Project Appleseed

Another one by azredhawk:

I'm not an authority on the topic, but I've put about 2000 rounds of reloads through my M1A.  This topic needs to be covered here, and I guess I will start it.

There are a lot of "special" concerns to keep in mind when loading for a semiautomatic rifle that don't exist when loading for a levergun or bolt rifle.  Improperly made handloads or reloads will have the potential of damaging a rifle, or injuring or killing the operator or bystanders.  Precision is mandatory when loading for semiautomatic rifles.

The big concerns to look out for:

1.  Due to the nature of the bolt design, the firing pin is actually free-floating inside of the bolt.  The faster the bolt moves, the farther forward the firing pin drifts when it is slammed to a stop as the bolt rotates into engagement.  The bolt should never be released onto a loaded cartridge that is sitting in the rifle's chamber.  If an operator intends to chamber a round, it should always be done from a magazine inserted into the magazine well.  The added weight of the cartridge will slow the bolt and reduce the amount of energy available for the firing pin to initiate a "slam fire."  Even when chambered properly, the firing pin may "bounce" off of a primer on occasion.  This can be witnessed at the range by chambering a single round, then manually ejecting it prior to firing it and inspecting the primer.  A slight indentation will probably be visible on the unstruck primer.

Due to this issue, many reloaders recommend the use of a special line of primers available to the consumer market... CCI Number 34 primers, for 7.62 NATO (.308 Winchester) and .30-06.  These primers have a primer cup that is stiffer and thicker than most consumer primers.  Some reloaders also suggest that Federal primers are the thinnest and most sensitive to accidental set-off, and should be avoided by semiautomatic rifle reloaders.  Despite this situation, many reloaders will use standard CCI, Remington or Winchester primers for their reloading.  Regardless of what primer you select, careful attention should be paid to the cleanliness and depth of the primer pocket to avoid a high primer that sticks out above the case head.  A high primer will be forcibly slammed by the bolt's inertia, or be set off by firing pin drift during the loading stroke, causing a "slam fire."  Many tools exist to eliminate poorly formed primer pockets.

2.  Gas system concerns.  In general, there are some things to avoid when loading for a semiautomatic gas gun.  Don't shoot lead bullets.  The lead will foul up the gas port, altering and diminishing the amount of gas sent into the piston to cycle the bolt.  Be careful of the burn rate of the powder you use to propel your bullet.  Too slow of a powder will cause pressure to spike in the gas port, resulting in a bent or broken operating rod or other damage to the rifle or shooter.  Too fast of a powder can result in poor extraction due to insufficient pressure, or also a pressure spike just like slow powder.  I do not offer this list as an authoritative list, but as starting points only, but these powders should be acceptable for use in a .308 gas rifle:

IMR-4895
H4895
Varget
H4064
Reloder15

Another concern to keep in mind for your gas system is the weight of your bullet.  Just as your powder's burn rate affects the pressure at the gas port, so does your bullet weight.  Military spec ball ammunition varies in weight from 145 to 152 grains, but hovers right around 150 grains.  The gas system of most of these rifles are optimized for 150 grain ammunition.  Shooting too light of a projectile (like a 110gr bullet) will have different results at the gas port than a 150gr bullet.  Depending on the burn rate of the powder you use and the amount, you can end up with too much or too little pressure at the gas port.  Heavier bullets will put more stress on the gas system and operating rod.  180 grain and heavier bullets should not be used in rifles not expressly tested and/or possibly modified to shoot them.  165 grain hunting bullets, 168gr match bullets and even 175gr match bullets can be used in rifles that are well maintained and inspected regularly.  Soft-tipped hunting bullets may exhibit a tendency to bind in the magazine, or get their tips deformed.  This will have detrimental effects to accuracy.  Polymer tipped hunting projectiles can aleviate this problem.

