the Ruger 10/22 manual doesn't really go into much detail, so I've just been winging it.  For one of my other rifles I found information online that may or may not be completely accurate and did the best I could.

Or, to put a different spin on it, black powder is really corrosive, so those folks in 1775 had to take very good care of their firearms if they wanted them to last.  Maybe teaching teching folks today how to clean their rifles correctly would be a useful addition to the curriculum.

[ItsanSKS]

Tecnoronin-

What you are describing is something that I've done (once) at an Appleseed event, and it went really well.

We had about 15 people on the line, and I'll be darned if every one of them weren't experiencing persistent rifle malfunctions as we moved on toward Sunday afternoon.  Instead of trying to push through the curriculum, we held a rifle cleaning party, right there on the firing line.   Students were given 1/2 hour to thoroughly clean their rifles, and instructors were standing by to assist as necessary. 

After the cleaning party, the majority of our students were able to finish the weekend without any further malfunctions.  Those that did experience problems were quickly given alternative ammunition, or if the rifle was *really* problematic, we'd offer to swap out the rifle for a loaner. 

All in all, it was a worthy exercise.  Having a 'rifle cleaning party' on the firing line continues to be a possibility at any Appleseed I am Shoot Bossing.

[Reformed Redneck]

As with many issues there are potentially several different ways to deal with malfunction/cleaning problems.

I prefer to pull the rifle and shooter off the line and get them to a safe location to clean or troubleshoot the problem. Unless I am short handed in terms of instructors, I send an instructor with them. Simply an additional safety precaution.

Attempting to do a real clean job on the firing line seems fraught with additional risks that can be simply avoided by moving the operation to a safe location off line. Unless, of course, everyone is doing it.

Having a cleaning clinic has it's merits, but I've personally never had a shoot where the problems became so prevalent as to warrant doing so. We always tell the shooters to clean their gear on Saturday night in order to enhance their Sunday activities. Some do. Some don't. Some have problems. Some don't.

I think we all try to be as helpful as possible concerning the problems shooters encounter with their gear. At the same time, I don't want to get wrapped up in the minutia of some of the problems that some gear presents. Substituting a loaner, if it's available, may be a better course of action in some circumstances. Not every instructor has broad knowledge of the variety of rifles we see on the line. I leave gunsmithing issues to after hours or refer them to a local gunsmith.

[Nero]

Since our regular range (Castro Valley) has a side berm, we set up a 'safety table' against it and behind the main equipment line.  Rifles may be on that table with the following conditions:  Muzzle into the berm, no ammo of any type present on the table, and an instructor present if a student is handling a rifle.  (We stole this setup from the 3-gun matches that shoot on the same range.)  Problems that we can't clear without interrupting the flow of the shoot go over there, assuming we have an instructor available.  In addition to cleaning out seriously gunky actions, we'll tackle fairly simple 10/22 or AR problems, again assuming the right instructor is available and it won't hold up the shoot.  Otherwise, swap to a loaner.

We also use the 'safety table' as the spot to pass out loaners (10/22s), and quickly work the students through the manual of arms on the rifle before sending them to the line, which reduces interruptions to the initial clearing and setup.