Project Appleseed

Those of you shooting LTR's wearing Hogue overmolded stocks, how much sanding did you have to do to your mags to get them to drop free?  I have 8 loaner LTR's, five of which are in Hogue stocks.  I have 52 magazines.  It took me the better part of a day to get the sand and rain out of them, and get eight flats set on those springs.  So what am I looking at in sanding them to drop free?  A weekend?  What kind of gap you gentlemen looking for?  A business card? On each side, or all the way round?  Yes, I realize it'll be trial and error, I'm just looking for some insight on what the task looks like in a big picture sense.
Thanks for your time.

I went a different direction with mine. I have two 10/22s in the Hogue Overmolded stocks. One of mine droped mags without a problem straight from the box.  The other didn't so instead of altering the mags, I used a file on the mag well of the stock. It took a about an hour or so of filing a little, putting the action back in the stock and checking, taking it back down and filing again until it worked. Now I don't have to have to worry about having special mags just for this one rifle.

Quote from: CetmeManNH on August 30, 2009, 11:57:57 PM
Those of you shooting LTR's wearing Hogue overmolded stocks, how much sanding did you have to do to your mags to get them to drop free?  I have 8 loaner LTR's, five of which are in Hogue stocks.  I have 52 magazines.  It took me the better part of a day to get the sand and rain out of them, and get eight flats set on those springs.  So what am I looking at in sanding them to drop free?  A weekend?  What kind of gap you gentlemen looking for?  A business card? On each side, or all the way round?  Yes, I realize it'll be trial and error, I'm just looking for some insight on what the task looks like in a big picture sense.
Thanks for your time.

I've never been able to get a clean cut on the rubber below the mag well shell.  Were you sanding that shell?  I tried an exacto knife on the rubber, and was decidedly unimpressed with the results.

I didn't sand or cut anything at all. I just used a 1" file and it took it off... rubber and the fiberglass core. However, it worked more efficiently on the rubber when pushing my cutting stroke from bottom of the stock through the mag well. The file was pretty new so the blades/groves in the file were still sharp.

Quote from: CetmeManNH on August 31, 2009, 12:58:41 AM
I've never been able to get a clean cut on the rubber below the mag well shell.  Were you sanding that shell?  I tried an exacto knife on the rubber, and was decidedly unimpressed with the results.

Okay then.  I guess it's another trip to Home Depot for a new file.
Thanks for your time.

Had my first LTR failure last weekend  I have 5 events in 6 weekends coming up - so need to git it repaired ASAP!

Rear site base screws stripped out from recoil - despite locktite and careful install some several thousand rounds ago.

Considering drilling and tapping to larger screw - hate to use JB Weld.

Any better ideas or good source for screws?

PH

I'm not sure of the current thread, but drilling it out and tapping to the next larger thread size is probably the cheapest way to go. I'd think that you wouldn't want to use the NC threads but the fine thread pitch.

There was a product called "Heli-Coil".  Drill the hole bigger, tap it (special tap in the kit), screw in an insert, re-use original size screws.  Don't know if they go that small though.  If you drill and go bigger, you'll prolly have to drill the scope / tech base bigger for both the screw and the screw head.  Use kerosene when you drill & tap aluminum.

Arrrgggg! Timing is everything   

Good luck.  Let us know how you made out, please.  We're all gonna run into this at some point.

EEL

Edit 8/31/09 1540 hrs CDT    Here ya go!! they have 6-32 and 8-32 listed
http://www.emhart.com/pdf/Heli%20Coil/HC2000%20Rev%204.pdf

Quote from: PHenry on August 31, 2009, 03:34:13 PM
Had my first LTR failure last weekend  I have 5 events in 6 weekends coming up - so need to git it repaired ASAP!

Rear site base screws stripped out from recoil - despite locktite and careful install some several thousand rounds ago.

Considering drilling and tapping to larger screw - hate to use JB Weld.

Any better ideas or good source for screws?

PH

What rifle is that? Rear sight screws on a 22LR stripped out from recoil seems odd to me. I suspect the screws never fit right in the first place. Remember if you go bigger and retap, every time you increase the thread size you loose some thread engagement, especially on a thin 22 receiver like a 10/22.

I would be tempted to redrill and retap new holes and make certain that the tap and screws are Brownells quality and not Harbor Freight quality.

DAve

Brownells sells slightly over-sized screws just for this purpose.

Yes, helicoils would work, but if you are drilling and tapping, why not bump up to the next size anyways?

Has anyone had issue with the Tactical Solutions Extended Mag Releases?  I had two snap off completely at LFOD, and one bent too much at the narrowest point to be usable.  I tried to contact Tac Sol, but a week ago I emailed them, and no reply yet.  So, any history of issues with them?