3.  Case sizing.  All cases should be resized in a full-length sizer die at a minimum.  Many shooters recommend using a "small base" sizing die, which sizes the bottom-most segment of a cartridge as much as possible.  This is especially useful when attempting to resize NATO brass that has been fired in machine guns.  Using a neck-only sizing die is not an option in most applications.  Also, due to the high velocity of the chambering process, it is imperative to not have a case that is too long to fit in the chamber.  This can create a chambering obstruction, stop the bolt from fully engaging safely, and if the primer is high... a slam fire results.  Cases should be checked prior to loading for overall length (OAL).  An empty case should never be longer than 2.015" OAL.  Case trimming becomes necessary at this point.

Cases get abused by semiautomatic rifles.  They are hammered into place by a high velocity bolt, fired, ripped from the chamber forcibly before shedding very much of their heat at all (making them very malleable during extraction), smashed against the top of a following case, and unceremoniously dumped on the ground to be stepped on or forgotten about until either the original owner picks it up, or some other reloader finds it.  The case rim gets visibly marred even from one firing.  After a certain point, it becomes possible or likely that the case head will separate from the rest of the case body.  This failure point varies with brass manufacturers and even by different lots of brass, but should be avoided.  "Imminent Case Head Separation" is a condition often referred to on the internet in reloading forums, and is a condition I know nothing about... I understand that it can somehow be detected during the reloading process by feeling the inside of the case with a paperclip somehow, but I'm not exactly clear on how.

These are the big 3 items that jump to my mind.  If anyone else can add, please do so.





ken grant


    Re: M14, M1 Garand and other gas guns: Obstacles and Dangers when reloading
<< Reply #1 on: May 27, 2007, 09:39:56 AM >> 

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I agree with most of what you had to say except for one thing. I don't agree that you always have to full length resize your cases.
Always resize them to fit YOUR RIFLE if you want longer case life and cut way down on seperated case heads or split cases.
Another way you can increase case life is to turn off the gas valve when shooting on the range and work the action like a bolt gun.
RCBS makes a case measuring tool called the Precision Mic that measures from the case base to the datum point on the shoulder to determine the headspace on your brass. You can read a difference when you measure cases fired with the valve on or off.
You can also use it to measure un-fired rds. and then remeasure after firing them. This will give you a start for setting your sizing die to size the cases to fit your rifle.
You start with the resizing die backed off and then slowly bring it down while measuring each time you run it down using the RCBS Tool. When you get a couple of thousants below the fired case measurement, you then lock the die in place.
This is the best way to  prevent case failures as much as possible.



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ken grant


    Re: M14, M1 Garand and other gas guns: Obstacles and Dangers when reloading
<< Reply #2 on: May 27, 2007, 08:45:50 PM >> 

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Another point I would like to bring up is the fact you can use the slower powders and heavier bullets in an M14 type rifle if you purchase an adjustable gas plug.
There is at least one on the market that some people have said works well. It gives you the option to tune your rifle to the load you are using just like a FAL or L1A1

 

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Nickle




     Re: M14, M1 Garand and other gas guns: Obstacles and Dangers when reloading
<< Reply #3 on: May 28, 2007, 11:53:37 AM >> 

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OK, a few comments on this. Generally speaking, it is a good piece, however, there are parts I slightly disagree wit.

Primers. CCI and Winchester use a different priming compound than the rest, and it is not as sensitive. You can use CCI or Winchester primers, and they are far less likely to slam fire. If you have a rifle that has a tendency to slam fire, then, yes, you should be using CCI 34 primers. DO NOT USE FEDERAL PRIMERS IN A MILITARY SEMI AUTO RIFLE. They are the MOST sensitive primers out there, and yes, they are the best primers for accurate bolt action rifles, but they do not like military semi-autos. Yes, you can also use Rem 7 1/2 primers in the AR.

Cast bullets. You can safely use cast bullets in a semi-auto. Do NOT use them in an AR or M1 Carbine, or any other gas operated rifle you can not clean EVERY piece of the gas system. They can be used in the M1A, M1 Garand, AK and SKS. It is NOT a practice recommended for the novice reloader, because on most of them you have to adjust the burning rate of your powder to get the right port pressure.

