Project Appleseed

Anyone on this forum loading for the Swede?  Just aquired one recently and will start reloading soon.....not a rookie reloader, but new to this cartridge.

The Swede is literally one of the finest long-range rifle rounds out there. If everything is done right, the closest you'll come to the ballistics are a 300 Win Mag using the heavy (over 200 grain) AMAX, or the 338 Lapua.

You get more wind drift with the Swede than the others, but we're not talking big-big differences. MUCH better than the best you can get out of a 308.

These are with loads for modern rifles obviously - if you're talking about loading basically milsurp type ammo for a surplus stick, well, that's completely different.

celtarch,

The last time I looked Winchester 6.5 X 55 cases were BADLY undersized at the head.  The Winchester cases were the same size as the .308 Win./.30-06 cases (0.470" - 0.473", 0.007 to 0.010 undersize).

The Remington 6.5 X 55 cases were 0.002" to 0.003" undersize (0.477"  to 0.478") a the head, but not nearly as bad as the Winchester Cases.

.308 Win shows as 0.470", .30-06 shows as 0.473", the 6.5 X 55 shows as 0.480".

Norma, Lapua and the Hansen/Privi Partisan/S&B cases come up to 0.480" as does the Swedish surplus 0.480".

This was all discovered while several of us on a list were finding cases for conversion to 7.5 X 54 MAS.

Buckshot

I found the same condition long ago with commercial British
303 cases.   Exceptions were Herters and Norma, with the
military being largest, and Bredan primed.   Neck sizing only
helped somewhat in adding to case life.   Full length sizing,
I started to examin for case separtions after the third firing.

While I have no doubt that your information on case heads running on the small size is correct, I have to respectfully state that it makes no difference.

At least if it makes a difference, I have yet to see it. Lapua brass is GOOD stuff.

If you run a 142 grainer up to well over 2900 fps (danged close to 3000 fps!) and there is no problem, I can't see that the head size makes a difference.

Bravo,

How are you going to get 2900+ with a 142 gr. bullet out of a 6.5 X 55?

Everything I see lists 140 - 142 gr. bullets at 2700 max!

When using even maximum loads, let alone the OVERLOADS you are talking about you are generating a very good case for a head separation, since the head and web will NEVER expand.

I also said that Lapua brass was up to size specifications, in any case.

Buckshot

I wouldn't push the older Mausers that hard on a bet, not even the M96's.

The .303 is prone to Head separations because it headspaces on the rim, and many of the SMLE's are noted for having the shoulder way too far forward. Neck sizing reduces the problem, but, it isn't caused by pressure, it's caused by what would be excessive headspace, if it was rimless.

Buckshot

How am I getting over 2900 fps with a 142? H4831SC, seating the bullet long (30-06 length action) in a MODERN action. Just get a good action (a-la Winchester model 70 or Remington 700 - or if you can afford it a Surgeon! - hopefully I'll get to pick up one in a year or so) and have a good barrel (Border, Kreiger, Hart, Lilja, etc) put on there, and have the chamber cut to match YOUR ammo spec (throat cut to your OAL and neck diameter).

What you see, as far as 2700 fps max, is set up based on the lower maximum pressures mandated by the older actions. Remember, there are SLEWS of rifles out there chambered for the Swede that were built in 1896. Would I shove one of my long-range modern loads into an 1896 produced stick? Not hardly.

The thing is, the Lapua brass is up to pressure spec for say the 30-06 or the 308. Getting 2900 fps from a 7-08 or 280 Rem (1/2mm larger bullet diameter, essentially the same dimensions on the case, just a bit shorter and just a bit longer) with that bullet weight is cake. Doing so, at the same pressure, with the 6.5 is also cake. I've run the Swede up to 3000 fps before I started getting pressure signs - specifically primer flattening. Drop 1 grain, and go, you still get over 2900 fps.

Heck, to prove the point, look at what the long-range guys are doing with the 260 Remington. That's a 308 necked down to 6.5mm. I'm not getting much over what they're getting at all, and I've got roughly 4mm more case length. What did the 6.5X'06 guys in the 70's and 80's get? I'll give you a hint - well over 3000 fps.

