Project Appleseed

The bunny is my hero.

Quote from: dwarven1 on June 24, 2009, 02:49:14 PM
And this has what, exactly, to do with the Liberty Training Rifle? 

People who both can't see, and can't use "The Force" can't use their LTRs as well as they should.  The optical tangent disguised as a hijack is just one more aspect of the many rules of gunfighting. "Always cheat. Always win"  ......even if your opponent is a piece of paper stapled to plywood 25m away. 

It's the LTP - Liberty Training Patch.

And doubles to give Junior Birdman a shot at flipping 45.

But to maintain some semblance of forum discipline, let me ask:

I've seen several LTR's with the front barrel band removed.  Has anyone actually seen this help?

Also, is removing the barrel band sufficient to float the barrel on an LTR, or does it require some inlet work?

Although I haven't seen that, and therefore could put the pancake bunny picture here, it would seem intuitive that action-bedding (the gunsmith kind, not the R-rated kind) would be necessary....and then, of course verify "float" with a piece of paper.....dollars are getting harder to obtain

Quote from: gunville on June 24, 2009, 11:15:03 PM
It's the LTP - Liberty Training Patch.

And doubles to give Junior Birdman a shot at flipping 45.

But to maintain some semblance of forum discipline, let me ask:

I've seen several LTR's with the front barrel band removed.  Has anyone actually seen this help?

Also, is removing the barrel band sufficient to float the barrel on an LTR, or does it require some inlet work?

More work required but not much just to float the barrel. Some good instructions on the matter just google the subject sure its still there. Bedding is fairly easy also as long as you are careful about greasing that barrel first.

It is not necessary to float the 10/22 barrel and it is actually not desirable at all for the factory standard barrel rifles.  10/22 barrels, especially the longer versions can sag if the action is bedded and the barrel not supported.  What the barrel band sometimes does do is put funky pressure on the barrel.  Just the removal of the band without any additional stock relief can improve groups.   Hogue and Butler Creek stocks are not a free float design including the bull barrel versions.  Free float barrels are not necessary to get 1-2MOA out of your 10/22 LTR. 
All it takes to make Rifleman is 4MOA.  Anyone who can shoot 2MOA with their LTR and center these 2MOA groups on the redcoats looks like a rock star.....

Quote from: fepowered on June 25, 2009, 08:24:06 AM
...
Free float barrels are not necessary to get 1-2MOA out of your 10/22 LTR. 
All it takes to make Rifleman is 4MOA.  Anyone who can shoot 2MOA with their LTR and center these 2MOA groups on the redcoats looks like a rock star.....

I have to agree with this. Take the money that you would have spent on bedding compound and buy a brick of 22LR. The results may be even better. I recently took my 1974 Deluxe Carbin out of its walnut stock and put it into one of the new compact stocks. Having a stock that fits my short arms is really nice. One thing I noticed about the new stock was that it appears that the action screwgoes through a pillar as opposed to using a countersunk washer bearing on the wood.

This was a mod that I had considered when I was having issues with the action screw working loose during a day of shooting. I solved that problem on the old stock with some purple locktite (the same as recommended by tech sights). It's not easy to find but you can get it from Grainger if there is one in your area.

The problem with 10/22 factory barrels are they can be inconsistent. Some factory barrels are very good some are just better off in the trash most are in between. If yours is grouping well leave it be if you like, mine is very good so I left it stock. Replace the hammer before doing anything with the barrel you may be very surprised.

If money is an issue dont throw any away just to get a slight improvement. If money isn't an issue have fun. Personally I like to work on the guns its just my thing since I cant shoot like I used to be able having to do everything from the standing position. Consequently I may do some things to compensate others find unnessecary since I really want that patch. Sometimes it backfires and that's ok everything can fixed and I find it enjoyable anyway.

Make yourself happy and shoot well friend.

Yup, 10/22's tend to not follow solid rules.

Best 2 10/22's I've seen, group wise were both 10/22 Internationals, with the better one being the one Blueskys owns. That thing is downright legendary in the Northeast, made more Riflemen than ANY other rifle we've seen. I swear that thing is AWESOME. It currently wears a 2-7X Leupold, and made it's reputation wearing a 4X Simmons (and, if anything shoots as well or better with the 2-7).

