Project Appleseed

Finally broke time loose to try my new HS gauges.  Very surprising results.

First batch--mixed .30-06, fired from multiple Garands, LC/HXP/KA/commercial.  All were resized on a Lee full length die, adjusted per manufacturer's instructions and all done in one session.

  About 2/3 checked fine.  The other was mostly "iffy" (ie. just BARELY too long, 3 thou or so.), though there was about 2-3% that was very much too long--like about 1/32" (!)

Then checked mixed 7.62 and .308 brass, same die criteria.

   NONE of these cases would fit all the way in the gauge, though they seemed to be hanging up due to insufficient resizing of the case head rather than HS issues.

Next was 5.56 and .223 brass, mixed, same die criteria. 

   About 65% gauged OK.  The rest was about 20% "iffy" and 15% WAY too long (64th to a 32nd or so).

The really interesting part of this is that I have been reloading on this equipment for a while, and have had practically no problems.  Occasionally I will have a round where I need to bump the bolt closed, but even that is rare.  OTOH, I am re-shooting my on brass, so maybe the excessively long cases above were due to the fact that this was range pick up brass.

The fact that I can run brass through a properly adjusted die and get such a wide variation in cartridge HS is really bothersome.  I want to be able to make reloads that I know will function in any rifle in the caliber, not just mine.  Looks like a set of small base dies and a lot of cartridge gauging is in my future...

Might be something ya'll want to consider for your efforts.  Would be a shame to crank out a few thousand reloads just to find they only work in a small set of rifles.  Cartridge gauges are about $16, may save some trouble.

SoM

GOOD FOR YOU!  I'm glad you found this out the easy way instead of...

http://www.fulton-armory.com/Kaboom.htm

Ever measure the empties before you resize them (set of calipers)?  Ever measure brand new cases before you shoot them?  Curiousity my seem wasted to some, but you never know what you'll learn when you do something many folks don't bother to do.

I have always deprimed and resized on a single stage press and then checked the cases on a case guage before reloading them. If they won't pass the case guage I throw them out rather than reload them and find that they jam in a competition. It saves a lot of components.

Doug in Virginia
VAshooter

SoM,  If you don't already have one, getcha one of these to save the components on the ones that are out of spec:

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=215517&t=11082005

Yep - typical result sorry to say.

That's why they make those gauges. 

What you REALLY want to do is used sorted brass (by manufacturer) and reset/check the die each time you change manufacturers.  Because of differences in the the thickness and hardness of the brass, the resulting cases will be different - just as you saw.  Just for grins, sort what you resized by headstamp and see if they measure closer to each other. 

I use range pick up all the time (where people are shooting new brass, not reloads) but I sort it before I load it.  To make it easy, I clean it good in the tumbler, then get the kids involved in sorting the clean stuff.  The 5 yr old is darn good a sorting headstamps.  Little fingers and his eyes are fantastic

You might have posted this somewhere else, but do you have the "chamber" type (i.e. a reamer used to cut a chamber out of a cylinder of steel) or do you have the Hornady/Stoney Point contraption? 

I see that your goal is "universal" ammo so the cylinder type is probably what you want.

There is a bit of a discussion to be had about the difference.  The cylinder type is cut (supposedly) to SAMMI specs.  Very likely your chamber, while very probably with-in spec, will not be the same as the one cut in the cylinder.  If you set your die to it, you could still not have the right headspace for your rifle.  Probably not be unsafe, but by setting the proper headspace to your gun you do get better brass life and the many claim easy accuracy improvements.

There are a couple of ways to make this measurement.  One is from RCBS which measures the chamber directly:
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=477756&t=11082005

or

The other is from Hornady (bought the Stoney Point product) look at the bottom of the page.  This measures a case fired in the rifle in quesiton:
http://www.hornady.com/story.php?s=485

  Does your press have any spring ?
  Does your linkage have any spring?
  Do you lub the case necks inside?
I have found that the expander ball will stretch the necks sometimes and also the datum point on the shoulder.
The precision mic from RCBS is great for measuring fired cases from each rifle and will prolong case life if you use it for resizing the cases for each rifle.
If you want the ammo to fit any rifle, it is not of much use and you can expect much shorter case life.