So is this an 'overload'? Well, let's define overload..... Is it over the pressure spec for the action? Nope. Again, a good modern action capable of handling magnum loads (the Norma Magnum actually fits in the same action) - about 50,000 PSI under as a matter of fact. But this is why I drew attention to the differences between what I'm doing and firing a milsurp stick! Is it over the pressure spec of the brass? Nope, a good 30,000 PSI under. Is it over pressure for the primer? Nope, they're still nice and rounded, with no cratering (having a firing pin fitted to the bolt face helps that tremendously). So what could be over pressure? Oh - if I was putting this in a milsurp action, yeah, that'd be overpressure 

Case head separation? Nope, not hardly. Here's the deal on that..... get a good chamber comparator (RCBS makes a good one) and mic the chamber. Set the dies up to neck size only (I prefer the Redding Benchrest dies, expensive and need a little tweeking but worth it!), and cases last a long time.

Here's the deal on case head separation: it has nothing to do with 'overpressure'. It has to do with a case stretching when fired. The case stretches to fill the chamber. When one only sizes down the neck, the casing is already a form-fitted hand-in-glove arrangement with THAT chamber. So where does the stretching come in? It doesn't for all intents and purposes.

I've got brass that I've loaded over 10 times, no worries. The first thing that'll go out is the neck will split, and I haven't had that happen with my Swede brass yet. I wouldn't even concern myself with neck splits except for the fact I'm too lazy to anneal the necks - when I get inconsistent neck tension (sign of enbrittling / work hardening the neck - fixed normally by annealing) I chuck the batch of brass I'm working with. Too much work to anneal when I can just get another 1500 casings incoming - Lapua Swede is cheaper than Lapua 308! Neck splits are the first thing unless you size the case down too much, creating 'room' in the chamber for it to expand. THEN you get case head separation when the case stretches too much, the brass gets thin, and you get something unexpected. 

Does that help?

Really great info.   Another overlooked concern is toward
max side of chamber and full length sizing with dies on toward
the minimum side.   Really works the brass more than necessary.
I think Nickle has something added with 303 and headspace on
the rim with varied shoulder lengths.   However, undersized
American brass cuts down on case life after the first firing,
the damage is done.  It has been historical that the 6.5x55
is an accurate potential round.  Never realized it could be
brought up to this improvement without a larger capacity case.
Wonder what other cartridges can be improved with short cut
powders.
   I was recently introduced to the Lee collet sizing dies for a
22 Hornet.   What a great improvement neck sizing without
disturbing the case body.   Again a fairly new powder, LilGun
gives high velocity (2800 fps) with very low chamber presure.

OK, and another one.....

First off, I mentioned to someone offline that when I do this again (my Swede barrel has far too many rounds down it - the throat is pushed forward FAR, hasn't been a tack driver for years) I'll go with a 26" barrel instead of a 24".

Now then, as far as streching brass. First off, when fireforming, use lube. When the primer is struck, the case is jammed as far forward in the chamber as possible. The neck and shoulder stay 'locked in place' under pressure, while the rest of the cartridge is streched such that the case head contacts the breach face. The streching of the brass occurs where it's going from wall to thickening for the case head. A little lube allows it to move without streching the first time. The metal comes from somewhere, and the somewhere is the path of least resistance - the area where you notice case head separations occur, just north of the case head.

EXACTLY like you said - after the first time the damage is done and it'll continue like that until something gives way. What gives way first depends on how you load, and what gets worked the most. With the set-up the way I described, you can literally resize casings to a few thousandths under such that the bolt BARELY closes without resistance. But I'm not full-length resizing ;-)

Full length resizing just works the brass all that much more, and relocates the problem. The ONLY reason to full length resize on a boltgun is if you're concerned about ammo fitting in more than one chamber. Then you KNOW you're trading brass life for flexibility.

