Project Appleseed

I was recently talking to a scope guru and he told me something I've never heard mentioned before. He said: "the etchings on a scope reticle will always be more accurate than come ups in a turret." His opinion was to not buy 'target' scopes with no markings and to get something that includes moa/mil etchings. Learn to use reticle markings instead of turning turrets to get improved results.

I like the clean target reticle and never explored this topic. I thought turning dials was as good as glass markings but what he says makes sense. What do you guys think?

The mechanical linkages in the turrets are subject to tolerances, and tolerance stacking.  *Very* good scopes, with exceedingly high quality control, will have a turret system that provides for 97-99.99% accuracy at the center of its range.  Every click you make away from center stacks another .1-3% error on top of the error that you've already input.  This is why it is so important to get a 20MOA (or even 30MOA) mount for scopes that will routinely be used at extended range.  That said, most scope users will never notice the error in click values.  You'll pay a heavy premium for a scope that legitimately holds to better than 97% accuracy throughout its range, and there are very few manufacturers that are willing to advertise their scope's accuracy. 

I see what you mean Itsan. That's good info and makes me lean harder towards taking a good look at my scopes on hand and perhaps selling them to get glass with etchings. I'll see what I think of the Christmas tree reticle strike eagle I recently acquired.

I haven't had much trouble with turret spinning out to quarter mile but I can see how using a reticle would be more repeatable and very fast. Just memorize your holds or mark them on a dope sheet, hold it and fire away.

Scopes that you already have data for, with known/proven DOPE aren't the issue.

When you buy a new scope, and go to adjust 18MOA from your 100yd zero, because that's what your ballistic app said, *that's* where the accuracy of the turrets comes in.  If the scope has a 100% accuracy standard, it would take exactly 72 clicks to dial it in (assuming 4 clicks per minute).  Now, if the scope had, lets say a 98% accuracy, each click has the potential of being either 2% high, or 2% low, of the target, and those *stack* for every click.  So what?  Well, that could mean that your 18 MOA required only 68 clicks, or perhaps as much as 81 clicks.  Once you *know* how many clicks it takes, it doesn't matter, so long as the clicks are repeatable. 

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that there's no point in getting rid of a scope that you've already got DOPE for- it's a known quantity. 

Quote from: CountZero on April 19, 2023, 06:25:04 PM
I see what you mean Itsan. That's good info and makes me lean harder towards taking a good look at my scopes on hand and perhaps selling them to get glass with etchings. I'll see what I think of the Christmas tree reticle strike eagle I recently acquired.

I haven't had much trouble with turret spinning out to quarter mile but I can see how using a reticle would be more repeatable and very fast. Just memorize your holds or mark them on a dope sheet, hold it and fire away.

Oh sorry, I'm not having any issues I'm just gathering data/ideas expanding my knowledge. I don't mind swapping out things for better things even if the results on paper are marginal if at all. Funds are always limited so a little sell here buy there is totally normal for me

This made me wonder what else I may not know that others like yourself could enlighten me on the subject

The "X-Ring" channel on YouTube has a pretty good video on hold over vs dial.  It is a few years old now.

Quote from: Charles McKinley on April 21, 2023, 07:14:25 PM
The "X-Ring" channel on YouTube has a pretty good video on hold over vs dial.  It is a few years old now.

Perfect! I'll go look it up

Quote from: Charles McKinley on April 21, 2023, 07:14:25 PM
The "X-Ring" channel on YouTube has a pretty good video on hold over vs dial.  It is a few years old now.

Just finished checking that out. Interesting take on it. I get what he's saying, trying to aim at a point in the scope that doesn't have a cross section and may be between two hash marks is tough. I'll just have to play around with it and see what works. At the moment I only have one scope with any kind of markings so I'll have to put it on a center fire and go dork around see how it prints turning knobs versus holds.

What's the purpose of the scope? He may very well be correct, as the etching is probably a lithography process whereas the erector screws are a machining process, but the most important question is what is the purpose of the scope.

In PRS, yes you want some kind of Christmas tree reticle. In that sport speed is important as well as rapid adjustment for a miss. For Appleseed or NRA/CMP high power the course of fire is very different. You do not need a complicated reticle, in fact it's a distraction. It's much better to be able to focus on a central aiming point and concentrate on the sight picture.

Quote from: Maine.Dist.Rifleman on April 26, 2023, 11:57:38 AM
What's the purpose of the scope? He may very well be correct, as the etching is probably a lithography process whereas the erector screws are a machining process, but the most important question is what is the purpose of the scope.