Those helicoils won't work - just checked one of the screws with a micrometer and thread gauge, and the pitch on the scope base screws is 48 TPI (Threads Per Inch). Looks like it's either a 4-48 or a 3-48.

Well I reckon if you are opening up the holes, you can get to a six or eight size hole. What's the smallest helicoil available?  I forget what sizes we have on the ship.

Doing a search for small sized inserts, I didn't see anything that small.  Nor did I see any that would work in the thickness of aluminum, thread size not taken into consideration at all.  So I reckon you'd have to blow out the holes, and thread them for a six or eight screw, after which you'd have to open up the holes in the tech site.
Interesting incident, something for us all to be watchful of.

Reading the heli-coil spec sheet in the link, on p.10-11...They show a 3-48, a 4-40 and a 4-48.  Now as to the thickness of the receiver    I would put a call into Heli-coil.  But it certainly looks like they have all the proper screw sizes covered.

EEL

The screws being 48 TPI, would be 6-48, which is pretty standard.

Enlarge them to 8-40, and call it a day.

It will work, it's been done on many rifles before. 8-40 even holds better.

Quote from: Nickle on September 02, 2009, 09:44:34 AM
The screws being 48 TPI, would be 6-48, which is pretty standard.

Enlarge them to 8-40, and call it a day.

It will work, it's been done on many rifles before. 8-40 even holds better.

6-48? Might be... thread diameter on a #6 is supposed to be .14 and I miked the screw at .135.

Bear in mind that 8-40 is the NF (National Fine) thread, and the 8-32 (NC - National Coarse) thread is much more common. You may have to do a little hunting to find 8-40 screws and taps. You want to use a #28 drill for the hole.

You can get the appropriate taps and drills from Brownells and maybe even Midway.

Well, look at that.

Quote from: dwarven1 on September 02, 2009, 10:32:39 AM
Well, look at that.

Pretty standard size, along with 6-48. Almost all sight/scope mounting screws will be one or the other.

Thanks for all info - most helpful.

I am "assuming" it were the pounding that caused fail - hard to say. I installed very carefully and did not strip receiver out - of that I am certain. I am not aware of any subsequent tightening of screws, but then these are loaners and who knows what evil has been wrought upon them. I was most disappointed upon seeing the fail, as they have been sturdy little troopers for many events. Truth be toldt - I were a "22 snob" until I set these up and watched them create one Rifleman after another!

Silly me - I was just going to go to hardware store and buy a couple small, fine threaded allen screws and a corresponding tap and drill and have at it. Buy a couple nuts to thread on prior to cutting allen screws to length to repair threads from dremel tool wounds. Would likely need to drill tech site out a bit to accom larger screw. Drill and tap receiver (never heardt of using kerosene - I like it!), and voila! I will likely use the darn loctite on entore sight base this time.

Not sure if I am possessed of the patients required to order something from an actual gunsmith supplier.

I didn't git tall, dark and handsome in this life, but I am darned handy - I'll git-r-done one way or tother and endeavor to remember to post results.

Thanks agin,
PH

An expensive fix for the problem is to get a new receiver. The Kidd receiver will prevent you from stripping out scope base holes in the receiver.
http://coolguyguns.com/webstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=15&products_id=52

The scope base is integral to the receiver.

Expensive but a great way to solve your stripped hole problem.

another option: http://www.nodakspud.com/NDS-22.htm

Never used one of these before but they are on sale.

Guys - I started to post this yesterday and stopped, but maybe it needs saying.

This program is all about thinking outside the box. Our fearless founder can squeeze 11 cents out of dime and that ability has served us well.

I will repair the LTR for as little as possible and spend savings in ways that better serve the program. Sure - those fancy receivers are uber-cool, but will they teach more Americans how to shoot safely and accurately than the repaired OEM receiver?

Don't git me wrong - I do appreciate your suggestions and concern - just wish to gently point out that we are about achieving the maximum result for minimum expense. Frugality was one of the traditions of the Founders and it served them well.

Remember them musket balls tossed into the pond by the Redcoats, only to be retrieved the very next day?

I'll fix it for pennies and put it back into the service of Liberty ASAP.

Thanks,
PH

Quote from: PHenry on September 03, 2009, 12:49:14 PM
Guys - I started to post this yesterday and stopped, but maybe it needs saying.

This program is all about thinking outside the box. Our fearless founder can squeeze 11 cents out of dime and that ability has served us well.

I will repair the LTR for as little as possible and spend savings in ways that better serve the program. Sure - those fancy receivers are uber-cool, but will they teach more Americans how to shoot safely and accurately than the repaired OEM receiver?