For a bolt gun, if you have your loading set-up right, then neck sizing is the rule. SOMETIMES things get a touch sticky, and you have to bump the shoulder, but again Redding has body only dies (doesn't touch the shoulder or neck) or dies to bump everything but the neck (sizes the body AND the shoulder). These aren't used routinely, just when you start noticing a touch of resistance on the bolt when chambering.

FWIW.

Again thanks for the info.  Have not heard of the Redding  body die

Quote from: celtarch on August 04, 2007, 09:59:51 PM
Anyone on this forum loading for the Swede?  Just aquired one recently and will start reloading soon.....not a rookie reloader, but new to this cartridge.

If you have an M96 bolt action, expect decent to superb accuracy, and low recoil with ball ammo.  Published reloading data from Hornady, Du Pont, Hercules, Accurate etcetera is usually low-pressure range, which is correct for the M96 action.  Same reason published data for 8x57 Mauser tends to be low-end, due to numerous & weaker pre-98 actions.
Lyman makes an excellent 160 grain bullet mold.  You'll do well to keep all loads within the pressure specs of the ball ammunition these rifles were designed for. 
Take a look at the brass disc in the side of your stock: the Swedish armorer measured your bore (land, not groove like we typicaly do) diameter and also graded your barrel condition on a scale from one to three, then encoded this info in the brass disc. 
Land diameter is measured in mm, in increments of 0,01mm (0.00039 inch) look at the disc & they have mm readings stamped in two tiers, from 6,46 all the way to 6,59.  One of those numbers is punched with a triangular mark; that's your bore size. 
Your barrel condition is ranked from one to three, one being new, two being more worn, three most worn, and that is designated by a triangular punch also. 
Older rifles have sights calibrated for the roundnosed ball, newer rifles have a spitzer-calibrated sight; I believe that if your disc is marked 'torped', you're calibrated for the 140 grain spitzer. 

(edit: older rifles have a holdover correction stamped on the disc for the 'new' spitzer round.  Not sure if post 1941 rifles were calibrated to the roundnose or the spitzer.) 

In short, these rifles are the precision weapons of a quality-conscious shooting culture, and if made today would be rather expensive.
 



 

Quote from: Bravo on August 06, 2007, 12:27:28 AM
Buckshot

How am I getting over 2900 fps with a 142? H4831SC, seating the bullet long (30-06 length action) in a MODERN action. Just get a good action (a-la Winchester model 70 or Remington 700 - or if you can afford it a Surgeon! - hopefully I'll get to pick up one in a year or so)

Big Snip for brevity.

a 308! Neck splits are the first thing unless you size the case down too much, creating 'room' in the chamber for it to expand. THEN you get case head separation when the case stretches too much, the brass gets thin, and you get something unexpected. 

Does that help?

Why would you do any of this to a 6.5 X 55, like creating potential hand grenades should any of your ammo get in to an M96 or M-38 when you could do just as much or more WITHOUT exceeding cartridge pressue by using the 6.5 X 284?

I don't beleive in EVER exceeding published load data for a cartridge, and I don't think it should be permitted to be talked about on a board where people with a large and varried cross section of reloading skills might have access to it.

Buckshot

Call me a safety-nazi, but I'm with Buckshot on this topic --- just because it's worked so far doesn't mean it's safe.  Or, to put it in other terms, if you are exceeding the recommended pressure and/or velocity for a cartridge, maybe  what you really need is a different cartridge to do the job.

Not trying to bash the 6.5x55mm as a round, not by any means -- from what I know of it, it's a hell of a good round.

QuoteOh - if I was putting this in a milsurp action, yeah, that'd be overpressure 

And thank you for making that distinction -- not everyone would understand that and might load some of these uber-rounds for their milsurp, possibly with EXCITING results -- so that's an important point that you raise.

To me that's one of the neat things about reloading.  It allows you (everything you do has risk, so make sure you understand what you are doing and learn from it) to explore your rifle/handgun and it's capabilities and "build" a load that works very well in it.