In PRS, yes you want some kind of Christmas tree reticle. In that sport speed is important as well as rapid adjustment for a miss. For Appleseed or NRA/CMP high power the course of fire is very different. You do not need a complicated reticle, in fact it's a distraction. It's much better to be able to focus on a central aiming point and concentrate on the sight picture.

Great question. Its a bit of both curiosity and to use in events like PRS where I will be shifting from target to target at various ranges.

Quote from: ItsanSKS on April 19, 2023, 06:45:30 PM
Scopes that you already have data for, with known/proven DOPE aren't the issue.

When you buy a new scope, and go to adjust 18MOA from your 100yd zero, because that's what your ballistic app said, *that's* where the accuracy of the turrets comes in.  If the scope has a 100% accuracy standard, it would take exactly 72 clicks to dial it in (assuming 4 clicks per minute).  Now, if the scope had, lets say a 98% accuracy, each click has the potential of being either 2% high, or 2% low, of the target, and those *stack* for every click.  So what?  Well, that could mean that your 18 MOA required only 68 clicks, or perhaps as much as 81 clicks.  Once you *know* how many clicks it takes, it doesn't matter, so long as the clicks are repeatable. 

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that there's no point in getting rid of a scope that you've already got DOPE for- it's a known quantity. 

Quote from: CountZero on April 19, 2023, 06:25:04 PM
I see what you mean Itsan. That's good info and makes me lean harder towards taking a good look at my scopes on hand and perhaps selling them to get glass with etchings. I'll see what I think of the Christmas tree reticle strike eagle I recently acquired.

I haven't had much trouble with turret spinning out to quarter mile but I can see how using a reticle would be more repeatable and very fast. Just memorize your holds or mark them on a dope sheet, hold it and fire away.

This, precisely. People think tolerances all stack one way, and are random. They're not. A particular scope will have tolerances throughout the range, but, if in tolerance, will perform acceptably, and, to the above point, repeatedly. Wringing the optic/rifle/ammo combo out will yield the right adjustments for range.

It's also worth noting that the reticle, while it MAY be more precise in terms of MOA adjustment to a known quantity, is a lot less flexible. I would not get a Christmas tree reticle for most of my gear because my ammo bullet weight might change, my brand or reload might change, the weather might change. If I need 7.25 MOA to get out to 400 instead of 7, a turret can do that and a reticle can't, and it may go .25 MOA off later and need more or less.

That being said, the reason there is so much variety, and varying opinions, on gear is that some setups are better for some things, and not for others. I am not yet high speed, low drag enough for PRS, so the reticle might be ideal there; this man does not know.

Quote from: Big John on April 27, 2023, 02:35:48 PM
It's also worth noting that the reticle, while it MAY be more precise in terms of MOA adjustment to a known quantity, is a lot less flexible. I would not get a Christmas tree reticle for most of my gear because my ammo bullet weight might change, my brand or reload might change, the weather might change. If I need 7.25 MOA to get out to 400 instead of 7, a turret can do that and a reticle can't, and it may go .25 MOA off later and need more or less.

That being said, the reason there is so much variety, and varying opinions, on gear is that some setups are better for some things, and not for others. I am not yet high speed, low drag enough for PRS, so the reticle might be ideal there; this man does not know.

I'll say I don't know the answer either (if there is a right one), but I'm experimenting. I think this is inaccurate: "If I need 7.25 MOA to get out to 400 instead of 7, a turret can do that and a reticle can't"

The reason I say that is inaccurate is I have a christmas tree reticle and the markings on the version I chose are mils (ebr-7c). Elevation hashes every half mil and windage is every 0.2 mil. There's an MOA version of this same reticle that has MOA relative markings. So any dope sheet works the same on the glass as it does dials.

That said it is harder to focus on a particular marker than a hairline center hold. I went to a 50/100 yard event yesterday and was using a 1.9 mil hold when shifting from 50 to 100 and it worked out pretty well. Two events that afternoon with 9 competitors in my class, I managed to get 2nd place in both. Point difference was only a spread of 3 each time making it a very close match.

I've been picking up some knowledge from the various people who have a lot more trigger time than I do so absorbing some wisdom here and there. So far I have yet to see a shooter who is scoring well that's not using some kind of marked up reticle. So I am watching for the outlier, someone scoring well with a clean target reticle to get their opinion and why they are using it.

Quote from: CountZero on April 30, 2023, 03:11:03 PM
So far I have yet to see a shooter who is scoring well that's not using some kind of marked up reticle. So I am watching for the outlier, someone scoring well with a clean target reticle to get their opinion and why they are using it.