Powder. 100% correct for normal loads, using jacketed bullets. The variance is when using light loads and/or cast bullets, then you have to adjust the powder for the proper port pressure. NOT for the novice.

Resizing. You can get away with PARTIAL RESIZING (not neck sizing), if you measure the cases properly, and set them back part way back to Full Length sizing. If you don't 100% understand this, stick to FL sizing. If you have more than 1 rifle in this caliber, stick to FL sizing.

Bullets. I'll add that the Sierra 165 gr HPBT Game King works just like any other hollow point or polymer tipped bullet, and can be used. This bullet (unlike the 168 gr) expands.

AZ, good job on this. Most moderately experienced reloaders should take heed of your advice and follow it. I am pretty much an expert reloader, and have a pretty big library (between my fatrher the Type 6 FFL and myself), and I can vouch for the accuracy of the info.



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Bravo


    Re: M14, M1 Garand and other gas guns: Obstacles and Dangers when reloading
<< Reply #4 on: May 28, 2007, 08:28:09 PM >> 

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Quote from: Nickle on May 28, 2007, 11:53:37 AM
CCI and Winchester use a different priming compound than the rest, and it is not as sensitive.
Uh, no. Not unless something has changed recently - and due to legal issues I highly doubt that.

Back about '94 or so, I called 'the big 4' primer companies and asked about the priming compounds used. This was in response to some Remington primers frustratingly going dead at very low temperatures, and reports of Federal primers going dead in the heat.

At the time, chemists at Remington, Winchester (Olin), and Federal all spoke to me very openly. Nobody at CCI was willing to speak with me at all, so I can't speak about CCI other than my experiences with them (plenty OK).

The story I got from three of the four was that Winchester was the first to use lead styphnate (non-mercuric primers), and therefore patented the easiest to manufacture crystal structure. It just HAPPENED to also be the best latice for stability in all thermal conditions. After that came Remington, which took the next-best crystaline structure, and then Federal. Looking at the phase diagram for lead styphnate, it's easy to see why they did what they did, and how they act.

Different companies (I would assume) use a different percentage of glass in the pellet, but that's directly related to sensitivity, as well as cup thickness. IMO, probably more than the crystaline phases used.

I should mention that my largest customer is ATK - the Hercules powder (among many other things) people. At one point, my company was 'seriously looking into' production of lead styphnate. I'm really glad it never got past R&D, 'cause that's some NASTY stuff. Super sensitive, until stabilized. As in 'touch the glassware, and a bit of static electricity will detonate it" sensitive.

The fact that primers are as cheap as they are is a GOOD thing. If I were making them, they'd be a LOT more expensive.





Nickle


     Re: M14, M1 Garand and other gas guns: Obstacles and Dangers when reloading
<< Reply #5 on: May 28, 2007, 08:40:05 PM >> 

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Sounds like I stand corrected. I will say, and I'm about 100% sure I'm right that CCI and Winchester primers are less sensitive. I know I've seen that in print from a reliable source. I thought I'd seen the info on priming compound, but I could be wrong.

Bottom line is simple. Winchester and CCI primers are less likely to Slam Fire, and that is what you should use. I will stand by that, and several companies, including Lee back up that CCI and Winchester are less sensitive in this area.


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Bravo



    Re: M14, M1 Garand and other gas guns: Obstacles and Dangers when reloading
<< Reply #6 on: May 28, 2007, 08:57:47 PM >> 

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Quote from: Nickle on May 28, 2007, 08:40:05 PM
I will say, and I'm about 100% sure I'm right that CCI and Winchester primers are less sensitive.
And I'd agree with that statement 100%. That's been my experiences as well - not that I've had slamfires, but in cup softness anyway.

Federal is, by far, the softest I've tried. I haven't bought Federal in a LONG time, nor Remington, and have no inclination to change that now   





Nickle

     Re: M14, M1 Garand and other gas guns: Obstacles and Dangers when reloading
<< Reply #7 on: May 28, 2007, 09:04:24 PM >> 

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Bravo, Federal are absolutely, positively the BEST to use in a bolt gun, especially their Match primers. Very accurate. Just don't try them in a military semi-auto.


