Project Appleseed

Quote from: Nickle on August 13, 2007, 09:30:18 PM
Well, here's what I did (or will do, in the case of a couple items), the cost of the items, and this is a decent priced, working setup. All prices are retail. They are not special or sale prices, nor are they group buy prices. These are 24/7/365 retail prices.
...

Excellent information, thanks Nickle.  I assume everything is identical whether based on the carbine, rifle, or WM rifle.  I can't see why it would be different.

I have 4 10/22 carbines and a 10/22 International (stainless).

The parts are the same, except I didn't use the sling parts on the International, as it had a sling on it. It may wear a leather sling in the future.

Quote from: CB3 on August 14, 2007, 12:36:04 AM
Muddog said: "Getting back on the LTR subject, a few months back I mentioned modifing a 10/22 to look more like a military rifle, like an M14. Well instead of using the M14 as a base for the cosmetics, I think that the M1 carbine would probably be a better choice, as it is much closer to the weight of a 10/22 than the M14, and with the Tech sights it would look pretty good."

(Picture edited out to conserve space -MD)

Shoots great for adults or my 11-year old grandson. Started with a 10/22 carbine (shorter stock/barrel, no barrel band), added tech sights, black poly forearm, detachable sling swivels, ext. mag release, reground bolt release, trigger work (4 lbs, smooth), bolt buffer, leather sling. It's small and light, so it will waive if not held steady, but it shoots @ 25 meters just fine. Rifle = $225 OTD, accessories = another $100.

CB3

Outstanding, that looks exactly like what I want to build! I'll definately take note of this when I start working on mine, and the only thing I would add is maybe some replica or used M1 Carbine parts like a Buttplate and a barrel band(if I can get it to fit well enough) It probably wouldn't be hard to add a little weight to the fore end to make it steadier. Thanks for the pic CB3!

Quote from: Muddogg on August 13, 2007, 08:55:31 PMcome to think of it, how many people come to an appleseed with a M1 carbine?

I did... unfortunately, I had reliability problems, so she'll have to get worked on first. I'm actually debating getting a scope mount given my issues with seeing a one inch square at 25m. I see that Cheaper Than Dirt has some for about $50 in the latest flyer.

Quote from: dwarven1 on August 15, 2007, 09:45:50 AM

Quote from: Muddogg on August 13, 2007, 08:55:31 PMcome to think of it, how many people come to an appleseed with a M1 carbine?

I did... unfortunately, I had reliability problems, so she'll have to get worked on first. I'm actually debating getting a scope mount given my issues with seeing a one inch square at 25m. I see that Cheaper Than Dirt has some for about $50 in the latest flyer.

Do not, repeat do not, put a receiver scope mount on an M1 carbine.

If you must scope one, the only way to do so that works very well IMHO is the Ultimak mount.  It's a forward rail replacing the handguard.  It does not disrupt the iron sights like receiver mounts will.  Done properly,  you can remove your optic and get back on the issue iron sights in under 10 seconds.

http://ultimak.com/

I've done this to a couple of carbines with excellent results.  You can use the intermediate (IER) "scout" or extended (EER) "pistol" scope of your choice, or a red dot, reflex, etc.  I recommend something small to keep the balance and handling acceptable.  Also, it really must have a quick release mount if you plan to depend upon the rifle in any tight situations.  I like Leupold QRW rings.  For red dots, the Zeiss Z-point is about perfect, albeit not cheap.

What's your life worth?

Do it right.  Load it with 110gr soft point ammo (Remington seems to have the best SP bullet right now).  Make sure it's 100% reliable.  If using an optic, do with the Ultimak and make it quick release.  Fine a way to use a white light with it as well (I've used several methods).

If you want a synthetic stock, the Choate models are good (give you a pistol grip too, if that's of interest).

Set up so, the M1 carbine is an effective "house rifle" that is handy, adequately powerful, and effective.

Nickle, have you done the trigger "stoning" that is referenced here in this thread? I looked at it and then there were posts from folks who said it would cause trigger creep and could be dangerous etc. Would it just be eaiser (or safer) to get the sets from Midway?

Scout, I'll send you a PM. But, I'll say straight up I modified mine.

