Project Appleseed

Does anyone know about these rifles? Any info would be appreciated.

I have owned 2 of these and still own one of them, it has been thru a pistol grip conversion and with good ammo (lake city surplus) I have actually shot a sub moa group with it!! SoM was at the range with me when I did it, all three holes were touching in a nice little cloverleaf. Almost looked like only two holes, so you could say that I am happy with mine ! I have gotten some sure fire 25 round mags for it and haven't used them enough to really come to a conclusion of durability of the mags, they have fedd every round that has been loaded thru them, just don't know how well they will do over the next couple of thosand rounds.

Quote from: Flathead on August 04, 2008, 08:20:37 PM
I have owned 2 of these and still own one of them, it has been thru a pistol grip conversion and with good ammo (lake city surplus) I have actually shot a sub moa group with it!! SoM was at the range with me when I did it, all three holes were touching in a nice little cloverleaf. Almost looked like only two holes, so you could say that I am happy with mine ! I have gotten some sure fire 25 round mags for it and haven't used them enough to really come to a conclusion of durability of the mags, they have fedd every round that has been loaded thru them, just don't know how well they will do over the next couple of thosand rounds.

Do you have the 16" or 20" barrel?

20 inch barrel and was shooting at 25 meters

I had a Saiga .308 with the 21" barrel.  It was a great rifle... nice and light compared to many other MBRs, and it shot just fine... easily a 4 moa capable rifle, and then some.  I really liked how I had mine set up with the new Russian Dragunov style stock they're make for Saigas with the twisting cheek rest... it gives you a perfect cheek weld for your scope, and quickly twists out of the way for iron sights, if you have the nice side-mount scope mount that sits high enough for iron sight use.  The iron sights are the same as the AK, which is to say they are pretty lame (although the 21" Saiga has a longer sight radius I guess), but as soon as Tech Sights comes out with their AK sights you can fix that!

I really wish I didn't sell mine.  My LR-308 is a better shooter, but it is a lot heavier than that Saiga was.  A Saiga is probably the cheapest way into a .308 MBR, and it would easily shoot a Rifleman's score on the KD.  And nobody needs to be reminded about AK reliability.

When you get a saiga, you're basically getting a quasi-match barrel.  Its a great example of how innovation and VOLUME of production can increase quality.  The izhmash factory in Russia is churning out thousands of these cold hammer forged barrels for way less than it would cost here.  The barrels on these guns (not just the 308) is what makes them.  I just wish they would import the 545 and the 762x54 that they're making.

btw, the Achilles heel, MAGAZINES.  I sold mine and bought a CETME.  they were the SAME PRICE.  but now I have 36 mags.
J

I have owned a few Saigas over the years.  Definitely a quality rifle.  These are far superior to the cheaper WASR series.  The receiver is thicker and the fit/finish is better.  With the "bolt on" pistol grip conversions and the new production magazines these are very versatile platforms. 
Converting metal conventional High Cap AK mags is a fairly simple operation also. 

Quote from: bob 210 on August 04, 2008, 06:44:41 PM
Does anyone know about these rifles? Any info would be appreciated.

Quote from: fepowered on May 27, 2009, 08:50:14 AM
I have owned a few Saigas over the years.  Definitely a quality rifle.  These are far superior to the cheaper WASR series.  The receiver is thicker and the fit/finish is better.  With the "bolt on" pistol grip conversions and the new production magazines these are very versatile platforms. 
Converting metal conventional High Cap AK mags is a fairly simple operation also. 

Quote from: bob 210 on August 04, 2008, 06:44:41 PM
Does anyone know about these rifles? Any info would be appreciated.

The biggest issue with these rifles like any AK is that they must be broken in. They are new and need at least 500 rounds of steel case run though them. Unfortunately that is expensive now and people just aren't doing it since you are looking at 300-400 bucks of ammo even on the 7.62x39. Aside from that there is a saiga forum to find out specifics.