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Bravo


    Re: M14, M1 Garand and other gas guns: Obstacles and Dangers when reloading
<< Reply #8 on: May 28, 2007, 09:21:17 PM >> 

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You know, many people say that the Feds are better. You're not alone. Maybe I'm just weird, or have funky sticks or something. Anyway, I can't tell the difference between the 210M and the Winchester standard.

Maybe it's that I couldn't shoot a tenth of an inch unless you took me off coffee for a month 

In any case, I can't see any difference on the target, so I just go with Winchesters.




raf


     Re: M14, M1 Garand and other gas guns: Obstacles and Dangers when reloading
<< Reply #9 on: May 29, 2007, 06:35:38 AM >> 

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CCI Mil-Spec primers are made to be resistant to slam-fire by virtue of their construction, according to CCI.  Chem composition of the primer compound apparently has nothing to do with this part of it, rather it is the placement of the anvil within the primer.

CCI Mil-Spec primers also have a primer compound that is  much more forgiving of low temps than is the run-of-the-mill civilian primer.

Their ignition flame is roughly equivalent to that of a magnum primer, so you will have to throttle back a few tenths of a grain on powder, thus offsetting the slightly greater cost of Mil-Spec primers.

I use them in ALL my military caliber rifle cartridges, save distinctly labeled and seperately stored Match rounds.



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Bedford

    Re: M14, M1 Garand and other gas guns: Obstacles and Dangers when reloading
<< Reply #10 on: June 2, 2007, 10:50:51 PM >> 

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I blew up my first M1A because I had a case that was not properly resized.  I was very lucky and only had minor injuries.  That was about 10 years ago and I haven't got the nerve yet to shoot reloads yet in a semi auto.  With ammo prices like they are, I may have to give it another try.  I do have the small base dies now and plan on using them if I get back into it.

Any reloaded ammo for Semi Automatic that I own gets full
length resized.   Never have had a failure to function correctly
or is there a question fired in the many semis owned.

Quote from: Oohrah on June 20, 2007, 04:16:43 PM
Any reloaded ammo for Semi Automatic that I own gets full
length resized.   Never have had a failure to function correctly
or is there a question fired in the many semis owned.

I'll second that, 100%. Some rifles need ammo sized with a small base sizer. Do this only if you need to.

I have 2 semi auto 7.62 NATO rifles, an M14 and a FAL (L1A1). Neither requires me to use the small base sizer, so I don't.

Great topix, like to put in $.02 worth for what it is worth. Good friend of mine who sworn by M-16/ar-15 style rifles finally came to his senses and purchased an M1A several years ago. He now dabbles with bullet-powder swaps  using different bullets and powder matches in knocked down loads. He does his firing with gas-off and rightly so. I pointed out to him to stick to mil-spec brass, full sized or knocked down or face problems, then prodeeded to show him how his once-fired mil-spec would not rechamber without force. His bolt (stripped) remained open by more than 1/4 of an inch. An unclosed bolt or partly closed bolt is a hazard at the least.
My solution on resizing is check your results early and often. Not only should a round chamber easily with a stripped bolt, but they, unfired, should extract easily. A good set of precision measuring tools (mic, caliper) also proves to be money well spent. You need results into the .001ths to be effective.

This might be off topic but needs said. My advice, if you value your M1A is to not fire Wolf 308 hunting loads thru it. Neither gas-on nor gas-off !  It has been said many times that the 7.62x51 is a different animal than the 308. Take it as a fact. In a test firing of some reloads, I was asked to chrony som Wolf 308 hunting loads. They chambered easily, fired a little hotter at 2738 fps-2761 fps, but, extraction was difficult with gas-off. Thusly, this makes me think they put more pressure on the op rod when gas is on as well. These were nickle coated steel cases. Pointed out to this individual, I would not recommend using these in his M1A. If it don't say 7.62x51, stay clear of it  when buying new ammo.