Stoning a trigger (or any other trigger modifications, other than swapping parts) is NOT for the inexperienced.

Quote from: Nickle on August 15, 2007, 05:09:39 PM
Scout, I'll send you a PM. But, I'll say straight up I modified mine.

Stoning a trigger (or any other trigger modifications, other than swapping parts) is NOT for the inexperienced.

I second that. It is WAY to easy to mess it up if you don't know what you are doing(even if you know what you are doing you can still mess up but you usually can see that you fouled it up and replace it). Stick with the drop in kits or have a professional do it.

Plus if it goes auto on you, the ATF will definately try their best to lock you up for a good long time.

Howdy, ya'll!

I just got back from my first Appleseed, and needless to say, I've got the bug.  One of my first orders of business is building a couple LTRs.  With that in mind, I have a couple questions:

1 - is there a reason everyone chooses the carbine model to build their LTRs.  I've handled a couple of the 18" models, and they seem awfully small and light to me (I'm not huge, but I'm 6" with decently long arms).  Is there a reason why you couldn't or wouldn't want to use the 10/22RR (20" barrel) or 10/22-T (20" bull barrel) models?

2 - if I wanted to put an after market barrel on my LTR, would I have issues installing the front Tech Sights?

3 - can anyone suggest a good source for my rifles?  I want to build at least two, maybe more, because I plan to do a lot of sharing/loaning/recruiting.  I'm in the People's Republic of Massachusetts, so no Bass Pro shops, and it's quite a hike to a Walmart that sells guns (and I'm not to keep on buying from them anyway).

4 - when it comes time to start building, I'm a newbie to firearms and not the most technically proficient guy in the world to begin with.  I can handle drop-in parts, but I don't think I should tackle any serious modifications.  Can anyone help me out (Nickle, this is where you step in  )

Thanks guys!

-TD

Tony, for you, this is an easy one, since you're so close.

I guess you didn't know that one of the 5 LTR's I have is a 10/22 International. I've also got a friend's 10/22 Sporter (DSP) I'm doing some stuff on.

The only reasons many of us use carbines is they're cheaper, and shorter (for those of small stature, like ladies and youths).

The Tech Sight will essentially only work with stock barrels, but, ask Ross how accurate the 10/22 Carbine he was using is. He kept it in 2 MOA most of the time. Sure, much of that was the shooter, but the best shooter out there can't squeeze 2 MOA out of a 6 MOA rifle. SO, stick with the stock barrel (Ruger's heavy barrel is also OK), add the Tech Sights and the few mods mentioned, and there you go.

For source, ask your local shops, and ask Ross where he got his.

Most of the modifications aren't hard, and the newbie should be altering the trigger by parts swapping. If you're up this way, I can help you with that.

So, if you bring the rifles, parts and yourself to Jericho this fall, we can do them up.

Quote from: Nickle on August 15, 2007, 07:54:44 PM
Tony, for you, this is an easy one, since you're so close.

I guess you didn't know that one of the 5 LTR's I have is a 10/22 International. I've also got a friend's 10/22 Sporter (DSP) I'm doing some stuff on.

The only reasons many of us use carbines is they're cheaper, and shorter (for those of small stature, like ladies and youths).

The Tech Sight will essentially only work with stock barrels, but, ask Ross how accurate the 10/22 Carbine he was using is. He kept it in 2 MOA most of the time. Sure, much of that was the shooter, but the best shooter out there can't squeeze 2 MOA out of a 6 MOA rifle. SO, stick with the stock barrel (Ruger's heavy barrel is also OK), add the Tech Sights and the few mods mentioned, and there you go.

For source, ask your local shops, and ask Ross where he got his.

Most of the modifications aren't hard, and the newbie should be altering the trigger by parts swapping. If you're up this way, I can help you with that.

So, if you bring the rifles, parts and yourself to Jericho this fall, we can do them up.

So just to clarify, the Tech Sight will fit on the 10/22-T with the 20" bull barrel?

You will have to add an adapter, also available from Tech Sights. They're $15.00, and I think raf may have experience with them.

 Grin had a Ruger Target Rifle with Tech Sights and adapter at the Toccoa Appleseed November 2006 if I remember correctly(can't really count on that )
I seem to remember he had the TS200 rear sight on it.

