Project Appleseed

Quote from: Southern Grey on February 01, 2009, 09:11:25 PM
I took our two rifles to the range and put about ten rounds each through them. The rifles performed well, but were consistently about 7 inches high at 25 yards with the rear sight bottomed out.

I've read where the rifling is 1:9.5. What would be the ideal projectile weight to fire then?

I ask because I'm going to get an adequate supply of ammo for my two new shooters and 147gr is $.1875/rd and 180gr is $.25/rd.

I also need to find a deal on some of the good (I've read most of the copy stuff is garbage) 5 round chargers for these guys as single loading a round at a time with the recessed chamber is a serious drag.

With the 1:9.5 twist, you should have no trouble stabilizing the 180's, I'm using 175gr in my 1:10 twists with great luck. But I would use the cheaper 147gr for training.

I have heard two camps regarding the aftermarket strippers, some love the steel, some love the brass, but both agree that they need to be deburred, lightly polished, and lightly lubed. I went with some brass ones I bought on ebay, and after doing the above they work great.

edited to add...

Here is a video clip of fast Mosin loading. It is a bit different than the way I learned to load a stripper in a Mauser so you may find it interesting.
http://s232.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/spanweb01/?action=view&current=MosinChager2.flv

Hope that helps

As far as sticky bolts go, sometimes there is hard cosmoline built up in the area where the bolt lugs lock into, it is hard to see in there and can be a little tough to get out, I had used rubbing alcohol and just kept scrubbing away.

There is one inexpensive fix for the front sight on the 91/30, you take a piece of wire insulation or something like shrink tube that fits over the front sight nice and snug and make it slightly taller, maybe from 1/8 to 3/16 of an inch you would just have to experiment, one person had done this and filled in the top section with j b weld using a toothpick and just filed it down to where it was zeroed.

If you are having trouble getting the rifle zeroed or grouping properly try it with the bayonet on.  They were designed to be shot with the bayonet fixed.

Quote from: bedford on February 03, 2009, 08:55:07 PM
If you are having trouble getting the rifle zeroed or grouping properly try it with the bayonet on.  They were designed to be shot with the bayonet fixed.

i thought that was directed towards the M44 Carbine?  I've had no problems getting my 91/30 zeroed, and it didn't even come with a bayonet.

Quote from: Robb on February 03, 2009, 10:23:19 PM

Quote from: bedford on February 03, 2009, 08:55:07 PM
If you are having trouble getting the rifle zeroed or grouping properly try it with the bayonet on.  They were designed to be shot with the bayonet fixed.

i thought that was directed towards the M44 Carbine?  I've had no problems getting my 91/30 zeroed, and it didn't even come with a bayonet.

Robb,

The M91/30 was issued with a bayonet, but NO SCABBARD.

The M91 was not normally issued with a bayonet scabbard either.  Scabbards WERE issued with the Cossack rifle (combined with a sword and scabbard for it) and some of the carbines to shorten them up for horse work for specialty troops.

Russians used the "fix 'em and forget 'em" method of bayonet management.  Remove them mostly to keep from hurting yourself while cleaning your rifle.

Many Russian bayonets never had a scabbard till they were captured by the Finns or some other country got them as war reparations.

Buckshot

http://www.gunsnammo.com/

This is a dependable source for Finnish Mosins.
Remember that the Finn version is a FAR better rifle than the $79 dollar Russian WWII manufactured rifles, and prices reflect this.

One more thing, if you don't already know, the antique section of the above page has Finn Mosins that need no Govt. paper work. The recievers are pre-1899 and are not considered firearms by the feds.

Reading this - a couple of notes on Mosin Nagant...

Elevation accuracy...

A few postings on mil-surp boards indicate some of these (the M44 in particular) is more accurate with the bayonett folded out.  I only have an M38 and I don't have a bayonette so I can't attest to this.

Also - the front sight post isn't adjustable and is generally considered too short; heat shrink tubing or electrical insulation is recommended to lengthen the post - then trim to get the elevation correct.


The safety...

Working with the safety on one of these quickly leads me to belive "friendly fire" casualties were not a concern for uncle Joe. Multiply that x 10 if you've tried to use the safety in COLD weather.

The rule of thumb is to wait until you are ready to shoot before you chamber a round and simply not use the safty.

FWIW: Here is a mod I found on improving the MN safety - looks like a Schmidt Rubin.

http://www.gswagner.com/mosin-nagant/safe/safe.html


Getting a shine on the bore...