I'm just a lucky guy (most of the time).  When I started reloading I didn't have clue there was a difference in chambers from one rifle to another.  My 30.06 reloads worked in my bolt action rifles (Springfields and Enfields) and my father in laws Rem. 742.  My .223 reloads worked in my M700 VS or my mini 14.  I only had the one .308 and the maker of brass never mattered to me.  It was resized, trimmed, neck turned and weighed and then sorted by weight.

The only brass failures I've ever had were with factory ammo (holes blown through the case walls on a Rem. 44 mag in the Super Blackhawk and a Hornady 30.06 in the 742 - I think).

Haven't started reloading the second time around yet (cleaning brass, resizind and trimming quite a bit of it but that's as far as I've gotten so far).

I do remember trying the rifle reloads in the M700 (I was experimenting with bullet seating depths) and the M1A (180 grn boat tails - seating depths again).

I'd say I had a lot of experience with reloading and shooting them 22 years ago but basically none since.  During that time everything I reloaded worked (some of it wasn't as accurate as I wanted, but I'm pretty picky) in anything I shot it in.

After reading all the stuff from other people these days I'd be a lot more careful than I was back then. 

It's always a good idea to keep yourself a notebook.  Record the vital info on your reloads.  What you did to make them.  Any "measurement" type info you can get off them.  Which rifles they worked in/didn't work in and why (once you figure it out). 

To me (besides being cheaper) the real reason for reloading is to allow you to tailor a specific load to a specific rifle.  I've seen some amazing things done with reloads that were worked up (or in one case just lucky) for a single rifle.  I once saw a M70 feather weight in 30.06 that was so disappointing with every factory load available at the time (Randy tried 150's, 165, and 180's) from Remington, Federal and Winchester) that he was about to take it back and trade it off.  I had some left over boxes of 180 Sierra FB spitzers loaded with what my Lyman book labeled "the most accurate load they got while working up their data" and that rifle would shoot dime sized groups at 100 yds.  That particular load just "fit" that rifle.  Reload for whatever reason you feel but realize the potential is there far and above just "cheaper plinking ammo".

I have been prepping cases all week. 308/762 Nato exclusively.

I am doing a run of the indian 1970's vintage M80 brass (I bought a pile of that stuff in the bandos with strippers), and that is some HARD brass. All fired through the same rifle.

I used to laugh and point at guys who mined brass at the range. No more- I have become one of them. I mine brass at the range every chance I get. I just tumble it once lightly to get the big chunks off and salt it away in ziplocks. More on that Later.

The interesting brass is the 400 rounds of Fed Match brass I got given by our local precision rifle maker. It is VERY soft by comparison.
He uses a 'minimum' chamber, with zero to one and a half head space. Now that is some nice stuff. very little case expansion or neck growth. I am still doing it 'by the numbers'. By comparison,  I have a fair amount of Fed Match that I got from range pick ups as well (that was a happy day when that guy walked away from all that Fed gold medal brass- I made up the range fee and them some!). That stuff was shot through a SAMMI spec chamber and it's as stretched out as (insert coarse reference of your choice here) and needs lots of attention. This is to say that I think our fingers get educated with the case guage as with anything. Hard to articulate but I am sure you get my drift.

I am set up with a turret press with the resizer die and the power trimmer.

I have had the darn case guage in my hand confirming and reconfirming case dimensions so much I have a crink in my thumb. And this before I have assembled a single round.

I will post further as the project progresses.

FWIW, I had some problems with Lee dies, so I switched to the RCBS competition dies.
Fewer out of spec cases.

I noticed the same thing with the Indian brass I've got.  The primer condition after firing made it appear they were pretty "warm" and man did they stress the corner of the reloading bench vs. the other .308 brass I was resizing.

OK, lessee...I did check for a correlation between longer/shorter cases and headstamp.  None noted (surprised me, maybe I don't have a large enough sample size yet).  I DID note much different pressure needed when resizing, to be expected with mixed brass from different rifles.

