Project Appleseed

Hi everybody.
I am new to appleseed shooting and to this forum.
Also I am new to casting lead, and I have some questions regarding the last one:
I have some quantity of lead I salvaged from one of local ranges. I assume lead is oxidized, do I  have to deoxidize it? How can I do it (I am not a chemist). Should I put something in to melting pat? How to use the flux and what to use for flux?
Any thoughts?

After looking at this thread, I still have a few questions. So far I've only reloaded a few FMJ rifle rounds, but do have some pistol reloading background, although none of it has been with cast either.

I see Nickle's powder recomendations, the only rifle powder I have on hand right now is H4895 and prospects for others seem bleak in this market. What bullet wts do you recomend for Garand practice ammo & how do you go about determining a start load? I only have a Lee Manual, but will pick up a Lyman ASAP for more cast bullet data. I've always been told not to load below recomended start loads to avoid problems associated with low pressure (although I've never understood why).  I don't have access to a chrony.

Do you recomend gas checks? How about crimping? Any other pitfalls I should worry about?

Thanks
Guy

Check out this forum.  Looks like a lot of good info and a lot of helpful folks for advice.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/cmps_index.php

I'm about to order some cast lead rifle bullets and start (first for my US Enfield and later for the Garand).

You can use rifle powders (at reduced loads for reduced velocity) or pistol powder.  There seems to be a velocity ceiling (due to a drop off in accuracy even if you don't get leading issues first).  I don't mind shooting what will be similar to a bolt action 30-30 (velocity and power wise) at 25 meter distances.

Hello Group; I would like to report good results, With a load that was recomended by Fellow Appleseeders and cast bullet shooters. Thanks Fellows. a powder charge of 36 grains of H4831 and Lyman 170 gr Cast gaschecked bullets out of my standard M1A gave clover leaf sized groups! Recoil was down and so was the noise, as compaired to surplus ammo. This seems like it would be a great load for what we are doing. Pappy

Good deal Pappy.
There is a cast load out there for every gun, just a  matter of finding yours   

Sam

Any loads using IMR4350 perchance ? Only ask 'cause I've got a big can of it.

Hello Group; I would like to take this time to say Thanks  to Sam D . for putting the perspective on the cast bullet loads I had been working on. I had asked Sam last fall what bullet he liked, He gave me a logical choice. I asked another respected Appleseeder his choice and he gave me his choice Thanks Nickle. From that basis I made my choice after looking over all the loading data I have.
One of the things that has drawn folks like us to this group is the original thought of helping others enjoy our sport making us all stronger with the knowledge we share with each other. Pappy

One caution about using any cast or lead tipped bullet in a garand or other semi-auto. Clean your chamber thoroughly afterwards and use a chamber brush. As the bullet tip gets shoved up the feed ramp, there is a tendancy to shave a little bit of lead off. This can get carried up into the chamber and it can build up until you start having problems with ejection, chambering, or pressure if it accumulates in the shoulder or neck areas.

Lyman and Lee both have good books on casting and loading lead bullets.

Quote from: Joe on July 31, 2009, 03:47:51 AM
One caution about using any cast or lead tipped bullet in a garand or other semi-auto. Clean your chamber thoroughly afterwards and use a chamber brush. As the bullet tip gets shoved up the feed ramp, there is a tendancy to shave a little bit of lead off. This can get carried up into the chamber and it can build up until you start having problems with ejection, chambering, or pressure if it accumulates in the shoulder or neck areas.

Hello Joe; Thats good advice, during the load development inspections of the round after it was stripped from the mag and chambered consistently showed NO signs of deformation, or shaving. The round when loaded had the bullet seated and gently crimped in the crimping groove. Also the bullet is hard cast alloy a bit harder that Lyman #2.
The problem you mention can be caused from seating the bullet out to far. It can also be caused by not using the correct size neck expander for the size of your bullets, you can not get by with the same expander ball you would use for jacketed if your loading a .309 dia bullet you will deform and shave each bullet during the loading process, not helping the accuracy. Yes Lyman has a great hand book on casting... Pappy 

 

Quote from: KodyJaret on July 30, 2009, 03:38:53 AM
Any loads using IMR4350 perchance ? Only ask 'cause I've got a big can of it.