Many suitable varmint bullets work great in my Rem. M700 VS but not in my mini14.
IMR 4350 and 180/190 grn. bullets work great in my bolt action rifles, but not my M1A or M1.
Lead bullets work great in my Colt .45 ACPS but I hear they can actually damage a Glock.
My Combat Commander will feed 255 gr. .45 Colt lead semi wadcutters all day, my Series 80 Gov. Model won't.
If I had a Ruger #1 in 45.70 safe loads for it would not be safe in my (don't have one of those either) trapdoor Springfield.

The list could go on and on.  Its probably a good idea to have a little statement (before and after any reloading advice - but some folks still won't read it and heed it) about insuring the ability of the reader's weapon to handle similar loads to those the advice relates to.

I've done all kinds of reloading things with my M1A that the folks on the M14 Firing Line Public Forum (and probably some here) would cringe just hearing and I've never had any issues.

One of the cool things about guns is that they are all different.  Therefore the factory ammo has to be designed to work in all of them and this requires that it is not optimized for most of them.  With reloads you can "build" what works best in your rifle.  If you try and load rounds that will work in every rifle of that caliber then you might as well be shooting surplus or factory ammo as you are missing out on one ot the biggest benefits of reloading.  Turning your rifle into an outstanding rifle vs. an average rifle.

I've seen dime sized 150 yd. groups from a factory M700 BDL .222 Rem (with the skinny little barrel) once the right reload was found.

I've seen dime sized 100 yd. groups from a factory Win. M70 30.06 Feather Weight (feather light, or whatever) with the skinny little barrel once the right reload was found.

I've seen a (4 out or 5 anyway) nice group in the head of a pop up target at 600 yds. again with reloads that shot better than anything else I've found in my M1A (they were bad for the rifle though, hence my first hand knowledge of what IMR 4350 will do to and M1A Op. Rod).

Maybe the best advice we should be giving on reloading is to buy several books, read them (alot) and learn how to read the signs of high pressure as you work up loads, never give advice on powder charges - just advise them to refer to manufacturers data, and try to help with the mechical/adjustment problems that crop up.

Yes, absolutely, reloading can be dangerous, hazardous, etc., etc.  if not done correctly.  No doubt about it.

Quote from: Buckshot on October 07, 2007, 01:25:12 AMWhy would you do any of this to a 6.5 X 55, like creating potential hand grenades should any of your ammo get in to an M96 or M-38 when you could do just as much or more WITHOUT exceeding cartridge pressue by using the 6.5 X 284?

First off, there is no formalized SAAMI pressure spec for the X284. A recommendation only. Second off, I've got buddies that run the X284 - they get between 1500 and 2500 rounds per barrel, depending on how fast they run the bolt (as in how hot the barrel gets). At the most, they get 150 fps more speed than I do with the Swede, but the Swede gives about double the barrel life with 10 grains less powder per round. I should mention that my Swede hasn't been fired much in the last two years, because I ran it enough to erode the throat to the point it's not accurate any more - I think that qualifies me to speak about my experiences, eh? I mean, how many barrels have you shot out? I guarentee this one isn't my first. Personally, I don't own a M96 and I'm not concerned about someone using my ammo - if they steal it, they deserve what they get. I do own a '38, and my loads are PROVEN COMPLETELY SAFE in mine - although I haven't run but a couple hundred rounds of this ammo through that stick, just to see how it'd do.
Third off, you should know that a round that a rifle isn't designed for - within limits - won't 'hand grenade' anything. Or have you never heard of a gentleman named P.O. Ackley? Maybe you haven't been on the firing line at some pretty big competitions when it gets hot out.... people have to tap the bolts open due to overpressure. NO GRENADES. As Ackley proved, you can essentially double-charge a round, and it won't "grenade", although it will give other problems.

Quote from: Buckshot on October 07, 2007, 01:25:12 AMI don't beleive in EVER exceeding published load data for a cartridge

First off, I explained exactly what I was doing, and why - and I said not to toss these rounds into an old rifle. Second off, I never published / posted my charge data - just the powder I was using. If they've got a chrono, and want to load that much powder to that velocity, then hopefully anyone reading is a big enough boy to understand the other nuances of loading. Third off, I've already explained to you that this is NOT an 'overpressure load', and went into detail about how it could NOT be an overpressure load - by about 50,000 PSI.