Gentlemen,

I  have my 10/22 trainer done except for ordering some mags for Bootcamp,I'm going to order 5-10 so I wondered whats best?

thanks for a great forum.

QuoteGrin had a Ruger Target Rifle with Tech Sights and adapter at the Toccoa Appleseed November 2006 if I remember correctly(can't really count on that )
I seem to remember he had the TS200 rear sight on it.

Smartest money I ever spent!
When you mount the 'dove-tail adapter', just make absolutely sure the dovetail is level with the top of the receiver.
Otherwise, the installation is the same as for the standard sights.

QuoteI  have my 10/22 trainer done except for ordering some mags for Bootcamp,I'm going to order 5-10 so I wondered whats best?

I like the Butler Creek Steel Lips 10-rounders.

Thanks, I'll order the Butler steel lipped 10 rd mags.

Thanks again for all the great info you guys post.

Butler Creek steel lipped mags work well and stick out farther than stock Ruger 10-round mags so they are easy to remove from the mag well. Most higher capacity mags (20-rounders, for instance) are a crap shoot as to whether they feed well.

The original 10-round Ruger rotary mags are still the best and are a good buy at ca. $12 ea. If you join two together at their bases with a "Dual Clip" they stick out far enough to change rapidly by just inverting the stack. This is quicker and even a little more reliable than fumbling with removing a BC 10-rounder and then inserting another BC 10-rounder.

http://www.clipsnstuff.com/images/products/1022/quadclip.gif


I think the four way clip is over doing it.

These guys have a number of other accessories for the LTR, decent prices, fast shipping, good to deal with. http://www.clipsnstuff.com/1022.shtml

CB3

If you use stock Ruger mags, a decent bolt release (like the Bell & Carson, cheap and good) and don't fiddle with things, the stock mags will drop free on their own.

Roger, there are 4 dimples at the front of the magazines that have to be trimmed down for them to drop free.

Chris, I bought my 10/22 at Service Merchandise in Paramus, NJ... in 1981. So that won't help you. HOWEVER... Zero Hour Arms in Easton says they have several at $125 each and I'm working with Phillip at Yankee Artifacts in Northboro to get one somewhere in that price range... but if he keeps blowing me off, I'm just driving the hour to Easton tomorrow night. 

I've had no problems with them, but, I'll check the mags, and alter as needed. Did the ones you were using drop out OK this past weekend?

I'd just drive the hour, and call it good, before they vanish.

$125 is WAY under wholesale, so I'm assuming these are used ones.

I paid $125 for my used one about 3 years ago so $125 now sounds like a good deal.

Just wanted to let everyone know I bought a Tactical Solutions 16.5 inch matt green fluted bull barrel for my 10/22. I know I didn't need to, but wow, if you look at it you will see why I did it. I am bringing it to Ramseur for every one to evaluate. I don't have a custom trigger yet, but the stock one does not break too bad. I will either work on it myself, with the tutoring of Nickle, or buy the parts from Nickle when I get home.

I have also worked out a deal with the vendor to give us a discount on them for a group buy. I bought this one for $179.00 shipped to my door (in two days). Tac Sol website shows them to be $180.00 without shipping and this guy talked to the factory and said they had agreed to a discount. Start lining up so we can get a good deal on them. Grin thought we could try and get some of the guys from rimfire to come here and join in order to get a discount on the group buy. The vendor also said he would work with us on any of his other products (stocks, etc). I am going to ask him to send out  Appleseed literature with his gear also.

It is absolutely beautiful. I also have the Hogue OD green stock to go with it. I have ordered the weaver/pic rail scope mount and will post some pics as soon as I get them. Amyone with any interest i this just PM me.

Has anyone tried/invested/contemplated purshasing and installing hammer and trigger shims?  on SKSMAN.COM I seen some for sell and had never come across them before.  Any thoughts or takers?  Also, an takers on the recoil buffers for the M1A or 10/22?  I was thinking with the LTR that extended life do to use of the buffer might be a good thing providing they perform the way they are advertised.