Don't git me wrong - I do appreciate your suggestions and concern - just wish to gently point out that we are about achieving the maximum result for minimum expense. Frugality was one of the traditions of the Founders and it served them well.

Remember them musket balls tossed into the pond by the Redcoats, only to be retrieved the very next day?

I'll fix it for pennies and put it back into the service of Liberty ASAP.

Thanks,
PH

With that said JB weld the holes shut, re-drill and tap new threads.

Grab some black BBQ paint and spray the receiver black.

Be careful (if you buy screws at the hardware store) that they aren't so long they stick through the top of the receiver and interfere with the bolt.

Blind holes (that don't open out into the action) requie acouple of taps to properly thread the holes.  One starts the threading (regular tap) and one is made with a blunter tip that cuts threads to the bottom of the hole.  Holes drilled all the way through the top of the receiver probably wouldn't be an issue if you remove the trigger assembly and bolt and clean up the exit hole burrs and remove the metal shavings from the interior of the receiver and then loctite the screws in when installing the base.

If you have the right mentality (or is the redneck, shadetree mechanic type of mentality) you sort of get a kick out of doing it the cheap unortodox way vs. the common high dollar way.  There must be something wrong with me.

And that saga continues.........

Went hardware store - evidently IQs have dropped sharply there in the last decade or two - nuff said.

Went to a gun shop and owner suggested using JB on the threads of original screws, as they would likely still have enough bite to pull sight down long enough to harden. That would likely work, but concerned about sight working loose and no way to re-tension.

Spotted a scope base for a Rem rifle ($3.95) and it hadt two screws that were near identical to original, but in #8x36 (original #6x40). So went looking for tap and drill, but to zero avail. I will check my taps and see what I have. May actually have to break down and order same from Brownells or similar.

I have 5 events coming up in 7 weeks - needs to git done ASAP. I may end up adding a third or fourth screw just to be sure. Would like to make Rem screws work, as repair would be invisible and allow for removal.

In looking at stripped screws carefully, it looks like the loctite may have failed owing to my cleaning method. Evidently brake cleaner and Loctite are not compatible. This may have allowed the screws to vibrate loose and required tightening that I was not privy to, by someone with a heavy hand.

I do not cotton to cleaning them sans brake cleaner - anybody know of a thread lock compound that is mo resistant to hard chems (other than JB)?

PH

PHenery,
Could be the brake cleaner in your problem. The stuff is made to clean brakes. Firearms are made of many materials that are not as resliiant as brake components.
When cleaning my 10-22s I usually just use elbow grease with a peice of cotton cloth like an old elton john tshirt.

i use brake cleaner to get the "crud" off after using solvent, patches, and tools.  or if i have tried a new lubricant and decide that it is not working out well.
you want to stay away from carb. cleaner.

the difference between brake cleaner and carb cleaner
brake cleaner is designed to remove grease and oil.
carb cleaner is designed to remove the "varnish" as well as grease and oil.

i have started using a new lubricant  mo2.  much better than graphite, a lot more heat resistant than graphite.  seems to do well in both hot and cold environments.  my usual application involves using a q-tip with little bit of whale oil or break free.  dab the q-tip in the mo2 powder and and apply to the wear surfaces of the gun parts.

also something to think about is your cleaning schedule. 
your average center fire rifle needs to be cleaned after every use and will usually keep the poi the same for the next use.  changing ammo will give a different poi, but you will still have some kind of center of group.

your average rim fire after cleaning (especially the barrel) will take between 4 and 20 shots to get back to the expected group.
also changing ammo will take between 4 and 20 rounds before you can call a good group.  changing lots in the middle of a shoot, may take you about 2 shots to rezero.

i have seen this effect in 3 different 10/22s, and 3 different 22 bolt guns.


it maybe worth the trouble to make a chamber cleaner out of pistol brush.  the pistol brush is bent at 90 degrees very close to the brush or on the brush itself.  this allows the brush to inserted in the action and the chamber of most semi automatic 22 rifles and is handy when you are have ejection problems and the cases are hanging in the the chamber.  this is followed by a piece of week wacker line with a patch.

my limited 30 cal experience has lead me to the conclusion that changing the ammo in the middle of a shoot, you have to spend 1 to 3 shots to rezero the rifle, even something like changing batch lots will change the poi.

Quote from: AR10 on January 30, 2010, 04:03:52 AM

i have started using a new lubricant  mo2.  much better than graphite, a lot more heat resistant than graphite.  seems to do well in both hot and cold environments.  my usual application involves using a q-tip with little bit of whale oil or break free.  dab the q-tip in the mo2 powder and and apply to the wear surfaces of the gun parts.

Do you have a link to the 'm02' ?  Sounds just like what I am looking for but am not sure where its sold