Now if you want to go into the fact that my rounds are 'not M96 optimal', then that's your option. I would state though that I know people - professional snipers - from the Netherlands and guess what round they use there? Oh, and they have 'not optimal for M96' rounds there too - commercially available. Where do you think I got the idea? Do you figure I'd just go and say "let's throw more powder in here until something explodes"?

The published loading data is for the M96. How about if we say that M96 data is 'overpressure' because if you chuck a 'up to full spec' M96 load in an M94 or a Norwegian Krag, you're gonna have problems. Or maybe you want something similar to what the loading books have for 45 Colt - a 'Ruger or Contender only' section as well as a 'Colt Single Action' section. I guess it would be OK for you if there were such a section, because someone TOLD you it would be OK. Don't use logic, common sense, or anything else though - wait for someone to TELL you it's OK in WRITING.

In any case, I challenge you to state anywhere that I have disclosed any load that is 'overpressure', and explain how it is 'overpressure'.

Or I'll give you another 'out'. When you've spent the last 10 years in a career making propellants, you've got the instrumentation to figure out what's what - and the understanding and experience to wrap it all together, you can chastize me in public. Until then, no thank you. You do understand test barrels, piezzo pressure transducers, and have all those at work, right?

Quote from: Buckshot on October 07, 2007, 01:25:12 AMI don't think it should be permitted to be talked about on a board where people with a large and varried cross section of reloading skills might have access to it.

And flatly, I couldn't care less about what you think should be permitted. Unless, of course, you've been duly elected or appointed to the "net nanny" position and I'm unaware of your status.

By the way, I know three fellows running 142 SMKs at 50 fps slower than I get - but they're running them in the 260. Yeah, faster powder, much less case capacity, and therefore significantly greater pressures. These guys are really stupid like me though - top flight nationally recognized gunsmiths and competitors using sticks in open sniper competitions, and doing VERY well internationally.

But let's get back to the original post, where he said that he was not a rookie to reloading. But since that's not applicable information, let me revise my statement to this:

No, the Swede is a silly cartridge. It's limited to 2600 fps with a 140 class bullet, because people that own rifles made well over a century ago don't understand that there's a difference between modern metalurgy and something from 1894. If you own a rifle made in the last 60 years or so, chambered for the 6.5X55, and you're an experienced reloader, don't tell anyone that 1894 ballistics can be improved upon. Go buy a real barrel burner like the 6.5 Mag, because someone at some point said that it was good for a higher pressure IN THE SAME RIFLE MAKE AND MODEL. And whatever you do, don't tell anyone any trade secrets - like the trade secrets readily available all over Europe, through Hodgdons, Sierra, and most any other significant component manufacturer.

Man, this ain't voodoo, and it ain't rocket science. What it is, however, is insulting to my intelligence. And to that end, I bid you a good day!

A simple reminder here folks, if you are a reloader.

Make sure you keep your ammo to a level that is safe in your rifle.

Bravo is making ammo that is not dangerous in some 6.5x55 rifles, like a Remington 700. That is his perogative. That ammo is NOT dangerous in his rifle.

If you are loading for an older rifle, like an older "non '98" Mauser, pay close attention to your loads. Especially if you get a "small ring" Mauser in .308.

I will also concur that only a fool would use a 6.5x284 or 6.5/.264 Mag for a target rifle. The barrels get shot out REAL quick like.

I'll add a warning that ANY data given that is unsafe, in my opinion, will get edited or deleted.

When I say data, I'm talking specific amounts of powder for the load. Bravo was wise enough to keep that information to himself, so no harm, no foul.

Bravo,

Whatever your experience (and I don't really care what that experience is!) I think you are doing reloading AND shooting both a dis-service discussing overloading (If it is over the level published by three reliable sources such as powder and bullet manufacturers, it IS an overload) in a forum like this.

Period.

Also, you never bothered to question WHAT rifle the original poster to this thread has, and going back and re-reading it it sure looks like it is a good chance it is a Swede M96 Mauser, though that is not plainly stated.