Ax

  I've shimmed them with good results, but it isn't really neccessary for good acuracy. If I recall, they are not really cheap considering the small effect on accuracy.  I do like the buffer though, it sure keeps from beating up the receiver pin holes.  I have a buffer on the M14, and assume it helps, but can't prove it. It just sorta stands to reason.  JB

Buffers

I use them in my 10/22's, my FAL, my AK's and SKS's, and a ParaOrdnance P-12 .45. I have never had a problem with any of them being in the actions, and it certainly stands to reason that they both reduce battering and (very slightly) reduce the recoil impulse. They last a long time, are easy to get in & out. When purchased for reasonable prices (<$10), why not?

CB3

I have a question about glass for the rifles. I just put the scope on my 10/22 rifle and it is shooting low even adjusted all the way up. This also occured when I tried it out on my M14. I have no knowledge or experience with glass and was wondering if this is a common type thing? Do I need to somehow shim the scope or is there some way to make any other adjustments other than by the knobs? It was four or five inches low on the M14 at 25m with no more up adjustment. Close to the same with the 10/22.

 What I would do is to center the adjustments on the scope both elevation and windage.
Then work on shimming the bases or rings depending what you are using.
Shim under the rear base or ring to bring the POI up,shim under the front base or ring to bring the POI down.
Empty Soda cans make great shims.
The same thing will work on one piece bases but hurts the total fit of the base to the receiver unless you bed it after finding the correct shims. In this case ,it may be better to shim the scope rings.

There exist scope mounts with built-in height differentials.  These are intended primarily for very long range shooters, and given the design requirements, tolerances, excellent quality, and small demand, are not cheap.

There are two possible problems here, assuming that the receiver of the 10-22, and/or the mount are not defective.  It's unlikely, but that is a possibility.  If the receiver is at fault, then sending it back to Ruger is the best solution, unless you want to shim. That is certainly an option, but there may be other causes.

The first issue is the rings.  Mark them (piece of tape) and switch them.  Maybe they are out of spec and switching the rings will cure the problem.  Up to you (if that's the problem) to decide whether or not to send them back to mfr for replacement.  There are refinements on this procedure which include not only switching the rings (position fore-and aft) but also reversing each ring.

Next is scope.  Begin by mechanically centering the windage and elevation lines.

Turn the adjustment screw until it stops.  Don't force it, feel it.

Once you've reached the end of travel in one direction, turn the adjuster screw in the opposite direction, carefully counting/feeling clicks.  Once you've reached the other adjustment stop, tally up the number of total clicks, and divide by 2. Reverse direction and click back 1/2 the total # of clicks, and you've mechanically centered that particular scope line.  Do the same for the other line.

Now shoot the thing and see how much adjustment you really need.  Again, up to you to test the scope mfr's warranty.

Please report back with results/questions.  This problem can be solved.

Quote from: Scout on August 18, 2007, 01:47:35 PM
I have a question about glass for the rifles. I just put the scope on my 10/22 rifle and it is shooting low even adjusted all the way up. This also occured when I tried it out on my M14. I have no knowledge or experience with glass and was wondering if this is a common type thing? Do I need to somehow shim the scope or is there some way to make any other adjustments other than by the knobs? It was four or five inches low on the M14 at 25m with no more up adjustment. Close to the same with the 10/22.

Scout, in your situation, I'd wait and try the scope Fred has for you to use.

Normally speaking, you can shim the mounts, this is normally done with 2 base systems on a bolt gun.

But, since this scope is extremely low on 2 totally different rifles, I'd say replace the scope. Scopes are cheap enough that you don't have to fiddle with them, if the rifle and mount are OK. 30 years ago, I'd tell you to shim the mount. Why the difference? Scopes haven't gone up much in proce over the years, with a few exceptions.

Started my LTR projects yesterday when I picked up THREE 10/22s.  I got two used Carbines dirt cheap and then a new 10/22-T for a pretty fair price.  The Carbines will be loaners, but the Target model is for me; I like the weight and longer barrel.

I send Nickel a PM about getting some Tech Sights for the three (website says they're sold out at the moment) and about the trigger and bolt modification for the Carbines.  I'm probably going to splurge and get a KID trigger kit for the Target; it's going to be my baby.  Hopefully all three will be ready with time to spare for Jericho.

-TD