It's not the reticle that helps them shoot well, it's proper application of marksmanship fundamentals. Someone that knows how to shoot can certainly use one of these reticles, but it's not a good choice because it's too easy to get confused at what you are looking at.

The most popular reticle for cmp/nra service rifle shooting is a 7.5 moa doughnut with a .75moa dot. All those competitors dial their elevation changes for yard lines. I don't know of anyone that is shooting across the course that uses one of those PRS type reticles. It's just too easy to make a mistake and focus on the wrong thing. Same thing for long range shooters, they typically have target dots and dial for elevation.

That being said, for PRS there are advantages to having a reticle like that. For somthing like appleseed or traditional bullseye marksmanship competition, it's not the best choice.

Quote from: Maine.Dist.Rifleman on May 01, 2023, 01:31:59 PM

It's not the reticle that helps them shoot well, it's proper application of marksmanship fundamentals. Someone that knows how to shoot can certainly use one of these reticles, but it's not a good choice because it's too easy to get confused at what you are looking at.

Ah right, I should have qualified my statement with shooters in the PRS style events, you're absolutely correct about the confusion. It's just me exploring the subject on here seeing what everyone else thought about reticle use and their experiences in what format. Shifting quickly between 50 and 100 yards adjusting the knobs hurts your time so hold overs really help, but they're also easy to screw up!

It would be interesting to see appleseed adopt a course of fire that's something like it, shifting from 25/50/100 with rimfire. Maybe too advanced outside scope of AS program, but if riflemen was a qualification to attend at least they're forewarned it's not the usual format and come somewhat prepared.

Count there are trade offs to everything.  As pointed out above what do you need it to do and do you have the skills to do it.  My first suggestion is if you are going to use the reticle for holds get a FFP (First Focal Plane) scope.  FFP the sub tensions stay the same no matter what power you have it on.

I also wouldn't recommend it until you have mastered the fundamentals.  You no longer have to think about getting into correct position and get into the rifleman's bubble and use the 6 steps of firing the shot and you are shooting at or above the level of your equipment and ammo combination.  I strongly suggest getting an airgun (Daisy853 refurbished from CMP $140 to your door and 500 Crosman pellets for under $8) to get you to this level.

Once there you can put an inexpensive (not cheap) scope that has a marked reticle and on an airgun do all the hold over practicing you want in less than 100 yards.

I have been playing with an Element Helix with the MOA recticle and can take my 10/22 from under 25 meters to 200 by dialing or using the reticle.

Have you found the X-Ring video yet or do you want me to post a link.

I agree this is outside the scope of Appleseed, CMP and NRA style of shooting but they are far from the end all be all of the rifle shooting world.

If you are going to dial I highly recommend a zero stop and a turret that shows what rotation you are on.  My Leupold Mark AR does not and it is more than a full rotation form 25 M to 200 M which can cause some issues if you get lost on your dial.

As the reticle appears smaller as you turn down the magnification an illuminated reticle helps a lot on lower powers.

Look for competitions (NRL, PRS, Field Target) in you area and go talk to the shooters and ask if you may look through their scopes and what they like and what they don't so you can make an informed decision.  WARNING: do not look through glass you cannot afford.

Quote from: CountZero on April 30, 2023, 03:11:03 PM

I think this is inaccurate: "If I need 7.25 MOA to get out to 400 instead of 7, a turret can do that and a reticle can't"

I've been picking up some knowledge from the various people who have a lot more trigger time than I do so absorbing some wisdom here and there.

These two statements don't jibe. Something we see frequently here is people seeking validation for their thinking. They don't say that, of course, they say they are seeking information, but, it becomes apparent that they only want to hear stuff that validates their choices in gear, their methods of shooting, and/or their direction that they want Appleseed to "evolve" because it has "fallen behind" in "tactical shooting." In your case, I showed that a turret system delivers more precise adjustment than a reticle, and explained how that is necessary for what we do in this program. I will also add that using a turret system for fixed distance shooting is superior because it is impossible to mis-pick your crosshairs (since you only have one) while shooting.

Appleseed is fundamentals, and it is that way on purpose. 3 position loop sling field shooting IS old fashioned, but we do it because it works, because it can be built upon for any of the "high speed, low drag" shooting sports of today, and because we really aren't a shooting program. We're an American Heritage program, the guns are there because it's a skill to be learnt that our ancestors had, and that they used to obtain freedom, but our whole point is that we don't want to have to do that again. So, using the latest style gear is missing the point of the program, and it's also giving you a crutch. I shoot a better Rifleman score with a scope than irons, and with a nice trigger than a stock trigger. What does that say about me? It says I need more time with stock triggers and iron sights. Do you?