Your first comment to me is that undersize cases don't matter because you were hitting 2900 fps with a 142 gr. MK.

I asked you how you did that you said H4831SC and a modern rifle.

I can just see it now, a guy buys a Swede Mauser, reads about 2900 fps in the 6.5 X 55 and goes for a jug of H4831SC and Lee's reloading manual, using the interpolation page in the wrong way or one of those estimator programs.  It is not all that hard to backtrack on this and get lots of people way over their heads and into trouble.

Rifles may not actually grenade (as in break into nice even pieces of shrapnel) but that they will blow up and throw parts is known and happens more than once in a while.  A gentleman a couple of years ago died with a bolt in his forehead due to a bad reload.  There is one from Sweden making it way around the Internet right now.  Even if the action does not grenade, the gas release has a very good chance of injuring someone as it blows out a magazine box, splits a barrel or throws chunks of handguard around the general area.

I am asking that you keep it a little more in the dark AND TREAT IT A LITTLE MORE LIKE ROCKET SCIENCE OR ALCHEMY instead of acting like the famous Clark Magnusson (SP?) off of rec.guns!

Nickle,

There were apparently a whole lot of crazy people at Camp Perry for the long range matches this year.  The 6.5 X 284 was probably the #1 long range cartridge among people that had a choice (non-Palma shooters - they don't have a choice).

Buckshot
   

Buckshot, let me repeat: I challenge you to state anywhere that I have disclosed any load that is 'overpressure', and explain how it is 'overpressure'.

Don't sweat it though - really. If I were in your shoes, I certainly wouldn't expose my ignorance in the matter by accepting such a challenge.

Feel free to think that I'm doing anyone a dis-service. And I think you're doing shooting in general a dis-service in maintaining that the earth is flat and that we shouldn't venture from our homes at night due to the 'boogey-man'.

The fact of the matter is that YOU HAVE NO CONCEPT of what 'an overload' is - you're just parroting something you read somewhere in some gun rag. Get over it. And by the way, you CAN get this data for these loads from MORE THAN THREE RELIABLE SOURCES!

And no, I didn't ask what rifle the OP referred to, because he said he was QUOTE: "not a rookie to reloading" - which means that HE WILL KNOW WHAT IS INAPPROPRIATE FOR HIS RIFLE AND USE GOOD PRACTICES AND NOT VENTURE INTO SUCH! What kind of rifle he has MAKES NO DIFFERENCE - AN EXPERIENCED RELOADER WILL STAY WITHIN THE LIMITATIONS OF HIMSELF AND HIS EQUIPMENT!

Man, I ought to hook you up with some folks I know - notably the folks that build test barrels, and the folks at H.P. White. You HAVE sent in rounds to H.P. White, haven't you? Elsewise, how would you have a flippin' clue as to what YOUR ammunition pressure is? Better yet - do you have any idea how pressures obtained in a Border test barrel relate to YOUR rifle? Thought not.

In the case you cite, where some doofus is going to ignore all the rules of reloading and 'start interpolation' - even though progressive powders don't work that way (and I'm dying to hear you explain how progressive powders work!) - and blow up his rifle because of ME (even though I stated specifics otherwise).....

I did mention that my load was 100% safe in a Swede Mauser - technically a '38. I know 'cause I've done it - and I've got the chrono data to prove it. It's a touch slower than my match rifle, but that's what you'd expect going from a good barrel to a factory rough barrel.

Let the doofus run up a 'starting load' so hot that he has to take a rubber mallet to the bolt handle. Oh yeah, you never read P.O. Ackley, right? I guess he didn't count, 'cause he wasn't published on the internet - the cowpath to disinformation.