Quote from: kissell on December 26, 2008, 08:22:02 AM
Great topix, like to put in $.02 worth for what it is worth. Good friend of mine who sworn by M-16/ar-15 style rifles finally came to his senses and purchased an M1A several years ago. He now dabbles with bullet-powder swaps  using different bullets and powder matches in knocked down loads. He does his firing with gas-off and rightly so. I pointed out to him to stick to mil-spec brass, full sized or knocked down or face problems, then prodeeded to show him how his once-fired mil-spec would not rechamber without force. His bolt (stripped) remained open by more than 1/4 of an inch. An unclosed bolt or partly closed bolt is a hazard at the least.
My solution on resizing is check your results early and often. Not only should a round chamber easily with a stripped bolt, but they, unfired, should extract easily. A good set of precision measuring tools (mic, caliper) also proves to be money well spent. You need results into the .001ths to be effective.

    It needs to be said more than once: neck thickness, if not kept to specs, will blow up your rifle!

    Over several reloadings, brass will migrate forward, thickening the neck. Resizing simply means the outside neck diameter is correct - but if the inside neck diameter is smaller (due to the thickening of the brass 'up forward'), the bullet may be held tight in the neck on firing, and pressures soar.

     Tell this to everyone you know who reloads - it's something that is often overlooked...

Some rifles are difficult to "work by hand" when you turn the gas off.  I've read the theories of "why" this is so but don't know it for a fact myself.

Fred's dead right about neck thickness.

Now, I'll say that 7.62 NATO and .308 Win are the same thing.

Some of the rifles were headspaced differently, and that makes some difference on that end, but the ammo is the same dimensions, with the disclaimer that SOME Commercial 308 ammo is loaded slightly too hot, or with powder of the wrong burn rate, for some of the 7.62 NATO rifles.

Bullet weight is also an issue, as heavier bullet weight can do damage as well. My recommendation is to stick to 145-175 grain bullets, and military surplus or American made commercial ammo.

The key to the powder burn rate, and bullet weights is a port pressure issue. Excessive port pressure can cause all sorts of damage, especially damaged operating rods on M1 and M14 type rifles. A broken operating rod on an M1 has been known to be fatal to left handed shooters.

Now, that Wolf ammo I wouldn't use in one of these rifles anyways, as it clearly isn't made for them. Use it, and you're just asking for trouble. Better to spend a little more money for the right ammo, or better, make that right ammo yourself.

I'd like to add 1 other thing to the M1A information. 

I have run an M1A for 17 years and never had a problem with ammo, be it commercial, mil-surp., or hand loads.  I advocate the use of mil-spec primers but never saw the real need for their use until last summer.

In addition to proper reloading practices and component selection you need to make sure that your rifle is in specification.  If you do have something out of spec. when reloading It would be better that your accuracy tell you that you were wrong instead of your equipment letting you know with a catastrophic failure.

I did all the M1A hand loading for our service rifle team and was over-ridden about which primers to use.  I had shooters / reloaders with a combined experience of over 130 years telling me that commercial primers were fine. Some even said that they use the Federal Gold Medal Match primers with no issues for thousands of rounds.

Last summer while I was in the pits pulling targets and my team-mate was firing, there was a very long pause after the mag-change during the rapid fire seated stage.  An announcement came over the pit speaker that target 10 (my target) had an explosion.

VERY FORTUNATELY, there was no injury.  My team-mate, dusted himself off,  picked up my rifle and finished the relay.  He didn't do well the rest of the match, probably because he was uncomfortable not knowing what the cause of the explosion was.  But a rifleman persists. And I was confident that my hand loads were not the cause.