I owned the 308 with the long 22" barrel a few years back. My only gripe was the lack of full cap mags. Back then there were rumors of full cap mags to be imported. Never happened. Now those are available, but some reports are saying they are not always reliable. The 6 rounders were very reliable and we modified the follower legs to hold a couple more rounds. Accuracy was quite well with 3-4 MOA at 100M common. Quality was very solid as the other posters mentioned.
Sights were the usual "just adequate" AK sights. Sight radius is longer and that helps. 
Trigger was long and smooth but with a fast reset.  I called this a "poor mans M1A".
When at the NRA Whittington Center a few years back we shot it the 1000M Buffalo.
In the cold, still mountain air you could hear the bullet hit about 4 seconds after the shot. Sights were at at 900M IIRC and we were all making hits.
But of course the target is slightly bigger than a piece of plywood.
Regretfully, I sold it and my Cetme's. My 308 battery is down to a FAL, M1ANM and a PTR-91.
Below is BlueFeather with the short carbine version. The side rail scope mount is standard but will obviously require a mod to the comb. I prefer open sights on the AK's.

Tech-Sights is releasing a set for the AK that should fit all Saiga types might want to contact them for info as it was to be ready this week. Yeah Im in line too.

Here's the Saiga I used to own.

Slap an M1 sling and a set of Tech Sights on there and you have one heck of a battle rifle.

By the way, those dragunov stocks with the twisting cheek piece are the cat's meow.  If you have a scoped Saiga, you need one of those stocks.  I paid $50 for mine from these folks: http://www.armsofamerica.com/

I have that same stock on my 7.62x39 Saiga, but I find it a little short.

RAA recently came out with a similar dragonov that extends, (but that makes it two evil features in NY - "telescopic site" and "pistol grip")

But I'm planing to do the pistol grip conversion - it's just gone down the priority list with the price of "parts count" components.

BTW - fepowered -

I think you are thinking of the 7.62x39 about a mag conversion being easy. I added a bullet guide to my x39 Saiga and "adjusted" the mag release, so I now have access to all my x39 AK47 mags.

That luxury isn't available to the .308 Saigas, as there is no .308 (7.62x51) AK Mags.

For the .223 Saiga, MSA has an adapter that allows you to use AR15 mags - way cool,

They were looking into an M14 mag adapter for the .308 Saiga, but dropped it as impracticle. They have promised another solution but no word on what it is yet.

Quote from: bob 210 on August 04, 2008, 06:44:41 PM
Does anyone know about these rifles? Any info would be appreciated.

My wife shoots a Saiga 7.62 x 51 (.308 - Ak Variant Hunting Version) with a SWFA Super Sniper 10x42 scope
with the best Russian side mount you can buy from Kalinka Optics. This is a beautiful
rifle and is rated among the top ten battle rifles by some http://www.hunt4bear.com/Gear_Reviews.php?action=detail&g=gear1144719440
Wood furniture is lovely. With a 22" barrel this rifle can be a tac driver.
She is having a muzzle brake called The Tactical Bolt, installed by http://www.scorehi.com/Scorhi
which looks like this: http://www.scorehi.com/Tacticle%203%20copy.JPG
Now with the wood furniture the rifle comes with a Monte Carlo cheek rest (sharp looking) however,
to have an enhanced cheek weld for scope or iron sights we added a Black Hawk padded Cheek rest
which is, we think, just great (we have five of them). They really do help. You can find theme at
Midwest USA or BlackHawk Tactical Cheek Pad - Adjust HawkTex 90CP01BK:
http://www.opticsplanet.net/blackhawk-tactical-cheek-pad-adjust-hawktex.html

Her having just earned her Rifleman's Badge with the ruger 10/22 she is going for it again but this time
with her Saiga. I have no doubt she will achieve the results she is pursuing and the Saiga will perform.
Most amount of rifle for the least amount of money. As one person said you can bury this thing in 4 tons
of camel dung for 20 years, come back and it will still shoot.
If you can't find one, check out the Vepr .308  another really excellent choice although a little more money.

Happy shopping eh? 

CM

Just for the record, here's my dissenting opinion of the Saiga .308.  I wanted a rifle to perform in rapid fire, with the pistol grip adjustable stock.  As it turned out, I never bothered putting it on paper, because the trigger was the absolute worst I ever pulled.  The geometry of the trigger pull is such that it must be pulled a long way UP and back, and the resulting trigger slap on the reset was brutal, because the pointy end of the trigger was right on the tip of the finger.  It will just not perform like I wanted it to in rapid fire mode.  It may very well be accurate, but SLOW for a semi auto.  JMHO... BTW, I'm getting an m-1 from the cmp, and the dealer I bought the Saiga from is a really good guy, and took it back after having been fired 10 rds.  Whew. 