If you know what they are, you see where freefloating goes out of the conversation. If you don't know, they're a 10/22 in a Mannlicher (full length) stype stock. Both of these are stainless rifles and the stocks laminated (and are almost identical, the other being owned by TheBlonde).

Quote from: gunville on June 24, 2009, 11:15:03 PM
It's the LTP - Liberty Training Patch.

And doubles to give Junior Birdman a shot at flipping 45.

But to maintain some semblance of forum discipline, let me ask:

I've seen several LTR's with the front barrel band removed.  Has anyone actually seen this help?

Also, is removing the barrel band sufficient to float the barrel on an LTR, or does it require some inlet work?

YES!

Part of the problem was that the sling was attached to the band. Any increase in pressure on the sling would twist the band and pull the barrel right. In prone it was pulling the shot 3moa. That would have been OK if all the positions resulted in the same sling tension but I could never achieve that.

I moved the sling to the stock and that helped a lot but it was still sensitive to sling pressure. Once I pulled the band off the rifle became much more tolerant of varying sling pressure.

I had no interest in floating the barrel, there is still contact between the stock and the barrel for several inches in front of the receiver, I just wanted to get a little breathing room between the fore end of the stock and the barrel.

When you attached the sling to the stock, did you use the machine screw stud and nut to attach the front stud, or did you use the stud with wood screw?

Quote from: gjwilliamsjr on June 26, 2009, 02:10:42 AM
When you attached the sling to the stock, did you use the machine screw stud and nut to attach the front stud, or did you use the stud with wood screw?

You'll want the 1 1/4 loops, Set No. 1311-3 (1 1/4"), with the screw set as shown here

Thank you V --somewhere on the forums I read that people were using the machine screw front stud and putting epoxy on the nut.  I assumed you would also have to counter sink the nut into the stock as well, and that seemed like alot of unnecessary work when the wood screw stud is available.  Also, its only $9.49 at Midway vs $11.95 at Uncle Mikes  http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productnumber=190783 

Quote from: gjwilliamsjr on June 26, 2009, 10:18:45 PM
Thank you V --somewhere on the forums I read that people were using the machine screw front stud and putting epoxy on the nut.  I assumed you would also have to counter sink the nut into the stock as well, and that seemed like alot of unnecessary work when the wood screw stud is available.  Also, its only $9.49 at Midway vs $11.95 at Uncle Mikes  http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productnumber=190783 

As V posted I used the stud with the wood screws because there was plenty of meat to set the wood screw in.

On the butt end I did counter sink the hole a bit to give the stud a better seat on a flat surface but the fore end was fine as it was.

Quote from: BaldDragn on June 25, 2009, 06:14:07 PM
...
I had no interest in floating the barrel, there is still contact between the stock and the barrel for several inches in front of the receiver, I just wanted to get a little breathing room between the fore end of the stock and the barrel.

To address something here...If you want a 'poor mans bedding job'...look where the receiver sits at the back of the stock, about where the bolt stop pin is.  Take an old playing card and cut it to fit between the stock and action; glue it to the stock and insert the action to hold it in place.  Let dry.

The other point is under the barrel band.  I took a strip of the same card material, cut it a little wider than the barrel band, and glued it in the channel for the barrel.  Once again, inserted the action and tightened it down (with barrel band on it) and let dry.

Free-floating isn't the only way to make these things sing.  Just like your cheek weld, consistent pressure at given points increases repeatability.  Increased repeatability makes for a more accurate shooting stick, which leads to more accuracy potential for shooters.  It also increases confidence and reduces excuses; 2 things that we often need on the firing line at Appleseeds.

Byrdman

MCKNBRD,

You're saying put the card on the inside of the stock near the reciever, do you mean on both sides or the rear?

I'd like to give this a try.

I notice an occasional "looseness" in the trigger housing and don't find the action screw or any of the pins at all loose.

The little uncle mike's stuff might work fine on a 10/22 (or any 22 used at Appleseeds or hunting).  You'll notice not too many GI rifles used a wood screw in the forend to attach the front sling swivel.  It's not the stoutest way to do that. 

How many people complain about the old GI rifles "pulling off" when you slung up?  Stout wood, stout metal, clearance between the barrel and stock out there where the sling attaches.