During the subsequent investigation the following was found:

1. The 1st round from the 8 round magazine was fired out of battery
2. The bolt was almost closed so damage was limited to; bottom of magazine was blown out, remaining rounds pushed out onto the ground without any going off, Magazine split up both sides but stayed together, bolt slammed into back of receiver, elevation knob of sight was the exit point for the energy on the receiver. It split and flew off of the assembly & firing pin broken.
3. The ammunition had been re-loaded to specification on all accounts.
4. Commercial primers were used, however, were not the cause of the out of battery ignition.
5. After disassembly of rifle it was discovered that the bolt was either worn or intentionally modified by the previous owner. (see photos) The surface of the bolt that rides on the op-rod side rail of the receiver had a taper allowing the bolt to begin to rotate prematurely.  This condition allowed the firing pin to move forward earlier in the stroke than normal. Usually the web at the bottom of the receiver holds the firing pin back until the timing is correct.  The web has a taper cast or milled in the proper place to keep the firing pin back until the bolt is rotated in to battery (or very close to in battery).  The wear or modification altered this timing allowing the firing pin to strike the primer too soon.  It was likely that the firing pin struck the primer with a light but firm strike causing the round to fire.
6. It is VERY likely that the harder mil-spec primers would have prevented the round from going off.
7. Although the out of battery ignition prompted the investigation that revealed the root cause, the wear / modification should have been found during routine inspection.

Although the primers were not the cause they would have been an added precaution in preventing this issue.

Note: The area I am speaking of is next to the bolt roller, the bolt on the left is within spec. Notice that the bolt on the right has an area where the lip and rear section of the arm that the roller is mounted to has been either worn away or ground away intentionally.

The picture confuses me.  Isn't it the back of the locking lug that "rolls" over the edge of the receiver as it starts to rotate into position and lock up?

Its actually the movement of the op rod that "lifts" the right side of the bolt up (to unlock it), and then pushes it back down (to lock it up) as the roller is forced to follow the slot in the left side of the op rod moving rearward and then forward.

Having said the above.  I used Federal BR primers in my reloads for years till the place I bought them switched to CCI, then I used them for years.  No issues in my M1A.  My latest batches of reloads have used the CCI military primers and IMR 4895 or H4895 but they aren't reloaded for maximum accuracy.  Just 4 MOA and go bang every time I pull the trigger.

Every rifle is different.  What is safe and reliable in mine might not be in yours.  If you reload, reload for your rifle.  Learn what it eats and feed it what works.

As far as the neck wall thickness comments above.  Since you can't (very easily) measure the chamber of your rifle in that area, measure a factory load or two and record the info (outside diameter of the neck with the bullet in it).  Then as you cycle through your reloads (2nd, 3rd, 4th time you load the brass) measure the OD of the neck of your reloads and see how it compares to your factory load measurements.  That will give you an idea of what you need to remove from the neck to "get back to factory dimensions".  Also, in my experience, outside neck turning is a more uniform way to remove brass than neck reaming (removing metal from the inside of the neck.  The reamer can leave a rough surface and not necessarily remove metal in a way that leaves a uniform shaped/angled "hole".  Outside neck turning is done with a hardened steel pilot in the neck (no change to the surface the bullet is seated into) that insures the case stays centered and the newly "machined" case walls are uniform in thickness all the way down.

While case trimming (for length) is something I've done a lot of, outside neck turning is something I've only done while in pursuit of the tiniest groups I could get.

An easy check for neck thickness, take a loaded round and insert the bullet into the mouth of a fired case. If it slips in the neck the case neck is not to thick for the rifle it was fired in. If there is any drag either ream the neck or discard the case. This assumes the neck didn't get dinged on ejection.

Old Dog,

You are correct. The picture is of the bottom of the bolt.  The area that is ground / worn away on the bolt on the right is at the back of the lug. Apparently the raised lip that is more pronounced on the good bolt on the left is part of the rotation timing.  The roller initiates all the motion both opening and closing.  We measured the firing pin protrusion on both bolts as the the bolt starts to rotate into battery.  It was much more pronounced on the bolt with the missing material. 

I totally agree with you in knowing that every rifle is different, loading for your own rifle and learning what works. I just wanted to add the importance of inspection and maintenance.  Especially when hand loading. 

If anyone has any questions please PM me.

You're right, when I click on the picture all I was seeing was the bolt on the left side.

Looks like a purposeful (but incorrect mod) done for some reason known only to the guy who didn't really understand how the rifle works.  Think how much wear would have been on the receiver to wear the bolt that much.  You know, I'm not sure how many folks would notice something like this when buying a used rifle.

