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CANNELURE OR NO CANNELURE?

Started by Southern Grey, March 31, 2009, 02:25:24 PM

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Southern Grey

March 31, 2009, 02:25:24 PM
What are the considerations for choosing projectiles with or without this feature?
"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."
                                                 -- Ayn Rand

ashrn03

#1
March 31, 2009, 02:53:21 PM
The only time I crimp rifle bullets in the cannelure is when I'm loading for autoloading rifles.  It's not really a necessity, I'm just hypervigilant.  On the plus side, crimping the cannelure ensures the bullet is not driven deeper into the case neck when the round is chambered, and that the bullets in the magazine don't "back out" during recoil.  This is generally not a problem if you've got a good tight case neck.  I've also noticed my crimped loads have lower velocity standard deviation.  On the down side the crimped bullet is usually seated far from the lands.  I haven't noticed any better accuracy with the crimped loads; I suspect the better standard deviations are offset by the longer bullet jump to the lands.

Since cannelured bullets are sometimes cheaper than smooth bullets, I'll use them in a normal fashion: seated .010"-.020" off the lands.  I just make sure I have the bullet seated at least one bullet diameter into the case neck.     
The way to herd cats is to offer treats

Old Dog

#2
March 31, 2009, 03:38:54 PM
If you have an issue with loose bullets (too large of and ID case mouth) try spinning the expander ball on the depriming pin/punch/shaft in a drill while pinching it lightly between some fine sandpaper (600 or 800 grit) to slightly reduce it's OD.  That way it should leave the ID of the case mouths a little smaller and give you better grip on the bullets.

I don't crimp anything but magnum revolver bullets (.357 and .44).  Usually in a box magazine fed rifle the bullet can't move out much from recoil (that and there really isn't much recoil compared to those fun to shoot magnum revolvers).
"The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles."

—Jeff Cooper, The Art of the Rifle

AZRedhawk44

#3
March 31, 2009, 06:20:04 PM
QuoteI don't crimp anything but magnum revolver bullets (.357 and .44).  Usually in a box magazine fed rifle the bullet can't move out much from recoil (that and there really isn't much recoil compared to those fun to shoot magnum revolvers).

Ditto... and lever action cartridges.  I've got 357/44 in handgun that I absolutely crimp, and 30-30 and .450 Marlin that need crimping for long gun.  Not good when a case in front is whacking the bullet deeper into the case during recoil.

I've been told by many shooters better than myself that a bottleneck cartridge in a box magazine needs no crimp, and that more consistent pressure (and therefore greater consistency) is obtained with no crimp.  You don't want finger-loose bullets... just neck tension holding them in.

steves4570

#4
March 31, 2009, 10:43:22 PM
No crimp here, not even on my 4570 loads. I just do not go as deep with the exspander ball, just took a few trys to find what it liked.    Steve :~

Southern Grey

#5
March 31, 2009, 10:57:42 PM
Thanks for the replies, gents. I'm still not sure what to do however.

Maybe I didn't phrase my question properly.

I'm buying projectiles to load .223 for an AR15 & a Mini 14 platform. I've noticed that bullets are available both with a cannelure and without, with some savings to be had buying one as opposed to the other. At the same time, the factory made rounds that I've purchased all have cannelures that are just visible at the mouth of the brass.

It would seem that those marks on the side of the bullet would have some detrimental impact on the flight of the bullet, more drag if nothing else, and effect accuracy in the bargain.

So my question(s) was/were should I buy bullets with a cannelure or not and maybe why or why not. Then once I have a handle on the pros and cons of that aspect, then I would appreciate whether or not they should be "factory crimped" with a cannelure or without a cannelure.

I'm just a Newbie trying to learn the ins and outs.
"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."
                                                 -- Ayn Rand

wcmartin1

#6
March 31, 2009, 11:40:22 PM
In 5.56 I use 77 gr SMK's without cannelure, but use a light Lee Factory Crimp for consistent neck tension without having to turn the necks.

They are highly accurate.

"Unhappy it is, though, to reflect that a brother's sword has been sheathed in a brother's breast and that the once-happy and peaceful plains of America are either to be drenched with blood or inhabited by a race of slaves.  Sad alternative!  But can a virtuous man hesitate in his choice?" - George Washington - from a letter to a close friend after the events of April 19, 1775

"There is no nation on earth powerful enough to accomplish our (the United States) overthrow.  Our destruction, should it come at all, will be from another quarter.  From the inattention of the people to the concerns of their government, from their carelessness and negligence, I must confess that I do apprehend some danger.  I fear that they may place too implicit a confidence in their public servants, and fail properly to scrutinize their conduct; that in this way they may be made the dupes of designing men, and become the instruments of their own undoing." - Daniel Webster, June 1, 1837

ashrn03

#7
March 31, 2009, 11:43:03 PM Last Edit: April 01, 2009, 12:28:24 AM by ashrn03
Quote from: Southern Grey on March 31, 2009, 10:57:42 PM

So my question(s) was/were should I buy bullets with a cannelure or not and maybe why or why not. Then once I have a handle on the pros and cons of that aspect, then I would appreciate whether or not they should be "factory crimped" with a cannelure or without a cannelure.