Removing the barrel band is easy.  If your groups are good with it on then leave it alone.  If not, remove it and give it a try.  If the groups improve, leave it off.

Do your groups open up as the barrel warms up?  The barrel is probably touching the wood in the fore end of the stock.  You can find out where by looping a credit card or other piece of paper around the barrel in front of the fore end and sliding it back towards the receiver to see how far back it goes before it stops (indicating little to no clearance between the barrel and stock/forend).  If it touches on the right side of the channel in the forend chaces are your groups open up to the left as the barrel warms up, touching on the left moves groups to the right.  Touching on the bottom, if well centered may not affect the groups as much but it could.  Removing the wood in the barrel channel where contact is made may result in other problems (the whole thing might get sloppy in the stock - I've seen it happen, once).

I've not seen (in my limited experience of a few rifles) any decrease in performance from having a barrel not touching the wood in the stock channel.  It seems to be okay if the barrel in the area of the chamber (first inch or two of the barrel) makes contact with the wood.  If I have to add bedding compound to one to make it shoot better (never done it on a .22 but have on centerfires) I put bedding compound in that area as well at the receiver area.

If the trigger assembly is loose in the receiver I think someone (way back in this thread) recommended using a center punch to "swell" the ends of the plastic pins to "tighten" things up there.

There's no reason to remove the receiver/barrel/trigger assembly from the stock every time you clean it.  It just takes more time and creates wear and tear issues.

Have to agree with wood screw swivils on the front they do have a bit of give and every time they are stressed seem to wallow. I  always just counter sink a nut in the channel and use those.

As far as Garands never having pull off from sling tension well those are pretty substantial stocks on those and not just getting that on a 22. Ive found using less tension works better than getting that sling piano wire tight like you would on a Garand or Mosin. Maybe Im wrong but it seems the minimum tension to hold the rifle steadier just produces better results.

Sorry to be asking this here, as I'm sure it's posted somewhere, but I haven't been able to find it.

1. I have a 10/22 ready for modifications.  I've read about a "group buy" from Grin reaper and EEL posted somewhere else that he's got some tech sites for sale.  I need tech sites; I'd be happy to get a good deal.  Where?

2. There are some other things I'd like to get, and if someone has more than just the tech sites, it might save shipping etc. to order from that person.  (extended magazine release and something better for the stock end than the slick piece of plastic which is there now (and invariably slips on my shirt during trigger pull---maybe I can fix that with a piece of bicycle innertube---but there may be something commercial that will work/look better), anything else?)

Quote from: franklinfarmer on June 30, 2009, 11:13:00 PM
I need tech sites; I'd be happy to get a good deal.  Where?

http://texasguntrader.com/index.php?a=2&b=23769


He has 2 sets at $35.

Quote from: gunville on June 29, 2009, 05:50:11 PM
MCKNBRD,

You're saying put the card on the inside of the stock near the reciever, do you mean on both sides or the rear?

I'd like to give this a try.

I notice an occasional "looseness" in the trigger housing and don't find the action screw or any of the pins at all loose.

I put them on both sides; think of them as extra support for the bolt stop pin, and you'll have an idea where they go.  Depending on your stock/receiver tolerances, you may have to experiment with fitment and thickness of the card/shim material.

email me at mckngbrd_at_carolina.rr.com and I'll see if I can grab a pic or two for you.  Working weird hours this week, so it may be a few days, but I'll get it to you.

Byrdman

time to pay the piper--here is the rundown of my LTR--

10/22..................................................$199.00 Dicks Sporting Goods
VQ bolt release and target hammer...........$44.99  Midway
Bell/Carlson extended mag release............$4.49  Midway
Sling...................................................$7.10 Numrich
Sling Hook............................................$1.25 Numrich
Sling Swivel set.....................................$9.49 Midway
3-9x40 redhead scope............................$49.99 Basspro
scope rings...........................................$10.99 Basspro
3 extra mags (11.49 each)......................$34.47 Midway
2 dual clip holders (4.95 each).................$9.90 E&L Mfg
Bolt Buffer............................................$6.99 Cheap Gun Parts

Grand Total .........................................$378.66 (plus either tax or shipping)


Did I miss anything?