Kody,
If you check castboolits@gunloads.com there is considerable info on cast bullets with a section on garands. Your 4350 may work well but can damage your rifle unless down loaded. Do not use data compiled for jacketed bullets in bolt action .30'06.
With all this ammo madness going around you might be able to trade that 4350 for some thing else.

Hey Clod,,

I did note the the numbers in these data intended for the M1 and mentioned it to Pap,,,But it seems Pap is making it work, perhaps the reduced charges also reduce 'port pressure', which is the bugaboo here.

As for the 4350,,,it will do the work it has always done; in my bolt -gun.

Thanks for the concern. Two heads, etc.........

Actually, the trouble with using 4350 and cast bullets in an M1 might be that it's TOO FAST, not too slow.

You'll need to reduce the loads some (quite a bit), as 2700 is way too fast for any cast bullets I know of, even straight Linotype.

4831 seems to be OK for this, as when the load is reduced enough to drop the velocity, the port pressure is correct.

So, I'd try the 4350, knowing that it might not be slow enough to give enough port pressure to function the action when using the reduced loads you need for cast bullets.

Now, using either 4831 or 4350 for jacketed bullet loads at anything near normal velocities is a sure way to wreck an operating rod.

I fianally broke down and got some 4831, very promising results with Pappy's data. A little to much "M" die action though. Have to back that off so they chamber.
Took a crazy detour with paper patching for M-1. It did not work for me, had trouble with the paper catching on the chamber and folding back causing poor accuracy.

Hello Group; There are a few things that have come to light shooting these Hard cast bullets. One is that if you use the minimum amount of powder (36 grn of 4831 in a 7.62x51) that it takes to work the action you can end up with a failure to eject. Another issue with using to little powder is failure to feed, the bolt did not come far enough back to pickup the next round. A easy fix in a M1A is to load the rounds forward in the mag. This helps
a failure to feed but will not cure a failure to eject.
The Starting load can very with each rifle I have had much better results with 39 grns of 4831. 
In my opinion FWIW each reloader must test the load in the rifle they plan on using for function under adverse and normal conditions.
Use caution when reloading, we need you on the line. Stay safe and keep them in the black.. Pappy

Up date on .30'06 M-1 cast bullet loads, The 4831 at least in my experience is difficult to get a clean burn in reduced loads. I could get enough pressure for function, but un burned kernals of powder would be in the chamber as another round came in to it. After a few rounds enough unburned powder would build up in the shoulder area to prevent the rifle going into battery.
Tryed inert case filler with the same results.
Thought about but did not try magnum primers.
The project laid undisturbed for months until thumbing through Richard Lee's modern reloading my eye fell upon cast bullet data for RL 22.
I have the second edition and the data is printed on page 154. I will not reccomend load data but for those of you who care to consult my source, I used enough RL22 to give a published pressure of 2500 with 180 grain bullet.
With a very good burn that left no kernals of powder in the barrel or chamber.
The accuracy is still not what I seek, and more work on that is forthcomming.
I reccomend that anyone who is intrested in this, read chapter 10 of Modern Reloading second editon by Richard Lee.

I shoot saeco 315 (gc), rcbs x-die, 21.5 gr. of 2400 and can shoot riflemen scores all day with my m1a.

I have similiar loads for the m1 garand but use a heavier bullet usually with 4831.

I use around 19 grains of 2230 and the RCBS 55 grain in the AR platform.



Been doing this for years and years with no adverse effects.

Definitely check out cast boolit forum if you are interested.

Glad it's working for you, I wonder if my biggest problem is to much rapid fire.
If I just shot two and eight then gave it a break, maybe leading the gas port would be minimized.

I'm with Guilford above on this one. I use 2400 for 30 cal cast bullets. My best one is Lyman 311291U. That was for undersized and has been replaced by 308291. It's a gas checked bullet. I use Hornady crimp-on gas checks and they stay with the bullet. I cast my first bullet in 1947. I use wheel weights. My lube is Tydol water pump grease. No, you can't get it any more.

As to cast bullet casting temperatures, I use a common wooden kitchen match. Just take a used match and dip it into o molten lead for three seconds. When you pull it out the match should be golden brown. I have no idea what that temperature is. It just works. I get no leading with reasonable loads.

In my opinion, salvaged lead from the range should only be used for casting sinkers or duck decoy anchors.

By the way; On my Redcoat target with my M14 this past weekend you could cover my three shots on the 400 yard target with a penny and I got the head shot too.

Dangerous old men.