Last fall I picked up an M38 cosmo-queen - similar to the 44, but without the 'built-in' bayonett.

It was cacked with cosmoline and that makes it hard to pick out "a good one" from the dozen others at the dealers.

I spent hours cleaning it - especially the barrel. I heated the stock and parts in the oven, used degreasers, poured boiling water down the barrel, then ran dozens of patches, wd40, break cleaner, and number9. After some extensive cleaning I was pretty certain it was as good as it gets.

Then I read about barrel electrolosis, so i figured I'd run an experiment just to see what it would get out.

I set-up an electrolosis rig on mine using an old cell-phone charger. This was well worth it - I could not believe the copper and crap that came out of that thing with the electrolois. What I thought was a "clean" barrel was actually pretty crappy.

I did this a couple of time - still getting cosmo out of the grooves - then cleaned it with number9 - the thing shines now.

QuoteA few postings on mil-surp boards indicate some of these (the M44 in particular) is more accurate with the bayonett folded out.

See, SG, you're overthinking this.  The M-N was designed for the hands of a strong but illiterate peasant who would come charging out of the trench, bayonet at the ready, who might get off a few shots before running someone through, or be mowed down by a machine gun.

Extend the bayonet, take a few deep breaths, and go charging toward the target while screaming at the top of your lungs.  You'll be surprised how easy it is to work the bolt then.  And you won't get crowded by other shooters after that, either.

LOL

can't help but think of the scene in "Enemy at the Gates" - they issue an MN 91/30 and 5 rds on a stripper to one guy, and give the next guy a 5rd stripper and tells him to follow the guy with rifle until he gets killed, then pick up his rifle....

Not the rifleman mentality I'm supposin'

I have read where people have used turpintine on a brush in the chamber to remove the laquer build up, has anyone heard of this before?

Quote from: 1911Ron on February 19, 2009, 09:55:10 PM
I have read where people have used turpintine on a brush in the chamber to remove the laquer build up, has anyone heard of this before?

Yes. Here:
http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting2005/eliminatesbs/index.asp

This is pretty close to what I do on my Mosins. Go easy in the chamber though.

Quote from: 1911Ron on February 19, 2009, 09:55:10 PM
I have read where people have used turpintine on a brush in the chamber to remove the laquer build up, has anyone heard of this before?

As mentioned in TaosGlock's referenced website article, I found acetone works much better than mineral spirits (paint thinner) when cleaning a Mosin chamber.  Never tried turpentine on a chamber, but I've tried using it for cleaning sticky crud off other materials  found acetone works better on metal.  Of course acetone is a 'hot' solvent and will dissolve the lacquered stock finish too so be careful.

This advice was given to me for a badly sticking bolt by AZRedhawk44~

"Yeah, that bolt is a stinker to open on a fired case.  You've got the lacquered steel cases that kinda melt into the chamber (or steel, or brass cases), the remaining cosmoline in the bore and chamber aren't doing anyone any favors, and the design of the rifle to cock the bolt right when you unlock the action isn't helping at all.

Get a gallon of deisel fuel and put it in a tall bucket; maybe even something like a flower vase or juice pitcher if you can pry one out of your girlfriend/wife's hands.  Take the barreled receiver out of the stock, remove the bolt from the action and completely submerge the receiver and chamber section of the barrel into the deisel.  Toss your bolt in there while you're at it.  Let it sit for a few hours, then pull it out and dispose of the contaminated deisel fuel.

The deisel will open the pores of the metal and leach out the cosmoline that is causing stickiness for your cases.

Let the rifle air out for a few days, clean it with some Hoppes, wipe it down, oil it and take it out shooting again.  I bet the bolt will feel a lot better.

I still have to give my bolt a good WHACK every now and again, especially when I shoot the greenish lacquered cases.  Only got about 20 more rounds of that junk though, then it's nice Hungarian brass cased heavy ball.  Still berdan primed, but much better than the other junk."

You really want to strip the bolt rather to clean the cosmoline out of the inside - not just toss it in whole. The surplusrifle.com MN article should show you how to strip it.

I've left an assembled bolt in break fluid cleaner overnight and it still had cosmoline inside them when I took it apart the next day.

Take them apart, clean it out of the spring and channels. On some rifles (SKS comes to mind) it's important to prevent slam fires.