Quote from: Big John on May 02, 2023, 10:38:29 PM

Quote from: CountZero on April 30, 2023, 03:11:03 PM

I think this is inaccurate: "If I need 7.25 MOA to get out to 400 instead of 7, a turret can do that and a reticle can't"

I've been picking up some knowledge from the various people who have a lot more trigger time than I do so absorbing some wisdom here and there.

These two statements don't jibe. Something we see frequently here is people seeking validation for their thinking.

No problem, I'm not trying to validate any purchase. Consider the topic closed, no biggie to me at all.

I truthfully was looking for just an open honest conversation, oh well. If we ever meet in person perhaps I can show you what I was talking about above and demonstrate it in person. Pretty weird how this all went sideways, but I guess thats the internet!

Quote from: Charles McKinley on May 02, 2023, 09:55:03 PM
Count there are trade offs to everything.  As pointed out above what do you need it to do and do you have the skills to do it.  My first suggestion is if you are going to use the reticle for holds get a FFP (First Focal Plane) scope.  FFP the sub tensions stay the same no matter what power you have it on.

I also wouldn't recommend it until you have mastered the fundamentals.  You no longer have to think about getting into correct position and get into the rifleman's bubble and use the 6 steps of firing the shot and you are shooting at or above the level of your equipment and ammo combination.  I strongly suggest getting an airgun (Daisy853 refurbished from CMP $140 to your door and 500 Crosman pellets for under $8) to get you to this level.

Once there you can put an inexpensive (not cheap) scope that has a marked reticle and on an airgun do all the hold over practicing you want in less than 100 yards.

I have been playing with an Element Helix with the MOA recticle and can take my 10/22 from under 25 meters to 200 by dialing or using the reticle.

Have you found the X-Ring video yet or do you want me to post a link.

I agree this is outside the scope of Appleseed, CMP and NRA style of shooting but they are far from the end all be all of the rifle shooting world.

If you are going to dial I highly recommend a zero stop and a turret that shows what rotation you are on.  My Leupold Mark AR does not and it is more than a full rotation form 25 M to 200 M which can cause some issues if you get lost on your dial.

As the reticle appears smaller as you turn down the magnification an illuminated reticle helps a lot on lower powers.

Look for competitions (NRL, PRS, Field Target) in you area and go talk to the shooters and ask if you may look through their scopes and what they like and what they don't so you can make an informed decision.  WARNING: do not look through glass you cannot afford.

This was a very constructive and helpful post! Thank you sir. I did find the xring video you spoke about, it was great!

Quote from: CountZero on May 03, 2023, 04:15:16 PM

Quote from: Big John on May 02, 2023, 10:38:29 PM

Quote from: CountZero on April 30, 2023, 03:11:03 PM

I think this is inaccurate: "If I need 7.25 MOA to get out to 400 instead of 7, a turret can do that and a reticle can't"

I've been picking up some knowledge from the various people who have a lot more trigger time than I do so absorbing some wisdom here and there.

These two statements don't jibe. Something we see frequently here is people seeking validation for their thinking.

No problem, I'm not trying to validate any purchase. Consider the topic closed, no biggie to me at all.

I truthfully was looking for just an open honest conversation, oh well. If we ever meet in person perhaps I can show you what I was talking about above and demonstrate it in person. Pretty weird how this all went sideways, but I guess thats the internet!

If you wish to progress in becoming an instructor, you will need a teachable attitude. I have explained to you multiple things which you have ignored because you do not agree with them. There is nothing "sideways" and it is not "the internet" at fault, you are simply focused on gear when you may not have even made Rifleman yet. When you are ready to move further, we will be here to help.

Quote from: Big John on May 03, 2023, 04:58:17 PM

If you wish to progress in becoming an instructor, you will need a teachable attitude. I have explained to you multiple things which you have ignored because you do not agree with them. There is nothing "sideways" and it is not "the internet" at fault, you are simply focused on gear when you may not have even made Rifleman yet. When you are ready to move further, we will be here to help.

I guess I'll reply one more time because you made me laugh. The purpose of this thread was gear so of course I'm focused on gear silly bean! Relax dude, I always have a teachable attitude, don't judge a person by a few paragraphs on a forum. No hard feelings at all on this end, we ever get together perhaps we can both laugh as we shoot for distinguished badges

I blame myself for this, I'm terrible at communication. My apologies to all who may come across this abomination of a thread