Let the doofus get his experience the hard way - I won't 'dumb down' my comments for idiots that have no idea what 'safe practices' are - and I won't dumb down my comments for you either. Although in retrospect, maybe I should dumb down some of my prose for you, as you obviously have difficulty in the reading comprehension arena. How about we meet in the middle, and I'll issue this disclaimer:

"IF YOU, AS A RELOADER, ARE SO INCREDIBLY STUPID, THAT YOU CAN'T TELL WHEN YOUR PRIMERS ARE STARTING TO CRATER OR FLATTEN, THEN YOU ARE BEST SERVED BY FOLLOWING THE MOST CONSERVATIVE RELOADING MANUALS THERE ARE - YOU SHOULD ONLY USE STARTING LOADS, BECAUSE EVEN PERFECT MANUAL LOADS MAY GIVE PRESSURE SIGNS IN SOME FIREARMS."

And I'll follow it up with:

"WARNING: IF AS A RELOADER YOU ARE SO INCREDIBLY STUPID THAT YOU WOULD MATHEMATICALLY INTERPOLATE A STARTING LOAD INSTEAD OF WORKING UP A SAFE LOAD BY REPETITIONS OF SMALL INCREMENTAL ADDITIONS, PLEASE SELL ALL YOUR RELOADING GEAR IMMEDIATELY BECAUSE YOU ARE A HAZARD TO YOURSELF AND OTHERS AROUND YOU. WHILE YOU'RE AT IT, SELL ALL YOUR FIREARMS TOO, AS YOU'RE MORE THAN LIKELY TOO STUPID TO UNDERSTAND WHICH END THE BULLET COMES OUT".

Would that be fair enough to you?

Next up: I haven't ventured into rec.guns, so making references to someone there isn't meaningful to me.

And you said, "I am asking that you keep it a little more in the dark AND TREAT IT A LITTLE MORE LIKE ROCKET SCIENCE OR ALCHEMY" and my reply would be "Why should I? You're doing a magnificent job of attempting to keep people in the dark on your own - but at least you're living by example!"

If you don't want rocket science, don't ask a rocket scientist.

As for the 6.5X284 and Perry, my 'smith's wife took high woman in the masters division with that caliber, and a nice purple boltgun. Gee..... you think maybe she ought to have run that 6.5X284 at Carcano velocities because there isn't a SAAMI pressure spec on the caliber? How could she have POSSIBLY known that the cautiously worked-up load wouldn't "hand grenade" on her? DOH! [I'm so scared, I don't know if I should be handwringing or bedwetting!]

Do you know who DID set the recommended pressure limit on the X284? I'll give you a hint - the same folks that make the Swede brass that I use, they're European, and if you get ahold of them THEY ARE ONE OF THE THREE RELIABLE SOURCES OF RELOADING INFORMATION UP TO MY VELOCITY FOR THE SWEDE.

BAH!

I certainly hope that you and I are done. You know..... no, nevermind. I just sure am glad that you're out there to censor intelligent conversation on the extreme off chance that some doofus attempting to make the Darwin Awards might read something I said and use a tiny bit of information to mess up a rifle.

May the bleeding heart 'do-gooder' liberals in the world stop trying to save us from ourselves, and let us live our lives by our own means - whether that means failure or success! Maybe you ought to warn people away from posting on the internet, for fear that they might be around a storm, lightning hit a telephone line, the surge follow that line to their house, blow out their computer, and fry them.

I sincerely, honestly, despise getting into 'pie fights' like this. Enjoy this little exchange, as I don't forsee debasing myself in conversation with you again.

I'm new to this forum and to RWVA, but I've been loading for the Swede for some time.  Last month, I took an Axis doe with my sporterized M96.  She made one jump and fell flat.  I couldn't have wanted anything more effective.  The rifle is handy, soft-kicking, and a delight to shoot.

While I'm sure it's safe to bump up the pressure and get another 200 or 300 FPS, with knowledgeable loading and the RIGHT RIFLE, I have to wonder, why bother?  And why worry that the ammo might find its way into an oldie and cause problems? 

If you want to launch 140-grain bullets at 2,900 to 3,000 FPS, I have three workable suggestions:  .264 Win.Mag., .270 Win., .280 Rem.

Didactic, factory fodder does exactly as you say - nails animals quite well. West Texas deer acted like you said, or didn't even jump first.