Quote from: staplegund on June 14, 2009, 12:45:04 AM
Just for the record, here's my dissenting opinion of the Saiga .308.  I wanted a rifle to perform in rapid fire, with the pistol grip adjustable stock.  As it turned out, I never bothered putting it on paper, because the trigger was the absolute worst I ever pulled.  The geometry of the trigger pull is such that it must be pulled a long way UP and back, and the resulting trigger slap on the reset was brutal, because the pointy end of the trigger was right on the tip of the finger.  It will just not perform like I wanted it to in rapid fire mode.  It may very well be accurate, but SLOW for a semi auto.  JMHO... BTW, I'm getting an m-1 from the cmp, and the dealer I bought the Saiga from is a really good guy, and took it back after having been fired 10 rds.  Whew. 

That's why everyone serious about shooting a Saiga does the conversion. In factory form its not a MBR its a hunting rifle that's how it avoided being called an assault rifle. Its fairly easy and solves all the things you mentioned. It also has to be broken in as it is a brand new rifle and 10 rounds just doesn't come close. Enjoy the M1 but there's a lot of things you are going to have to learn about it also.

What conversion?  A new trigger group?  I asked the gunsmith at the shop for a solution and he didn't know of any.

On the two saigas I've owned (a 7.62x39 and a .308), the triggers were good and smooth with no slap.  I guess the typical AK characteristic of lots of variation between triggers on different rifles may exist with saigas, too.  The conversion involves making the saiga take a regular AK stock and pistol grip.  This involves installing an AK trigger, so you can install a Tapco trigger or some other improved trigger.  I have a Tapco in my ROMAK, and it has the best trigger pull of my rifles!  Better than the DPMS LR-308!

As for the AK tech sights, they will apparently not work with a .308 saiga.  The tech sights come with a new receiver cover, which is too short for the .308 saiga, and they come with a new return spring loop that might not work either.  You might be able to modify a regular receiver cover or something to work.  I'll know more when I get my AK tech sights in the mail.  They will work with the 7.62x39 and .223 saigas, though.

Quote from: staplegund on June 14, 2009, 06:13:27 PM
What conversion?  A new trigger group?  I asked the gunsmith at the shop for a solution and he didn't know of any.

That is why I referred people to the Saiga forum for good info on the rifle. Its more than a new trigger and hammer so best thing is to go to where the experts reside.

My Saiga x39 trigger is perfectly acceptable.

Two AK's with Tapco G2 triggers - one feels better than the Saiga, the other worse. Go figure.  All are better than other combloc AK triggers - which seem to have slap and slack!

The Saiga is more accurate. Sights are terrible (AK, but only marked for 300m, big honking FS and FSB lower than an AK) I haven't converted it yet but plan to when funds permit.

Conversion really refers to moving the FCG back to the standard AK location - right behind the mag release - and installing a pistol grip and AK stock. This change requires you to be 922r compliant, and the FCG is usually the first US parts to go in.

As Rhodes mentions - http://forum.saiga-12.com is the best location for details etc.

Only have the one Saiga,7.62x39, left at present but Ive done the conversion many times for friends(Best reason to own a dremel). All benefited greatly from the new FCG as far as pull and smoothness. Consequently accuracy improved on all the rifles. No one has ever wanted to go back after the conversions (Heh like they could). That factory FCG is a lot more complicated than any one would like, developed entirely to avoid being classed an assault rifle with no redeeming qualities beyond that.

Ive been eyeballing the 308 a lot lately but just cant make myself do it yet, dam that ammo is expensive but it may be the best bargain of all the Saiga rifles.

922R is a bit of a pain but since most Saiga after market parts are US made its easy to stay out of trouble. Saiga forums have a lot posted on that.

Quote from: Rhodes on June 15, 2009, 04:04:28 AM
Ive been eyeballing the 308 a lot lately but just cant make myself do it yet, dam that ammo is expensive but it may be the best bargain of all the Saiga rifles.

922R is a bit of a pain but since most Saiga after market parts are US made its easy to stay out of trouble. Saiga forums have a lot posted on that.

Yeah - 922r is a pain - on my x39 I've been looking at doing it FCG/Piston/U.S. Pistol grip/mag followers - that would let me use combloc wood.  The mag followers might be a pain as I have 20 mags...