I still have some assembly to do, but I think I have everything I need.  I still may go with the Tech sights, but every time I go to the range and look at the simulated 400 yard target I convince myself that I need the scope, and then I get home and my ego says I should be able to use the iron sights.  I guess my mind doesn't want to accept that I'm not 20 years old anymore.  Any advice on the LTR or the scope/sight controversy would be greatly appreciated.--Thanks--Gary

The criticals for a 10/22 are (1) blot release - can be done with a dremel on the factory piece; (2) sling & swivel set, (3) extra (even borrowed) mags, and (4) improved sights (TS being the obvious) (not necessarily in the order - I would put them 4, 2, 3, 1)

That combination is your basic LTR - that has made many a rifleman.

The rest is you spending money as you see fit, but not necessary. 
- The extended mag release is really only needed on "old" 10/22's - current models have a mag release.
- The bolt buffer is pretty much a waste; it takes some "clang" out of the recoil, but I doubt if anyone ever had a damaged bolt from the factory bolt stop.
- The hammer - granted a 3# trigger makes it easier, but I would guess most riflemen are made on stock ruger trigger pull.
- clip holders? don't need no stinkin clip holders

I think the scope vs iron is discussed ad nausea elsewhere, but the basic is to shoot iron if at all possible, especially since you are focusing on the front sight - you just keep the front sight on the blur. some day's you'll see them better than others.

Good run down.

+1 on that mod of the factory bolt release, stock ones always seem to be a problem at the worst moment.

Will add that for 25m shooting I get better groups from subsonic ammo, not a huge help but it could make the difference between qualifying and not and the price is now about the same as mini-mags.

Also if you are going to shoot stingers or other Hyper-velocity ammo for varmints and such the buffer does help some. I even noticed improvement with a muzzle brake using that stuff. Opossums hate head shots with those. I don't recommend them for AQT of course.

Aging eyesight benefits from an inexpensive 2x or 3x scope that holds zero well. I tryed the Eye Pal but it requires a very high light environment , cloudy days are a pain using those.

Last be sure your magazines get cleaned periodically, the factory ten rounders work best. To help with mag changes that idea of epoxy a brass knob on the bottom works nicely. Fun rifle for the tinkers out there.

Thanks gunville--the bolt buffer was to protect the scope, not the bolt.  I didn't realize when I got the bolt release how easy it is to do it yourself (not to mention a reason to get a new tool as I don't have a dremel)  The clip holders were because my factory mag did not drop free, it had to be pulled out.  The holders gave me more to grab onto. After reading 45 pages of this thread, I fixed the problem with just a few swipes of sandpaper.  The lesson I learned is that there is ALOT of info here about building an LTR, and I could have saved some $$ by reading the entire thread before I started the build.  I guess I got really excited about appleseed and wanted to start practicing to become a rifleman immediately. 

Rhodes--Thanks for the tips--I'll have to let my brother know about the muzzle brake combined with hyper velocity ammo--he has quite a woodchuck problem.  He is attending his 1st appleseed next week in NY (it kinda sucks, I tell him about appleseed, and he gets to go before I do)  Oh well--more practice for me

   Bolt buffers aren't to protect the bolt, but the receiver. After a few zillion rounds the holes begin to enlongate, (Aluminum being the softer of the two metals), and the pins start to fall out. (Not a problem unless you're loaning the thing out a lot, and I mean a LOT)
   I believe the new plastic trigger group housings will fix that problem since the housing absorbs a lot of the impact and springs back where the aluminum would just get hammered and deformed. (Just my theory, but so far it seems that the pins in the plastic housings are remaining tight long after the pins in the aluminum housings get loose)

   Just a note for you who are finding those worn out, stubborn Ruger bolt releases to be a pain when instructing on the line: Keep a credit card like device handy, (I prefer the plastic hotel door keys, AKA "Magic NPOA cards"), and when you run into "one of those" that refuses to release, just insert the edge of the card between the tip of the release and the trigger housing to the rear of it and push up. It hasn't failed me yet.

   Looks like you got yourself a great LTR going there. It should make a lot of Riflemen!

I'm generally suspect of the usefulness of bolt buffers - particularly the ones for SKS' and AK's - there are millions of these rifles, especially AK's, running reliably in the world. If there was a problem we would have all heard about them?