I wouldn't have been elated about that bolt even without the "modification".  Notice that little inclusion on the lug?
Do you KNOW how far into the metal it goes? NO!    Without you xray it or slice and look, you never will either.

Sam

Old Dog, Sam D,

We think it looks like an intentional modification too! Not to mention the general condition of the bolt!  My team-mate carried an M-14 during his last tour in Iraq and he didn't notice the modification when he bought his M1A used and started using it for matches.  Keeping on topic...  We felt that the CCI military spec. primers would have added a level of protection against the out of battery ignition.  So for all M1A and M1G Service Rifle loads the CCI #34's are now the only primers we will use - as long as we can get them.  Match Rifles have different requirements for now.  We do this so we can share ammo at a match / event without having to worry about who's ammo is who's and such.  Things like this may have substance for Appleseed applications when squadding with your friends.  Although I would never use someone else's hand loads that I didn't know. I would use my team-mates hand loads and I have. (no choice here - part of being on the team is sharing the work prepping and loading ammo, etc.) 

Food for thought.....

I realize many scorn Wolf ammo    However, for awhile primers in larger lots
of 5K were pretty much unavailable for awhile, especially the harder small rifle, used for .223s.   I bought some Wolf magnum primers due to a little known fact.  They are not really not mag. primers, as they contain the same amount of primer material as the regular small rifle primers.   However, the actual primer cup is of
harder material on par with those used for military.   They function so far 100%,
but I have not compared them for accuracy to the others I have used.   I have used some of their ammo 40 S&W and 7.62X39 when I didn't want to hunt for reloadable brass.   Although not the cleanest burning, not the terrible tales some
have told.   Resonable accuracy in most firearms they were used in.  Now most primers are back in stock with a larger increase in prices    Way of the world I guess, as everything it seems has a sticker creep that follows a shortage    Looks like our milsurp Greek and LC 30-06 will be gone in the next year to eighteen months    In fact it may be the last of the milsurp ammo period    The fired
cases could very well be the next, poor man's gold for reloaders

Big difference between Berdan primed Wolf products, and Boxer primed Wolf products.

For the most part, one is made in Russia, the other in one of the former Yugoslavian countries (Bosnia, IIRC). The Boxer stuff is fine.

Quote from: Fred on January 23, 2009, 10:31:26 AM
    It needs to be said more than once: neck thickness, if not kept to specs, will blow up your rifle!

    Over several reloadings, brass will migrate forward, thickening the neck. Resizing simply means the outside neck diameter is correct - but if the inside neck diameter is smaller (due to the thickening of the brass 'up forward'), the bullet may be held tight in the neck on firing, and pressures soar.

     Tell this to everyone you know who reloads - it's something that is often overlooked...

I've only reloaded my brass a couple times (2-3 per piece). I've never considered the thickness of the neck. I know firing it, stretches the brass down the throat, resizing it stretches it more. Trim, debur/chamfer and all set.

Does resizing the brass not correct the thickness during the process? I was under the impression this is what causes the stretching of the case during resizing. I know this is more of a reloading question, I may make a post and cross reference it.

m1agsr,
As far as I know, and I asked the question on the reloading threads, the way to change neck thickness in by neck turning. Agrivere's response was very detailed and accurate. I was going to include it in this posting, but there that is so much spam in the forum that it is like looking for the needle in the haystack.

Having said that, I haven't found any reference as to what the roper neck thickness is. The best advice I could find is to use as a goal about 75% neck thickness uniformity (about 25% "low spots").  But that was somebody's opinion, not a scientific finding. You'll need a special caliper to do that accurately. For .308s, this number appears to be 0.014.
aj

I realize this is a very old thread.  Wanted to add Hornady's Reloading Manual 10th Edition has a special section for Garand-safe .30-06 loads and a section for M1A-safe .308WIN loads.

The Accurate POwders manual also has a section in the back for service rifle loads and NRA hi power loads.  Very good data, the down side is that their manual is only for their powders.