Why bother running up the velocities (note: not necessarily pressures, but velocities) - longer range shooting. The flatter flying, faster a bullet is, the less time it spends in the air to be blown around by the wind. There are ranging benefits as well. If you're talking about hunting, there's no appreciable reason at all. If you only shoot to 500 yards or so, again, there's no appreciable reason. If you stretch your ranges to 1K, then there's a big reason.

I'm not concerned with my ammo finding it's way into 'an oldie' - my ammo is proven to be perfectly safe in my 'oldie', a Husqie.

Major benefits of the 6.5 Swede over the 264 include accuracy and barrel longevity. A 264 won't get 2500 rounds out before the throat is torched. I learned this one second hand. The Swede can do over 5K before things get nasty. The closest similar round I've found was the 25-06, and mine didn't last a full season - I'm guessing 2000 rounds.

Likewise, the high BC bullets are in 6.5, and there aren't any in 270. The 270 caliber is hunting class, and the 6.5 is ballistically superior. Again, if we're talking about a 500 yard max, it doesn't matter. When you shoot on your personal 1K range, it matters.

The same thing applies to the 7mm (280) - the best match bullets in 7mm don't have the BC of the better 6.5mm bullets. Enough so that it is quite evident at range.

   Yep I agree that every firearms have different characer-
istics.  Due to tolerances in manufacture and wear.   While
attempting to fireform brass for an improved 30-06 (30 Gibbs)
The case taper  was  decreased and moved forward and
left a neck length of about a .308.   Advertized you could shoot
either a standard that would form the Gibbs case or the loaded
Gibbs.   WRONG !  A good deal of regular 30-06s formed, but
many ended up with a case separation crack on them.   Reason,
is the case had nothing for shoulder to head space on and the
firing pin drove it forward, and movement rearward on firing
drove it back against the bolt face.   Must have been some
out of sight pressures generated.
   The solution was using cast 180gr, seated with being able to feel
it touch the rifling.   Moderate loads, with never a case lost forming
a couple a thousand.   There after heard of cream of wheat filler
and hydraulic with water, but this seam full proof.
   I am against the lubing of the outside cases as it will definately
raise pressures !!!!!   With a lot of wear on that 6.5 and some
throat erosion it most likely acts as a free boring. For awhile. 
Weatherby used to use it on their rifles.   However, the free boring
cuts down on pressure and velocity also drops some.   There
must be an ample magazine size (30-06 without a filler)?   I rather
doubt that old Mauser would allow magazine feed with the bullets
loaded that long.

Oohrah, you got it. The long-range 6.5 Swede started out life as a 270 (30-06 length).

The barrel in the other one didn't start out life with a 'long throat', the throat just got pushed that far with a slew of rounds 

Lubing cases: it's actually a good thing for the first go. The mechanism for case strech is EXACTLY like you said - the firing pin shoves the shoulder forward, and it seals. The propulsion drives back to the breachface from there, pushing the casing that final 'shove' when the gas impacts the base of the case.

That's why case head separation always happens right where it does, and is also the reason the striker spring on a rifle is MUCH more stiff than the firing pin spring on a pistol.

If you're going to neck size only, then lube new brass LIGHTLY (I like the spray-on stuff from Hornady myself) and fire. It cuts down on the initial stretch.

Once the stretch starts, it doesn't stop. Slowing the intial stretch helps case longevity significantly. Like I said though, it only applies to casings you're only going to neck size (and occasionally hit with a body die).

Thanks for the original post Bravo,very cool. How about some useful advice or pet load info for M-96 owners. It's my second favorite rifle after my Garand, and I'm not up to reloading for gas guns.

Not that I am pushing their product, but I have found their books useful for my purposes of reloading.

www.loadbooks.com

They have several different calibers to choose from. The price per book is $10.95 and includes shipping. I use the one for 6.5X55 and have found their load data very accurate(+/- 50fps on velocity). The books are also filled with history/specs/do's and don'ts. All in all a very thorough manual, IMOP.

These are my views. They are not intended to steer anybody, merely to let them know what is out there.

Thanks Thor.
Thanks for the post. I like the price. CHEAP GOOD!