I do have one in my 10/22, but I was driven by noise reduction than a driving need to protect my reciever. (I had wanted to use it with CB's for low-noise pest control but never did find CB's in .22LR.)

I've just never seen a reciever damaged from lack of a bolt buffer. But I'll defer to Junior Birdman and other multiple 10/22 owners on the necessity for one in the LTR.

Loose pins come more from being driven in and out all the time for maintenance than anything else - or being driven out and inserted the wrong direction.

Quote from: gjwilliamsjr on July 03, 2009, 05:35:18 AM
I guess my mind doesn't want to accept that I'm not 20 years old anymore.  Any advice on the LTR or the scope/sight controversy would be greatly appreciated.--Thanks--Gary

Just went through the same thing last weekend myself. I remember when I could sight down my marlin and the front sight and 200 meter rams were sharp and clear. Not so anymore. I had a lot of trouble getting a good sight picture, finally diagnosed by the excellent instructors. Tried my last AQT with a borrowed LTR and scope, shot far better. I have put my air rifle scope on for the next Appleseed because it looks like I may need a longer barrel to really focus the front sight if I use iron sights. If you got a 10/22 with the 20" barrel you may be ok as I can see the sights on my muzzle loaders and my Enfield just fine, but my 10/22 carbine, just too darn close.

For the scope, I would put my effort in getting one with the parallax set to 25 yards, it will make a lot of difference. I know from air rifle shooting.  Some scopes can have the parallax adjusted a small bit to help correct the problem but nearly all firearm scopes have the parallax set for 100 yards and sighting at 25 yards can be a pain. Unfortunately you really don't see the difference until you use a scope with proper parallax. Shop the air rifle stores like www.pyramydair.com. Magnum spring powered air rifles are notorious for eating scopes so the air rifle guys are big fans of tough, clear, and parallax adjusted optics.

Hope that helps.

DAve

My LTR parts list:

Stock: Hogue Overmolded Rifle Stock, Ruger 10/22, Standard Barrel Channel     $75 http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/hogue-overmolded-rifle-stocks.aspx?a=277557

10 round mag: Ruger 10/22 Long Rifle 10 rd mags    $15
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/ruger-10-22-22lr-10-rd-mag.aspx?a=70686

Parts kit: Extended mag release, jumbo bolt cock handle, bolt recoil buffer, auto bolt release   $25
http://www.tacticalinc.com/ruger-1022-four-piece-accessory-combo-p-1105.html

25 round mag: Tactical Innovations (superior lip and adjustability)       $45
http://www.tacticalinc.com/ti25-advanced-composite-steel-magazine-ruger-1022-p-532.html
Only necessary if you want a good high capacity magazine

Scope: Bushnell .22 Rimfire 3-9x32 Rifle Scope Matte Multi-X     $42
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=887219   (comes with scope rings)

Scope mount base: Ruger 1-piece Tip-Off Weaver-Style Scope Base Ruger 10/22 Matte    $8
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=959343

Scope cover (ocular): Butler Creek Flip-Up Rifle Scope Lens Cover #11 Eyepiece    $9
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=743815

Scope cover (objective): Butler Creek Flip-Up Rifle Scope Lens Cover #15 Objective    $9
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=526417

Chart to determine scope covers: http://www.opticsplanet.net/butler-creek-flip-open-scope-covers.html

Iron sights (if you don't want scope): Tech-Sights for Ruger 10/22, TSR 200 front/rear set       $69
http://tech-sights.com/

Sling and swivels (studs come with rifle): Outdoor Connection 1.25"     $13
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=2403113667

Black duct tape to wind around rear end of sling to make it thick so it doesn't come out of swivel   $0
Any hardware store

Standard Ruger 10/22 rifle   $160 @ Bimart

Scoring Rifleman at an Appleseed                PRICELESS

I found out something that may be common knowledge to you guys but made a huge difference in my shooting the 10/22.

I used to sight in from a rest without using the sling and would have problems with proper zero when shooting for score. Since I keep the sling as tight as possible I realized the rifle is being stressed differently. I tried using the tight hasty sling and keeping my position to the scope consistent when setting zero, no problems after that. Just had to make a small dial in of three clicks and my score increased. I also "tap" the scope with a mag lightly to make sure the internals seat properly after making any adjustment.

By far my best day shooting the 10/22, this is getting more fun every day.