Press is pretty worn, there is some looseness in the ram to frame fit.  Linkage has the typical Lee "spongy" feel due to the flexing of the round stock handle.  Inside case neck lubing, I am not so good on...I tend to lube the first couple, then forget for half a dozen or so .

Right now I am thinking RCBS small base dies and a new single stage press (probably the new Lee "classic cast" press).  Any input?

Thanks all.

SoM

I might be wrong but I'd only expect a difference in fired (but not yet resized) case length for brass fired in different rifles.  This would probably result in slightely longer resized brass as well as that "stretched" brass has to go somewhere when it gets squeezed down by the die. 

I recently trimmed several hundred 30.06 cases that were mixed military and civilian brass.  Some of the Winchester brass was the longest.  Some of the Greek brass was longer than others but I didn't check to see what the headstamp was on it as it was barely "longer" than the rest of it.  Have not trimmed any of the .308 or the .223 yet.

Most folks who use them say the small base dies will reduce the number of reloads you'll get from your brass (because they reduce the outside dimensions so much more than standard dies they work harden the brass faster resulting in splits/cracks sooner).

  SOM,don't give up on your press or dies too quickly. Don't get S.B. Dies until you are sure your's won't work.
  Using your Lee dies, push down hard on your handle and hold pressure on it while you screw the die down until it comes against the shellholder. Then let up the pressure and screw the die down another 1/4-1/2 turn and try that. It may suprise you.
I had an old Fed. Ord. M14A that would swallow a .308 Field Gauge and the fired brass was stretched much more than any of my M1A's. By using the above method, I could size brass so it would fit any of the 4 M1A's.

I have owned 2 Lee &  1 RCBS presses. Go with the RCBS, you will not regret it. The RCBS is better press hands down.

Quote from: Son of Martha on September 15, 2007, 10:21:35 PM

Right now I am thinking RCBS small base dies and a new single stage press (probably the new Lee "classic cast" press).  Any input?

RCBS Small Base Dies are good. I have them myself. Love them.

But, don't buy the Lee. Find yourself a good used RCBS Rockchucker press. You won't regret it.

As to a Lee press, think of it as if you were looking for an M14 clone. I'm not recommending using any given brand equipment to load for certain rifles, just using applied logic and relativity to convince you of the merits of buying better quality equipment.

Going to buy a Norinco (or other Chinese), a Springfield or an LRB?

If you answered Norinco, then buy Lee stuff.

Springfield, get RCBS.

LRB, (you like the caviar of equipment,) then buy Redding.

And, think about this. If Ornell is telling you RCBS and I'm telling you RCBS (and I am considered a "professional reloader", though part time), then you might want to buy RCBS. My father uses a LOT of RCBS equipment, and he's a Type 06 FFL (ammo manufacturer).

I'm a Dillon kinda guy for most of my loading, but for low volume/load development a rockchucker is THE best.

If you don't want to spend Dillon bucks, but want a little more speed, you might try a turret press.  Several manufacturers put them out...

OK, had time to do a little more looking.

I took some of the cases that gauged poorly and re-resized them.  Noticed that I could not "close" the handle sweep with these cases.  The shell holder should contact the mouth of the die, but could not put enough pressure on to get it there.  By this I mean I was already putting so much pressure on that I was afraid I was going to break the press...

So, looks like part of the problem is not being able to put enough moxie on it to bump the shoulder back that extra thou or two.  Ok, fixee that by getting stronger press.  Question:  Should it TAKE such an amount of pressure to get the shoulder set back?

Another thing I noted that was contrary to my expectation--Took one of the cases that failed gauging, and I mean badly failed--the entire rim was protruding above the top step of the gauge.  Fed it into the chamber of an M1A, let the bolt fly just enough to snap the extractor over the rim, and it closed and locked fully.  Opened quite easily.  No "chamber resizing" marks on the case.  Hmmm...

Ya know, I was a lot happier about things before getting the gauges...

SoM

Hey bud, they are all different, repeat after me, "they are all different".