On the 308 - I keep going back and forth - "save my pennies for an M1A", and "buy a 308 Siaga and convert".

If I were to buy another saiga .308, I probably wouldn't even do the conversion if my factory trigger was as good as the ones on my last 2 saigas... especially since i couldn't use that awesome dragunov stock that I love so much with it anymore.  As far as being 922 compliant, does anyone know of any actual instances of someone getting pulled over with a rifle in their trunk and having a cop or a federal agent actually take the rifle apart and see where each piece was made?  even if it were possible to tell where something was made at all?  Being that I've never heard of an individual getting in any trouble for 922(r) issues, its not exactly my #1 concern.   

I've been thinking about another Saiga, but the fact that I could buy an M1 Garand for the same price from CMP makes it less likely!  Aw, who am i kidding... I will probably end up buying both!  The M1 is a lot harder to mount optics on, after all... especially optics that leave the iron sights useable.  Also, I think the saiga is somewhat lighter than the garand... weight is my main complaint with my current MBR, a DPMS LR-308C.  That thing's a regular tack driver, but its pretty friggin heavy. 

Considering the low price for the proper parts, versus the potential penalty if ever caught, using the proper compliance parts is a no brainer.

You're looking at 10 years or more, wit hserious loss of rights tacked on for good measure.

Versus what, $100 to $200 for parts?

I paid less than $100 total for a TAPCO gas piston, SAW pistol grip and G2 trigger set for my WASR-10 a few years back (early 2004). Small price to pay, and it really made the rifle more fun to shoot.

It's very easy to tell if parts are compliant, as they'll be marked as made in the USA. Regardless of anything you've ever heard, the onus will be on YOU to prove they're legal, not on them to prove they're not.

Not a good subject to discuss on line, too.

I could be wrong about the tech sights not working with the .308 Saiga.  Their site says they will work for the .223 and 7.62 ones, but doesn't rule out the .308.  I seem to remember the dust cover being longer on the .308s than a regular AK, but I could be wrong.  Anybody have a .308 saiga and a regular AK to compare? 

Im torn on tac sights for saiga after seeing a few reviews on the product. Im sure they will work things out soon but now Im looking at the Mojo sight also. Either would most likely be great.

As for the M1A yeah I would love one but good god how expensive can that thing get? Right now the Saiga 308 is one third the price of the M1A with 2 MOA or less grouping with a  good shooter. Really hard to beat that AK reliability AND the 308 accuracy and range. I need to win the powerball or something...

there's always the m1 garand... same price as a saiga, somewhat more accurate and longer ranged, and pretty damn reliable in its own right.  Plus on the market they're worth several hundred more than what you pay from CMP... the only downsides are mag capacity and the difficulty of mounting optics (like you need them anyway with a garand!).  Oh, and if you just have to have .308 (i think .30/06 is actually cheaper right now), its pretty easy to do the conversion.  bearing all those things in mind, I'll probably get a garand before I get another saiga... and i'll probably get them both before I get an m1a, unless I run across a killer deal on one.  Whatever -- to each his own.  Software not hardware.   

I have fairly serious back issues and the Garand is just so blasted heavy since I have to do all my shooting from the Standing position. Otherwise it would be the Garand for sure, but Im still looking into ways of bringing the weight down. Then again you are correct on the value of the Garand and they are going FAST. Barring government stupidity the Saiga will be around for years.

If I had known I was going to live this long I woulda taken better care of myself...

That is one thing I LOVE about the saiga... it is nice and light. 

With the encouragement of Flathead I did the conversion on my 20" Saiga. Had a hard time finding a trigger group, everybody seemed to be out at the time. I bit the bullet and bought the Red Star adjustable group, best decision I could have made. Trigger pull is indeed match grade, best of any of my rifles. The side rail mount allowed me to mount a scope with the Molot mount from Kalinka, its very solid. BTW the high cap mags I have used from two different sources have been 100% I sold a PTR 91 to build the Saiga and have no regrets. Light, accurate and as reliable as gravity.


                                                                                         FWIW, Alex

With the Kobra optics that Alex has on his rifle it shoots like a dream!! Glad I talked him into converting it   I have decided to keep the one that I have left, it just shoots so good and is reliable as an AK can be. As for lightening a Garand, get the synthetic stock for it. It changes the way they handle and it a little bit lighter. The ones I have seen have a real nice rubber butt pad.