You never really get rid of cosmoline - at least out of the stock. You'll find it bleed from the stock on some hot summer day.

While cleaning my heavily gunked up M1 from CMP, I discovered that Simple Green does a decent job of cutting the cosmoline and other accumulations.

The stock was heavily mire in the stuff, too. I used a grey surface condition pad and a strong solution of Simple Green and water to get the stock cleaned up. It took three sessions because once the stock was wet the deposits got hard to see. I cleaned for a while and let it dry, then cleaned it again.

After the final cleaning step, I let the stock dry nearly all day and worked it over with a new dry grey surface conditioning pad, smoothing out all the rough spots that I could. It was pretty smooth to the touch.

The next day I brushed it down with a heavy coat of linseed oil and hung it up for about 10 minutes after which I wiped off the excess with a clean cloth.

It cam out looking great.

Midway just put a boatload of the russian 880 round spam cans on sale too. This is my primary surplus rifle as I have a half ton(litterally!) of ammo for it and the current availability is still plentiful and cheap.

Ahh... cheap ammo....  7.62x54R under 20c a round... about as cheap as the .308 bullets themselves these days - might be worth buying to take apart!

Sure, pull the bullets for some .30-06 or 7.5Swiss and fertilize the garden with the powder. But then again I don't know what to do with (live) berden primed brass.

(I wonder if surplus x54R is going to go the way of cheap of x39?  )

7.62x54R bullets are .310 diameter, while 7.62 NATO, 7.5x55 (Swiss) and .30-06 bullets are .308 diameter.

Don't even THINK of using them in 7.62 NATO, .308 Win, 7.5x55 or .30-06.

They CAN be used in .303 British, 7.65 Mauser or 7.7 Jap ammo, as those are .311 diameter.

FWIW, I've used a bunch of .308 dia bullets in 7.62x54R ammo, and they work well (and accurately) enough.

Don't forget to sharpen the @%&* outa the spike bayonet too.

Quote from: Nickle on March 13, 2009, 11:15:49 AM
7.62x54R bullets are .310 diameter, while 7.62 NATO, 7.5x55 (Swiss) and .30-06 bullets are .308 diameter.

Don't even THINK of using them in 7.62 NATO, .308 Win, 7.5x55 or .30-06.

They CAN be used in .303 British, 7.65 Mauser or 7.7 Jap ammo, as those are .311 diameter.

FWIW, I've used a bunch of .308 dia bullets in 7.62x54R ammo, and they work well (and accurately) enough.

I stand corrected.

I bit the bullet and purchased a scout scope mount and 4x scope from combat hunting today. The mount replaces the rear sight and doesn't require any cutting of the stock or drilling which I much prefer to avoid when dealing with a relic weapon. Scout mounts that fit in the rear sight holder just seem to make sense on all the Russian rifles. Let you guys know how it comes out.

Still finding cosmoline so I think you guys are right, it never goes away completely. But what can you expect after being soaked in it for fifty years.

There are two mounts that use the rear sight - a longer one and a shorter one.

Whichever, make sure you have it secure. They have a set screw that also buts against the reciever (not in it) - make sure this is extended enough when you sight it in - you can't get to it when the scope is on. You want to loctight this as well.

I'd like to hear how the 4x works - a lot of scopes aren't clear at 25yards (well, yeah, I do buy cheap scopes...)

Also - it's a bear to get the rear sight leaf back in - just so you know.

Im sure it is but that sight was planned for replacement the first day. Blade sights just arent something I would choose to have. That the mount also has a set of blades built is just gravy.

Be glad to let you know how it turns out. I am also planning to test that scope on a Saiga 308 using a simular if higher quality scout mount from Scout Scopes which also has a set of blade sights built in jic. The mount received excellent reviews from "Collecting and Shooting Military Surplus Rifles". http://www.surplusrifle.com/reviews2005/akscoutscopemnt/index.asp

Link for mount:
http://161.58.206.244/store/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=scoutscopes&Category_Code=akscope.

I am tinkering with a scout scope on a M91/30 that a family member installed (needs some readjustments and/or shimming)
From a standing position, with the scope on low power (like two) it is a very fast system to acquire targets. It seem more intuitive than a traditional scope.

The AK/Saiga scout scope set-up looks like a "chin weld" will be in order...

Have to wait and see on how it works out. Problems are fine just give me something to work out as long as the problems dont effect the pull-trigger-go-bang function.