Evidently your chamber is a little longer than the headspace gauge.  One way to actually measure your chamber might be to "make" a series of "gauges" by resizing without pushing the should back (neck size??) one case and then a turn of the die at a time resize a few more and then make measurement of each and then try them in your rifle to see which ones chamber and which ones don't.  Of course the "scientific" method would be to get some of the low melting point metal (seems like it was called "cerrosafe"??) plug your barrel at the end of the chamber and pour some of that stuff in your chamber and let it set up.  Punch it back out of there and measure it to see what your chamber really looks like.  I've never used it, just read about it years ago - I'll bet Ken Grant could not only tell you where to get it but how to use it and measure it.

As far as your die/shell holder/press goes - for what it's worth years ago I put a Pacific 30.06 resizing die on a grinder to remove a small portion of the base so I could get it to adjust close enough to the shell holder to get the "sizing" effect I wanted.  You may not want to do that but even with a stronger RCBS press if you've bottomed out the shell holder against the die you can't shove the case any farther up in the die.

Of course the other side of this is that if the present set up gives you brass that works in your rifles making the brass even shorter will further reduce it's reloading life.

Roger that on the brass life.  My main concern is to make reloads that will work in ANY rifle in the caliber.  I figure I will only get 2-3 loads outta most of them anyway before they get left on the 100 yard berm at Ramseur  .  I do mark the case heads for each reload so I can tell fer sure how many times this 'uns been through the wringer.

Best I can tell so far, the cases that I can get all the way into the die (touch shellholder) gauge OK except .223...almost none of them gauge correctly--like 4 out of 150 (!)   .30-06 almost ALL gauge good, and .308 is more bad than good.  Interestingly enough, I have some I have labeled "ambiguous" which ALMOST gauge OK, except that one side of the case head barely touches a straightedge across the top of the gauge.  Can just barely see a sliver of light on that side of the gauge....Grr....where's the flippin' hammer?

I know that I could order up a stronger press and some small base dies and fix this with almost no time and considerably more money, but since I have young'uns who think they have to eat EVERY day I will fool around a little and see if I can WECSOG(R) this.  I have an extra .223 die, been tempted to grind a slice off it and see what happens...

Hmph.  Between the casting, bullet sizing, case trimming, resizing and crimping operations that go on in there I have taken to calling the workbench "the foundry".

I miss being able to buy it at 18 cents a round...

SoM

Well, the case gages use shorter dimensions than the chambers.

I wouldn't hesitate to take a little off one of the .223 sizers. You already have it, so why not? If it doesn't work, it isn't like you've got to buy a new die right off.

 Cerrosafe is not a good way to check headspace as headspace takes into account the bolt face as well.
It does provide a goodway to look inside your chamber and to look at the lead before the rifling. It shrinks rather fast as it cools and any measuring has to be done fast.

SOM, it is not unsual for a firedcase head to not be square  when fired in a m14/M1A.
Sometimes also with an M1 but the M14/M1A is the worse about trying to extract a case while it still has pressure,very hot and yanking on it and twisting it as well.

A friend of mine who builds Match Rifles(M1's and M1A's)  and was an armorer at AMU at Ft. Benning has a case trimmer that he uses to square the bases of fired brass.

Another thing to think about is the fact that your case guage is .308 Win. and not 7.62 as well as your dies.
Also the gauge for .223 is not for a 5.56 although they are usuable.

The best gauge to buy is a RCBS Precision Mic and use it to measure fired brass and also for setting your sizing die. It really works well to keep you from oversizing it.
Another way to use it is to measure an un-fired rd. and then re-measure after you fire it. It will tell you how much the brass stretched in headspace.
 You can also use it for seating bullets measuring the ogive.

I have a Precision Mic for .308 that you can borrow if you like,just let me know. I don't have one for .223 as I have not loaded it before but due to the price of ammo, I may start and a Precision Mic will be one of my first tools to buy.

P.S. --- When resizing your brass using your dies, try turning the brass 1/2 turn and run it back into the die again and then check it with a case guage.

SoM, try Imperial Sizing Die Wax and you may find that your press works better than you thought.  You can find it here.

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=519525&t=11082005

ken grant,

You are correct, Sir, but, I like properly resizing for .308 Win for use in a 7.62 chamber as I know my cases will work as verified by my case gauge (the .308 is slightly smaller) and my experience with reloads in this rifle (M1A).  For the four to five times maximum that I feel that I can safely resize a case I am not concerned with the small amount these cases will be overworked as I am looking for function, accuracy and safety in my loads, not extra longevity in my brass.  I won't push my luck more than five times with this rifle.