Cannelured bullets are designed for crimping.  If you're not going to crimp the bullet, there's no need for a cannelured bullet.

I suppose there is some increased drag involved with a cannelured bullet, but my autoloading rifles were never capable of better than 2 MOA accuracy and I couldn't tell the difference between smooth or cannelured bullets in those rifles.  

"Factory crimp" is a rolled crimp; cannelured bullets are designed for a rolled crimp.  I would not crimp a rifle bullet that didn't have a cannelure.
The way to herd cats is to offer treats

wcmartin1

#8
March 31, 2009, 11:52:16 PM
Quote from: ashrn03 on March 31, 2009, 11:43:03 PM

"Factory crimp" is a rolled crimp; cannelured bullets are designed for a rolled crimp.  I would not crimp a bullet that didn't have a cannelure.

Lee "Factory Crimp" dies for rifles does not use a rolled crimp and is designed for use with or without cannelure.  With a heavy crimp from this tool you can actually create your own groove, but I only use a very light crimp for consistency and the ammo is very accurate.
"Unhappy it is, though, to reflect that a brother's sword has been sheathed in a brother's breast and that the once-happy and peaceful plains of America are either to be drenched with blood or inhabited by a race of slaves.  Sad alternative!  But can a virtuous man hesitate in his choice?" - George Washington - from a letter to a close friend after the events of April 19, 1775

"There is no nation on earth powerful enough to accomplish our (the United States) overthrow.  Our destruction, should it come at all, will be from another quarter.  From the inattention of the people to the concerns of their government, from their carelessness and negligence, I must confess that I do apprehend some danger.  I fear that they may place too implicit a confidence in their public servants, and fail properly to scrutinize their conduct; that in this way they may be made the dupes of designing men, and become the instruments of their own undoing." - Daniel Webster, June 1, 1837

Southern Grey

#9
April 01, 2009, 12:02:49 AM
Thanks, guys. I now understand what to do. This board is a wonderful resource.
"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others."
                                                 -- Ayn Rand

ashrn03

#10
April 01, 2009, 12:35:26 AM
Quote from: wcmartin1 on March 31, 2009, 11:52:16 PM
Quote from: ashrn03 on March 31, 2009, 11:43:03 PM

"Factory crimp" is a rolled crimp; cannelured bullets are designed for a rolled crimp.  I would not crimp a bullet that didn't have a cannelure.

Lee "Factory Crimp" dies for rifles does not use a rolled crimp and is designed for use with or without cannelure.  With a heavy crimp from this tool you can actually create your own groove, but I only use a very light crimp for consistency and the ammo is very accurate.

Quite right: I'd forgotten about the Lee dies.  Their "Factory Crimp" is a "pinch" crimp.  But I'd still want a cannelure if I was going to use a heavy crimp.
The way to herd cats is to offer treats

AZRedhawk44

#11
April 01, 2009, 02:18:03 AM
Quote from: ashrn03 on April 01, 2009, 12:35:26 AM
Quote from: wcmartin1 on March 31, 2009, 11:52:16 PM
Quote from: ashrn03 on March 31, 2009, 11:43:03 PM

"Factory crimp" is a rolled crimp; cannelured bullets are designed for a rolled crimp.  I would not crimp a bullet that didn't have a cannelure.

Lee "Factory Crimp" dies for rifles does not use a rolled crimp and is designed for use with or without cannelure.  With a heavy crimp from this tool you can actually create your own groove, but I only use a very light crimp for consistency and the ammo is very accurate.

Quite right: I'd forgotten about the Lee dies.  Their "Factory Crimp" is a "pinch" crimp.  But I'd still want a cannelure if I was going to use a heavy crimp.

Ditto.  You're squeezing or cutting the jacket, otherwise... in an inconsistent fashion.

I have cannelured bullets in my garage... but I don't crimp for .223 or .308.  This helps my 165gr cannelured JSP loads behave more or less the same as my 168gr BTHP match loads.  I can't tell a difference, and I'm getting ready to give up on match bullets once I'm out, in favor of the cheaper JSP counterparts that I can hunt with.
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