For a bolt gun it's a different matter.  I have brass for my bolt guns that after inspection have been resized ten or more times.  I have .45 ACP brass that has been loaded so many times you can't even read the headstamp, but this is a low pressure pistol round, not a 7.62 NATO round from a gas gun a few inches from your face. 

 wc, I also agree with what you are saying, but if you have a M14 clone with a USGI barrel with a 7.62 chamber and you resize your cases to .308 specs, sometimes you can get head seperations on the first firing.
A normal 7.62 Nato chamber will swallow a .308 Field Gauge with room to spare.
If you resize the brass back to .308 specs,you are badly overworking it.
What I did with my Fed. Ord. M14A (Nato Chamber) was to measure un-fired rds. with the Mic and get an average on them and then fire them and do the same ( every case will not measure the same but will be close)
I then use my measurements for setting my resizing die. I just size about .002 smaller according to the Precision Mic.
While fooling around, fire some rds. with the Gas Valve turned off and measure them.
Then measure some with the gas on and see the difference between them. It might suprize you at the difference in them.

Quote from: ken grant on September 25, 2007, 11:06:27 AM
wc, I also agree with what you are saying, but if you have a M14 clone with a USGI barrel with a 7.62 chamber and you resize your cases to .308 specs, sometimes you can get head seperations on the first firing.
 

This may be true, but with 7.62 surplus or Federal brass (it's close to mil-spec and weighs the same as Lake City) that I resize to .308 and use in a Springfield M1A I have not experienced this problem due to the brass's stronger construction and have been able to sucessfully get four to five reloads.  I could probably push it more, but I won't press my luck. 

I don't use commercial brass (other than Federal) for this rifle because I don't trust it for this application, although I use several commercial brands for my bolt, lever, and pump-action guns.

Guys, I keep saying they're all different.  It's vital to understand/measure your own rifle, brass, reloaded ammo and understand how they all work together and why.  My M1A is different than others.  I've used Remington and Winchester brass as well as GI surplus in mine during the years I reloaded.  I also used .308 dies and I did not ever full length resize and never had a chambering issue.  I also used the worst primers (according to most folks) as at the time Federal bench rest primers were all I could get.

This is not a suggestion to use anything you want and there won't be any problems.  I'm just trying to say that while you should listen to what folks have learned from their experience you also need to realize that what worked for them may need to be slightly different for your rifle.  Reloading right isn't easy but it's worth the effort of doing right.

Quote from: M1A4ME on September 25, 2007, 12:32:48 PM
Reloading right isn't easy but it's worth the effort of doing right.

Amen, brother.  That's what makes it fun.  Learning what works in your rifles as compared to others.

 Every Springfield I have had or seen  didn't have a 7.62 Nato chamber but there are other clones that do and they have from .006 - .012 more headspace than a .308 chamber.
When you stretch brass that much and resize it down to .308 specs., it doesn't last very long, sometimes not even one firing.

"RCBS Small Base Dies are good. I have them myself. Love them."


I don't use them, but why are small-base dies so popular as they would really resize the cases too small?  

Listen, I understand the 7.62 vs. .308 argument, but full length sizing my surplus (or Federal) brass to .308 dimensions is working well in my rifle (and I haven't measured it, but Springfield says it's a 7.62 NATO chamber [they also say not to reload, but that's another issue]) 

Once again, I'm going for reliability, accuracy, and safety.  Your argument brings up a safety concern regarding brass failure, but (knock on wood) I have not experienced this with .308 dimensions.  I am more concerned with safety in regards to the round actually fitting in the chamber with no resistance to help alleviate slam-fire conditions. 

As M1A4ME is saying, your experience may be different, and I respect that, but it is not mine.

Every NEW Springfield I have had(5) and everyone I have looked at had Headspace Tags on them and they were all not chambered to 7.62 Nato Specs but to .308 Specs.
In fact, somewhere I have several of the Springfield tags, I will try to find them.